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I am having a disagreement with a PC who has a 1st level barbarian with 30 hit points.
I think most of the issue comes from our interpretation of "hit die" in the improved toughness feat. So, I come to the playground to set me straight.
He has a barbarian, 12 hp at 1st level. +2 hp from his Con bonus (14). he took toughness as a feat (so +3, now 17), and improved toughness (from Libris Mortis), which he says gives him 12 hitpoints (I assume his argument is "a barbarian has a d12 hit die, so, 12 points). He then seems to tack on an additional hitpoint because improved toughness "also give 1 hitpoint per level".
I read it that he would gain 1 hp with the feat, because he is a 1 hit die person at level 1.
I copied his answer to my question "How does your 1st level barbarian have 30 hitpoints?"
Answer: 12 from full hit die, 12 from improved toughness which gives a hit die equal to the level it is taken,1 for improved toughness which also gives 1 per level 3 from toughness for being a bear totem barbarian, and 2 from CON bonus.
Your PC. Improved toughness gives you an amount of extra HP equal to your number of Hit dice, not the maximum of your hit Die. He should get +1, not +12.
You gain hit points equal to your hit dice. Each time you gain a hit die, you gain a point. Lose a hit die, lose a hit point. He does not gain 12 hit points, he probably just misinterpreted the rules. But it definitely does NOT give you more than 1 point per die.
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2e PHB fighter avatar by Kymme.
One way to show that his interpretation of the feat is incorrect is to point out that the word "dice" is plural, so the sentence "You gain a number of hit points equal to your current Hit Dice" cannot be referring to the specific die he gained at the level he took the feat.
To get at the player's interpretation directly, I believe he's not parsing the following sentence correctly:
Quote:
Each time you gain a HD (such as by gaining a level), you gain 1 additional hit point.
The player is implicitly adding an "and" to the middle of the sentence, which creates an ambiguous ruling where each time... something happens (presumably when you gain a level) you gain an extra HD. The "and" isn't there, which means the playground's interpretation is correct.
You want to direct your player's attention to the Glossary in the PHB.
Hit Die/Dice (HD): In the singular form, a die rolled to generate
hit points. In the plural form, a measure of relative power that is
synonymous with character level for the sake of spells, magic items,
and magical effects that affect a certain number of Hit Dice of
creatures.
__________________ “No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.” ― Steven Brust
"In God we trust. All others we investigate." - United States Army Military Police Corps
Your player doesn't understand what Hit Dice are. This is a very deep misunderstanding that will impact every interaction he has with the game. One of the main purposes of my Monster Handbook is to introduce players to the Hit Dice system, I suggest you direct your player to read the relevant sections.
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Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor
Meet My Monstrous Guide to Monsters. Everything you absolutely need to know about Monsters and never thought you needed to ask.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf
One of the unwritten rules of Giantitp is that Urpriest is always right.
I'd just like to throw another vote in for "read Urpriest's guide"; I DM'ed for four years and didn't completely understand the HD/class level/level adjustment/CR system until I read his guide.
Knowledge (local) being trained only, and not a class skill for many classes, means that your average human may well not be able to identify other humans! This may explain the exceptional quantity of half-human hybrids.
And since you can't take the same feat more than once... he loses 12 hit points.
Is this in the rules somewhere? I always thought you could take a feat as many times as you'd like, it's just generally pointless since bonusses from the same source do not stack.
If you could take feats more then once, why would some feats specifically say you can take them more then once, and if their effects stack or not?
Like Toughness:
Quote:
Toughness [General]
Benefit: You gain +3 hit points.
Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.
I don't think its ever actually spelled out in the rules, but all the feats that say "You can take this feat multiple times." seems to point out that normally you can only select most feat one time.
If you could take feats more then once, why would some feats specifically say you can take them more then once, and if their effects stack or not?
I don't think its ever actually spelled out in the rules, but all the feats that say "You can take this feat multiple times." seems to point out that normally you can only select most feat one time.
It's actually because of this line in the PHB (p 87): "Unlike a skill, a feat has no ranks. A character either has a feat or does not."
So taking a feat multiple times has no effect unless there is a specific exception made to explain what happens when you take it more than once.
__________________ “No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.” ― Steven Brust
"In God we trust. All others we investigate." - United States Army Military Police Corps
It's +3 for toughness, and +1/Hit Die for Improved Toughness. This is basically +1/Level, provided that LA isn't involved. So: 12 HP for Barbarian, +1 for Improved Toughness, +3 for Toughness, +2 for constitution, 18 total, plus 1d12+3 per level for the foreseeable future.
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Fudge Assistant in the Playground.
You build a first level fighter with two flaws who takes Toughness 5 times and I will build a first level fighter with or without flaws who will kick your fighter's @$$...
5 feats for 15 hp... What a waste!
__________________ “No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.” ― Steven Brust
"In God we trust. All others we investigate." - United States Army Military Police Corps
You build a first level fighter with two flaws who takes Toughness 5 times and I will build a first level fighter with or without flaws who will kick your fighter's @$$...
5 feats for 15 hp... What a waste!
The build really suffers because it gets no familiar.
Really the way the player wants to use toughness doesn't hurt to much and makes Toughness/Imp Toughness a better feat (note: better not a good feat)... Really HP in 3.5 doesn't matter since so much stuff bypasses HP.
Plus he is a Barbarian so throwing him a bone wouldn't be to bad...
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Official clergy member of the church of Thor the Electric Hate
You build a first level fighter with two flaws who takes Toughness 5 times and I will build a first level fighter with or without flaws who will kick your fighter's @$$...
5 feats for 15 hp... What a waste!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthinwurer
I'll take you up on that bet. Best two out of three, 32PB, standard starting gold, and two traits and flaws?
An half-orc Fighter 1 with 20 str (after racials) a greatsword deals about 14 damage per attack with an attack bonus of +6 (7 if he gets weapon focus), he can kill the toughness X 5 in about 3 rounds. In D&D the best defence is usually the best offence.
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1st level barbarian, 30 hp?
It's not the sides of the die that the feat is based on.
What a waste!
