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From time to time i read in forums about the use of bag of holding...
even in RL games other players and occasional DMs seems to only know about 'em only...
WHat about Heward’s Handy Haversack? (DMG pg.259)
In my opinion they're great items..
well... it costs 2k (VS 2,5k of B.o.H.1) and holds the half...
BUT...
Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does
not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does.
Also it weights 5 lbs (VS 15 of B.o.H.1) and because its a backpack it frees those 2lbs
from the ordinary backpack you used to carry...
the way i see it its a very good item for a llooww str PC (see Halfling with 5 str)..
dunno... whats your opinion?
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I had my players woke up on a beach with total amnesia with only thing to remember that smthing raided their convoy ship during a storm.. and told em: "Survive!"
HHH for all of your gear, BOH for loot that you don't expect to need to pull out during combat. Just remember not to try to store your BOH inside your HHH!!!
__________________ “No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.” ― Steven Brust
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That may have been the case in earlier editions, but I don't think there are any adverse effects placing a Heward's inside of a Bag of Holding in 3.5.
The only explicit interaction in 3.5 is the Portable Hole / Bag of Holding. There's a note in the Rope Trick spell that demands a table ruling, however, which basically means such interactions are up to the individual DM... and a lot of them are old school in that regard.
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Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
That may have been the case in earlier editions, but I don't think there are any adverse effects placing a Heward's inside of a Bag of Holding in 3.5.
Actually, the bad effects are from Portable Hole + Bag of Holding. The only actual ruling concerning BoH and HHH is, afaik, FAQ-based and in favor of the two being allowed in combination.
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Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
HHH is better and is pretty much standard gear on most characters. The problem is that D&D has no guide on what's standard gear, feats or spell. They just give you a huge list and let you sort this out. One of the creators mentioned this problem saying that they wanted to reward system mastery but he regrets it and really they should have provided some sort of guidance instead. This quotation is taken way out of context all the time to claim intentional system unbalance btw. Really what it means is that you should get your weapon and armor first and the ring of the ram second, not that the ring of the ram is unbalanced or underpowered. I love that ring. Anyway it's a real shame that there was no such guidance and 3.5 has such a steep learning curve for new players.
As for putting extradimensional spaces into eachother the rules only clearly define bag of holding + portable hole. There's a brief mention in rope trick that putting one extradimensional space into another is dangerous, but no specific details nor a general rule elsewhere like 2e had. So some people like to fill in the details themself and claim they have RAW support, but in fact it is vague. There's a FAQ entry that says any combination goes boom and an article that suggests ignoring all mentions of trouble. In fact the designers didn't care that much about it so the DM should decide. I'd be a stickler for carrying logistics and say "boom, astral plane rift". But many others hate bookkeeping, allow bags in bags and don't tend to worry much about how you carry stuff.
I soft banned HHHs in one game simply because they had become so ubiquitous and I was bored with them.
If you take the opposite view to Skip BTW then your party can have Astral travel with a 2nd level spell and a disposable item. This could be quite fun.
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π = 4
Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.
My advice: never get a Bag of Holding. There's too much chance of destruction and loss. As a DM, any time I've got archers I'll have them check to see if they Spot anything that looks like a Bag of Holding among the PCs' possessions, and target those Bags.
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If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. All contents are lost forever.
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An object’s Armor Class is equal to 10 + its size modifier + its Dexterity modifier.
A Bag of Holding is a Small object (2' x 4'), giving it +1 to its AC, or 11 + the holder's DEX mod. Since it's made of cloth not more than ½" thick, it has hardness 0 and only 1 hit point. In other words, these are vulnerable items which might deprive you of significant resources when shot. Any savvy opponent is going to target them.
If you need more storage than individual Heward's Handy Haversacks can supply, get a Portable Hole. It's more cost-effective for the volume, and when it's tucked into an inside pocket it can't be targeted at all.
I pretty much always look for a Heward's Handy Haversack, thanks to the move-action withdrawal of items.
I basically never look for bags of holding, and have only ever gotten them as a result of taking them off a dead body. If I'm actively seeking out a way to hold a whole lot of stuff, I generally seek alternative methods - packmules, carts, hoard gullets, etc. at low levels, and portable holes at high levels.
As a DM, any time I've got archers I'll have them check to see if they Spot anything that looks like a Bag of Holding among the PCs' possessions, and target those Bags.
This makes absolutely no sense from the archer's perspective, most of the time.
The items in the bag are unlikely to be used in battle, thanks to the action cost and AoO. As a result, targeting them means giving up opportunities to just attack your opponents (improving your odds of killing them and therefore getting out with your own skin), in order to hurt the opponents' long-term odds (and eliminate your own loot, since they're not going to get whatever's in the bag after destroying it). That's not a choice most are going to make, particularly not if they are not part of a larger organization looking to thwart the PC's long-term aims.
Haversack is your 'the weight of my personal gear no longer matters' item- once you get one you can start carrying around that 200 feet of rope and 20 iron spikes and Healer's Kit and spare torches and sachets of miscellaneous herbs and.. all the other stuff you want to have with you to be generally prepared and hand-wave off the "How/where are you carrying all that stuff??" question with "it's in the magic backpack."
Bag of Holding is the "the weight of the party's loot no longer matters" item- it's what lets you ransack that ancient library for rare books or carry away a dragon's bed without having to hire a village-worth of teamsters to haul it for you (although if your DM is paying attention you might have to anyway; the weight limits of a Bag of Holding are actually pretty easy to exceed once you start talking about significant numbers of GP.. as Curmudgeon says, a Portable Hole is actually better for this particular purpose, and should be switched to as soon as the party budget allows.)
This makes absolutely no sense from the archer's perspective, most of the time.
The items in the bag are unlikely to be used in battle, thanks to the action cost and AoO.
I disagree quite strongly here. Secondary storage is precisely where someone would carry non-primary weapons, such as those needed to bypass specific types of damage resistance, or unwieldy specialty weapons like Tanglefoot Bags (4 lbs. each) or caltrops. Taking out a Bag of Holding in the surprise round can prevent your enemies from responding with maximal effectiveness.
If I'm a melee combatant attacked by Fey archers, I'm going to want to get a cold iron weapon in my hands before closing with them. It's a single move action, and archers are going to attack long before they're close enough to be able to make an AoO; provoking won't be an issue.
See if the rogue can get his hands on one of those fancy kobold enveloping pits. Those are even better than portable holes but require being a kobold, being lawful evil, or having UMD as well as being a relic.
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Originally Posted by kardar233
I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
No, any savvy DM(that's also meta-gaming his NPCs) is going to target them.
Savvy opponents aren't typically aiming to inflict the most financial harm before dying to fully healthy opponents. Savvy opponents are typically aiming to:
-Live
-Defeat
-Plunder
In about that order. Spending precious time doing something that runs counter to all 3 of those objectives is not something most people do. Sure, you could think of situations where spite-ing the PCs is the main objective, but most of the time? Not so much.
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Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
Yeah, it makes absolutely no sense to do something that A) will prolong combat and B) will significantly decrease any reward you get for surviving.
Besides, people who would think to switch to a cold-iron or whatever backup weapon tend to have the strength score to carry them around without a problem.
Plus, this problem is easily solved by place the bag of holding within another ordinary bag. Now it can't be targeted.
And there are some corner cases where targeting the bag can help with the first two objectives (the fey archers given, perhaps), but those are not the norm. And Curmudgeon specifically said always.
No, any savvy DM(that's also meta-gaming his NPCs) is going to target them.
Savvy opponents aren't typically aiming to inflict the most financial harm before dying to fully healthy opponents.
I don't see where you're getting "financial harm" or "meta-gaming" from my arguments. How is it unreasonable for a Fey archer to want to strip the PCs of their cold iron backup weapons at the start of the battle? It just seems like a tactic that any savvy opponent would take to improve their chances of winning, since the cost (1 arrow) is very low and the potential improvement in combat odds is at least moderate. Also, targeting flimsy objects is viable at any distance, while targeting creatures may be best when they get to shorter range (generally the case if the archers have precision damage such as sneak attack or skirmish).
And there are some corner cases where targeting the bag can help with the first two objectives (the fey archers given, perhaps), but those are not the norm. And Curmudgeon specifically said always.
There are corner cases where stripping off all your armor and clucking like a chicken is also the way to go.
Unless you're running a high-level Oblivion-like campaign setting, where even the poorest bandits have the fanciest armor around, those fey archers aren't going to be expecting random people to have cold-iron weapons. And if those aren't random people they're up against, then those fey archers will be operating under the assumption that their opponents are also holding cold-iron weapons.
Also, when it comes to unwieldy ammunition, SOP is to keep one readily accessible, and the rest in the bag to be replenished after the fight. If you're burning move actions to retrieve items during a fight, well, you deserve what you get once your opponents discover you really are that dumb.
My advice: never get a Bag of Holding. There's too much chance of destruction and loss. As a DM, any time I've got archers I'll have them check to see if they Spot anything that looks like a Bag of Holding among the PCs' possessions, and target those Bags. A Bag of Holding is a Small object (2' x 4'), giving it +1 to its AC, or 11 + the holder's DEX mod. Since it's made of cloth not more than ½" thick, it has hardness 0 and only 1 hit point. In other words, these are vulnerable items which might deprive you of significant resources when shot. Any savvy opponent is going to target them.
This is only a problem if your DM is a jerk.
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I don't see where you're getting "financial harm" or "meta-gaming" from my arguments. How is it unreasonable for a Fey archer to want to strip the PCs of their cold iron backup weapons at the start of the battle?
Because, those items will not be in the bag. If your party is doing it that way, they are the exception, because it's just dumb.
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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon
It just seems like a tactic that any savvy opponent would take to improve their chances of winning, since the cost (1 arrow) is very low and the potential improvement in combat odds is at least moderate.
The cost is 1 arrow, one bag of holding, and all the contents inside. Also, your life, because if you're up against a competent party, you have done nothing to improve your chances in this fight, and you've wasted your attack. If you're up against an incompetent party that likes to keep its weapons out of easy reach, then you don't need to take out the bag in the first place.
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Also, targeting flimsy objects is viable at any distance,
And detect magic has a range of 60 feet. So no, targeting a bag of holding amongst the various other mundane bags a single individual, let alone an entire party, is holding is not viable.
And detect magic has a range of 60 feet. So no, targeting a bag of holding amongst the various other mundane bags a single individual, let alone an entire party, is holding is not viable.
Who said anything about Detect Magic? EveryBag of Holding is about 2' x 4', so you only aim arrows at bags of the approximate right size. As I've said, the cost (1 arrow; no spells cast) is very low and the potential improvement in combat odds is at least moderate. The archers won't know what the Bag holds, but they do know that if they destroy it then whatever it held can't be used against them.
Who said anything about Detect Magic? EveryBag of Holding is about 2' x 4', so you only aim arrows at bags of the approximate right size. As I've said, the cost (1 arrow; no spells cast) is very low and the potential improvement in combat odds is at least moderate. The archers won't know what the Bag holds, but they do know that if they destroy it then whatever it held can't be used against them.
If they don't that's that much more damage they could be not having to inflict though. I'd almost always take bonus damage over a small amount of likelihood that an item which costs the enemy a move action might slightly inconvenience me.
__________________
If you see me talking about Shaper Psions, assume that anything not poison immune within 100 feet will be dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kardar233
I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
Who said anything about Detect Magic? EveryBag of Holding is about 2' x 4', so you only aim arrows at bags of the approximate right size. As I've said, the cost (1 arrow; no spells cast) is very low and the potential improvement in combat odds is at least moderate. The archers won't know what the Bag holds, but they do know that if they destroy it then whatever it held can't be used against them.
What do you do once a group has grasped your trick and each character carries 20 mundane 2' x 4' bags?
If they don't that's that much more damage they could be not having to inflict though. I'd almost always take bonus damage over a small amount of likelihood that an item which costs the enemy a move action might slightly inconvenience me.
However, the difference between the AC of the Bag of Holding (11 + DEX mod) and the creature holding it (add armor bonus, natural armor bonus, shield bonus, deflection bonus, and various enhancement bonuses) will mean that the odds of hitting the creature would be low while the odds of hitting the Bag are still good. If you're taking iterative attack penalties and missing the creature, I'd reserve the last (worst penalty) shot for a bag.
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Originally Posted by only1doug
What do you do once a group has grasped your trick and each character carries 20 mundane 2' x 4' bags?
Gee, I'd ignore the empty ones and shoot the one that obviously weighs at least 15 lbs.
Alternatively, if every member of the party is walking around with 300+ lbs. of bags and still unencumbered, I'd just slink away and target a weaker group.
Last edited by Curmudgeon : 10-06-2012 at 03:02 PM.
Sorry Curmudgeon but I've never seen this happen. Maybe you just don't like BOHs ?
BOH are often kept inside a backpack, do your archers routinely target backpacks just on the off chance that they contain a BOH ?
Do your archers routinely target backpacks on the off chance that they are a HHH ?
For that matter do all of your player's characters carry multiple bags of the appropriate size ? This would seem to mean that all ambushes start with the archers taking out the PC's mundane handbags. Who needs mirror image: when a simple mending cantrip, after the battle, can be used to fix your handbag arrow attractor ?
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π = 4
Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.
Alternatively, if every member of the party is walking around with 300+ lbs. of bags and still unencumbered, I'd just slink away and target a weaker group.
Even better:
"What's the plan for getting into the castle Stan ?"
"Well, we all load up with 20 handbags: padded out to make them look full; and then we stroll up to the front door and walk straight in"
"What!"
"Its OK, the guards will just assume that we are far too powerful for them, and just slope off. Trust me!"
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π = 4
Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.
On shooting the Bag of Holding, I can certainly see it. Some games have an atmosphere where that would certainly not be an unreasonable thing to do. Have one or two archers specifically target extradimension/nondimensional storage spaces. After all, the adventurers probably wear a good deal of their wealth as gear. Other games certainly have an atmosphere that would point to "This DMs a jerk!" reactions.
Curmudgeon's games probably have an atmosphere where it would seem reasonably appropriate.
Gee, I'd ignore the empty ones and shoot the one that obviously weighs at least 15 lbs.
And you know that how, exactly? There's nothing that says BoH look like they contain anything. They just weigh more than usual. Attached to someone's belt, you're not going to know the difference.
And again, all that you need is something to block line of effect to the bag (like another bag, or even kept under a long tabard) and you can't shoot them with an arrow. If your DM is being dickish, this would be a trivial task. And in a world where BoH are routinely being shot at, it would suddenly make sense for every BoH to have a protective container, standard.
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Bag of Holding VS Heward’s Handy Haversack
