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Well if thats the case all the PCs can just say " I am a lvl 1 Demiurge, I killed alot of doodz" and that's completely raw and doesn't require any shennanigans with special feats or any homebrew, unless of coarse I am missing a huge detail somewhere. It is getting pretty late here...
You don't gain any thing from just saying your character did ___ in his past because then it would be to easy, but if you are an outsider of the proper HD or some source tells you that you gain a divine template automatically then thats fine.
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"If you are after mere parlor tricks you will be sorely disappointed, for if I reach behind your ear, it will not be a nickel I pull out, BUT YOUR VERY SOUL!" The Venture Bros.
Bah, I know you don't want to divulge everything, but those strategies don't sit so well with my mid-op-ish ideas. If I join and don't have bonus HD, maybe I'll just be the quirky miniboss squad of lulz.
You don't gain any thing from just saying your character did ___ in his past because then it would be to easy, but if you are an outsider of the proper HD or some source tells you that you gain a divine template automatically then thats fine.
So then how did I get the EXP to be lvl 50?
If I can't just say I 'did' it then how does a ranger get a favoured enemy? I mean until you start playing hes never even seen an undead creature right? Hell he's never even seen a humanoid until you start the actual game.
According to the Immortals Handbook a character doesn't have to be aware of the concept of Quintessence to accumulate points, you just get them, and once you become aware of the process of ascension you can use those Quintecence points you didn't know that you had to become a God (remember, from that time that you went to hell and fought all those balors? )
*contemplates sitting down and doing the math to calculate the actual number I could get from fighting nothing but outsiders for a 50 level career* lol
So then how did I get the EXP to be lvl 50?
If I can't just say I 'did' it then how does a ranger get a favoured enemy? I mean until you start playing hes never even seen an undead creature right? Hell he's never even seen a humanoid until you start the actual game.
According to the Immortals Handbook a character doesn't have to be aware of the concept of Quintessence to accumulate points, you just get them, and once you become aware of the process of ascension you can use those Quintecence points you didn't know that you had to become a God (remember, from that time that you went to hell and fought all those balors? )
*contemplates sitting down and doing the math to calculate the actual number I could get from fighting nothing but outsiders for a 50 level career* lol
A healthy diet and a good training plan?
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Originally Posted by Kazyan
Bah, I know you don't want to divulge everything, but those strategies don't sit so well with my mid-op-ish ideas. If I join and don't have bonus HD, maybe I'll just be the quirky miniboss squad of lulz.
Join my group then. I always en up with all the mid-op people in high op games. Personally I just don't feel much like using IMH beyond maybe snagging a feat or two. overall most of the stuff is silly and just relies on bulky numbers. If anything I'd be tempted for the lich thing, but that's LA60 so I'm not gonna bother.
You don't gain any thing from just saying your character did ___ in his past because then it would be to easy, but if you are an outsider of the proper HD or some source tells you that you gain a divine template automatically then thats fine.
All right then, this is my issue. Because obviously a reasonable number of people know how to do this to the point where they can gain that level of HD or template.
So, asking as someone who doesn't and would really like to be more than the coffee machine for the party, who do you do that? I like this idea - purely for the zany craziness of it - but if we're going to do this I think people are going to need a level playing field. Which means, yes, sharing the tricks.
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So, asking as someone who doesn't and would really like to be more than the coffee machine for the party, who do you do that? I like this idea - purely for the zany craziness of it - but if we're going to do this I think people are going to need a level playing field. Which means, yes, sharing the tricks.
Right. One of the things the high-OP community has researched is called the "Sandwich Trick", which I dislike because it's an unbounded power exploit. You find a suitable creature via calling it in with gate (or some other method), then manifest either mind switch or fusion on the creature. Then, manifest astral seed, and wait for the mind switch or fusion to time out. Dismiss the creature, then go find a particularly hilarious way to kill yourself.
As per astral seed's entire purpose, you'll return, in the body you had at the time of mnaifesting--the trick being that you manifested it while you had the body of the creature you want. Viola, you're an Umbral Blot or whatever, for the cost of some spells and powers. You might need UMD/UPD.
Well by RAW there is no way other than be a high HD outsider with access to the Immortals handbook or the totally legitimate way that I mentioned already. Everything else is homebrew because WoTC never actually wanted PCs to be able to give themselves divine ranks.
OK, listing a few ways.
1: ELH has a good few creatures with more HD then ECL (ECL=level+RHD+LA)
2, the easy way: use body-switching techniques to get the body of your high HD follower 3, a broken way: dragon totems from the dragon lance set
4: what he said
That's enough to give an idea.
Ahhh yeah...
Would of been my route if I went dragon for this game.
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"Words ought to be chosen with greater care then either clothing or weaponry. For they can last much longer than the former, and cut deeper than the latter." -Doomraga's Revenge by T.A. Barron
Right. One of the things the high-OP community has researched is called the "Sandwich Trick", which I dislike because it's an unbounded power exploit. You find a suitable creature via calling it in with gate (or some other method), then manifest either mind switch or fusion on the creature. Then, manifest astral seed, and wait for the mind switch or fusion to time out. Dismiss the creature, then go find a particularly hilarious way to kill yourself.
As per astral seed's entire purpose, you'll return, in the body you had at the time of mnaifesting--the trick being that you manifested it while you had the body of the creature you want. Viola, you're an Umbral Blot or whatever, for the cost of some spells and powers. You might need UMD/UPD.
not the one I was thinking, but I suppose this would work. Though fusion needs to be willing if I recall...
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Originally Posted by Igneel
Ahhh yeah...
Would of been my route if I went dragon for this game.
I know.
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Originally Posted by dantiesilva
Join a side or make your own and hope they know the trick
Which trick? I know countless of them, I just don't favor using/sharing them because they're silly and can mes with the game Guess I'm a bit like Jack in that regard, though I suppose I use some of the lesser tricks like Doc-O, so who knows.
You can't have more than the Max HD, you can't have less than the Min HD
So if you get the template, you move up in HD to the minimum
No, this is wrong and I hope you don't use it. If this is how people think they are getting bonus HD they are wrong.
"This is the suggested minimum Class Level, Hit Dice, or combination of both for every divine status. The reason for this suggested minimum is to maximize the effectiveness of each template. Applying the template to characters ot creatures below the suggest minimum will affect the effective CR/ECL of the template. In the event the template ECL is greater than the base creatures initial ECL halve any excess modifier beyond double the base creatures initial CR"
Well by RAW there is no way other than be a high HD outsider with access to the Immortals handbook or the totally legitimate way that I mentioned already. Everything else is homebrew because WoTC never actually wanted PCs to be able to give themselves divine ranks.
Thats why there's homebrew.
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Originally Posted by greenpotato
No, this is wrong and I hope you don't use it. If this is how people think they are getting bonus HD they are wrong.
"This is the suggested minimum Class Level, Hit Dice, or combination of both for every divine status. The reason for this suggested minimum is to maximize the effectiveness of each template. Applying the template to characters ot creatures below the suggest minimum will affect the effective CR/ECL of the template. In the event the template ECL is greater than the base creatures initial ECL halve any excess modifier beyond double the base creatures initial CR"
This was house ruled as a legitimate method. If you gain the template through having effective DvR of the template, then you become the min HD.
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"If you are after mere parlor tricks you will be sorely disappointed, for if I reach behind your ear, it will not be a nickel I pull out, BUT YOUR VERY SOUL!" The Venture Bros.
This was house ruled as a legitimate method. If you gain the template through having effective DvR of the template, then you become the min HD.
Was it houseruled or misinterpreted?
Also why are you only talking about DvR, what if I don't have any DvR and get into the template by quintessence?
If that is the houserule then there is absolutely no point in playing unless you can get to Demiurge lvl 1 because otherwise you will be so far behind in power it's a joke.
What is the point of this?
Why do you want to encourage such a tremendous gap in power between characters?
Why doesn't the 16 simply say lvl 370 Tristalt?
Just from Dr. O's post, it seems like we have no reason to take actual IHB templates within our allowed levels. It's far more efective to take levels in the God Improved Monster class, or any other homebrew that allows DvR with a smaller cost. Kind of defeats the purpose of the LA/HD of those templates.
Meh, I'll do the astral seed/mind switch trick with a powerful Outsider. I was building a Wilder/Omnimind anyway. Should get me there with 300 XP
In fact I'll do it 3 times. And with Wild surge and quite a large number of the Improved Wildsurge feats (found in the Omnimind entry of Librum Eternia) my DC will be so high my target creatures will only succeed on a 20s.
So could I get a DM to roll 3 d20s and try not to get a natural 20?
(I will post the math up later)
Thats why there's homebrew.
This was house ruled as a legitimate method. If you gain the template through having effective DvR of the template, then you become the min HD.
... you're joking?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazyan
Just from Dr. O's post, it seems like we have no reason to take actual IHB templates within our allowed levels. It's far more efective to take levels in the God Improved Monster class, or any other homebrew that allows DvR with a smaller cost. Kind of defeats the purpose of the LA/HD of those templates.
Yup, shady gonna point this out as another one for you to review.
Was it houseruled or misinterpreted?
Also why are you only talking about DvR, what if I don't have any DvR and get into the template by quintessence?
If that is the houserule then there is absolutely no point in playing unless you can get to Demiurge lvl 1 because otherwise you will be so far behind in power it's a joke.
What is the point of this?
Why do you want to encourage such a tremendous gap in power between characters?
Why doesn't the 16 simply say lvl 370 Tristalt?
I mentioned DvR, but you can use quintessence if you want. You will be considered having the proper amount of quintessence when you take a template.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazyan
Just from Dr. O's post, it seems like we have no reason to take actual IHB templates within our allowed levels. It's far more efective to take levels in the God Improved Monster class, or any other homebrew that allows DvR with a smaller cost. Kind of defeats the purpose of the LA/HD of those templates.
Well yes that was the point, why go the harder route when we offer ways to get the templates for less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenpotato
Meh, I'll do the astral seed/mind switch trick with a powerful Outsider. I was building a Wilder/Omnimind anyway. Should get me there with 300 XP
In fact I'll do it 3 times. And with Wild surge and quite a large number of the Improved Wildsurge feats (found in the Omnimind entry of Librum Eternia) my DC will be so high my target creatures will only succeed on a 20s.
So could I get a DM to roll 3 d20s and try not to get a natural 20?
(I will post the math up later)
You can do a mind switch or any strategy really, and I will need to know what creatures you mind switch with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drack
... you're joking?
Well, no some people can't powergame, and I was using this to be a simpler easier way for all the people that PMed me about gaining divine ranks without sacrificing their character concept. Maybe they don't want a character that can mind switch, maybe they don't want to be one of the races with more HD then ECL, and maybe they don't want to be a dragon with a skull totem.
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"If you are after mere parlor tricks you will be sorely disappointed, for if I reach behind your ear, it will not be a nickel I pull out, BUT YOUR VERY SOUL!" The Venture Bros.
Well, no some people can't powergame, and I was using this to be a simpler easier way for all the people that PMed me about gaining divine ranks without sacrificing their character concept. Maybe they don't want a character that can mind switch, maybe they don't want to be one of the races with more HD then ECL, and maybe they don't want to be a dragon with a skull totem.
Hate to break it to you, but saying "some people can't op so everyone gets +40 to all abilities" only skews the power curve further... The way to get it more balanced isn't to hand away free benefits like this, but to cut down on free benefits since powergamers can always use them more effectively.
For instance lets say we're going with this system. Now I'm being pointed towards taking 50 levels of god to get 50 DvR worth of LA/RHD free races. It's like if you opened all the races from the other books and said they're "DvR0", so you can take them free... I'm starting to think it's not 100% shady that doesn't understand the fine tuning of balance between players...
Just sounds a bit to me like "if you have +8str you can trade those benefits for any class that gives you +8 Str" or similar silliness since DvR is more of a stat then a floating ECL to invest...
Hate to break it to you, but saying "some people can't op so everyone gets +40 to all abilities" only skews the power curve further... The way to get it more balanced isn't to hand away free benefits like this, but to cut down on free benefits since powergamers can always use them more effectively.
For instance lets say we're going with this system. Now I'm being pointed towards taking 50 levels of god to get 50 DvR worth of LA/RHD free races. It's like if you opened all the races from the other books and said they're "DvR0", so you can take them free... I'm starting to think it's not 100% shady that doesn't understand the fine tuning of balance between players...
Just sounds a bit to me like "if you have +8str you can trade those benefits for any class that gives you +8 Str" or similar silliness since DvR is more of a stat then a floating ECL to invest...
Your assuming that all the people who can powergame are going all out, and I said that this method of gaining the templates is for the less op so if you consider yourself op then you should not use it and then the powergamers can't use it to a greater effect then the others.
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"If you are after mere parlor tricks you will be sorely disappointed, for if I reach behind your ear, it will not be a nickel I pull out, BUT YOUR VERY SOUL!" The Venture Bros.
Your assuming that all the people who can powergame are going all out.
No, I'm assuming that people who can powergame can do so better without trying then those who can't can trying...
Edit: lets put it this way. Shady says paragon is free, are you going to choose not to take it in order to balance it out, or build your character in such a way that even with that added power you can confront someone without insta-killing them, but with enough power to still combat a greater threat as needed?
I happen to have weekly PvP IRL, and I understand where your coming from, but when push comes to shove lesser and greater characters can coexist in PvP with a good DM. It's mostly tactical advantages, diplomacy, and early warnings that keep you alive in game and in character creation I would preferably allow and disallow things based on how powerful the character already is, but I have no access to the sheets, only Shady does.
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"If you are after mere parlor tricks you will be sorely disappointed, for if I reach behind your ear, it will not be a nickel I pull out, BUT YOUR VERY SOUL!" The Venture Bros.
You seem to be misunderstanding me. Allowing/disallowing based off sheets is silly and the best of DMs can do it wrong, not to mention how it can offend players Similarly I'm not saying that they can't coexist, personally I'm fine with players being about 10X my strength. (Hence why I generally aim for what I guess is around mid-op for the game rather then going super-op ) Anywho what I'm saying is that tossing out free power like that only aggravates the situation further.
And thats why I would rather wait for wait to see everyone players in action. I purpose a Pre-game Game for a test of everyones capabilities. Shady and I can just play by ear cause we are either busy or lazy and we will see what needs to be changed in a real game situation, and for added fun whatever happens will then be part of the characters backstory.
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"If you are after mere parlor tricks you will be sorely disappointed, for if I reach behind your ear, it will not be a nickel I pull out, BUT YOUR VERY SOUL!" The Venture Bros.
Heh interesting, but then all the lower op chairs can be sized up while the higher op revile snippets leaving them at more of a disadvantage still. Plus removing such a truly massive power bonus in hindsight would make a real mess of character gen when everyone has to go back and pick apart/reassemble their characters...
Okay, look. I told myself I was going to stay out of this until Shady reappeared, but I have to totally agree with Drack here. So much creation time will be wasted, and I just don't have that time to waste.
Okay, look. I told myself I was going to stay out of this until Shady reappeared....
Yup, I had been considering doing that, but shady seems in need of insight, and nothing gives insight on a decision like everyone spelling out all the sides. Doc-O has been nice enough to play devil's advocate on this. (or am I devil's advocate... I usually am, but it doesn't matter such in the end anyways )
I am not going to pull the bottom bricks out of the Jenga game which is your character. I will plan to examine how you play and your characters best abilities if you are a paranoid survivor like player it will be noted and if your attacks, defenses, ect. are auto-success material then I will add one exception where it is bypassed by characters with x. or if you have really high stat(s) then thats fine for the most part, but I just need to make minor adjustments to put players within a ballpark range of one-another. Also these test games will be in private so people should not be able to see them.
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"If you are after mere parlor tricks you will be sorely disappointed, for if I reach behind your ear, it will not be a nickel I pull out, BUT YOUR VERY SOUL!" The Venture Bros.
In any case the mechanic I'm talking about is the one you're adding in of trading the abilities from divine ranks with templates/classes with equivalent DvR. It's a downright silly mechanic...
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(or am I devil's advocate... I usually am, but it doesn't matter such in the end anyways 
