Battle for the Five Nations OOC

[hoverfrog]

Seige Tower, next time I'll take your advice and just roll on the dice rolls thread that I've created.

Mantid, thanks for letting us know. It usually quietens down over the weekend anyway though.

[hoverfrog]

Hi.

Before answering the Augury I really need to know what your plan is. That way I can let you know via the divination how successful the universe thinks it is.

[mistformsquirrl]

Good question; I'll go ask IC and once we straighten that out, actually cast the augury >.<

[Morbis Meh]

I cannot help with this new plan sorry, last I thought we were using wood shape, hence why I prepared it. You can blow your entire spells per day if you want or just allow her to cast one spell to basically have the same effect. If the distraction is good enough we will not have to worry about too soldiers.

[Imperial Psycho]

Hardly the same effect. Tunnelling has many advantages! But perhaps it's not worth all of the spells. up to Dallun, I suppose.

[Morbis Meh]

Originally Posted by Imperial Psycho

Hardly the same effect. Tunnelling has many advantages! But perhaps it's not worth all of the spells. up to Dallun, I suppose.

The same effect equates to opening a passage for exit, there are plenty of drawbacks to a tunnel that comes with the advantages if they have any casters there they could potentially collapse said tunnel thus blocking escape period. Using all of the spells is up to the character of course it's just my 2cp that it isn't worth it to blow in one shot since I generally don't subscribe to the 15 minute workday lol

[jojolagger]

Originally Posted by Morbis Meh

The same effect equates to opening a passage for exit, there are plenty of drawbacks to a tunnel that comes with the advantages if they have any casters there they could potentially collapse said tunnel thus blocking escape period. Using all of the spells is up to the character of course it's just my 2cp that it isn't worth it to blow in one shot since I generally don't subscribe to the 15 minute workday lol

Collapse tunnel spells tend to be slow or high level. I don't think they have a caster much stronger than access to third level spells, which means we should be fine unless the caster has access to some really weird spells.

Also, It should be fairly easy to build supports of the tunnel by knocking down a few trees.

Remember, a 1 mile tunnel is 1 mile of safe travel

I found another spell that results in more efficient burrowing, meaning the tunnel, with raja's help, could be 6000 ft. in one day. We have several days to prepare, so even just a smaller amount of tunneling over a few days could get us a lot of tunnel distance.

Remember, Tunnel plus illusion makes a pit of Ganking Guards and freeing POW at the same time.

[Morbis Meh]

Originally Posted by jojolagger

Collapse tunnel spells tend to be slow or high level. I don't think they have a caster much stronger than access to third level spells, which means we should be fine unless the caster has access to some really weird spells.

Also, It should be fairly easy to build supports of the tunnel by knocking down a few trees.

Remember, a 1 mile tunnel is 1 mile of safe travel

I found another spell that results in more efficient burrowing, meaning the tunnel, with raja's help, could be 6000 ft. in one day. We have several days to prepare, so even just a smaller amount of tunneling over a few days could get us a lot of tunnel distance.

Remember, Tunnel plus illusion makes a pit of Ganking Guards and freeing POW at the same time.

You keep forgetting that Raja cannot help you since she has already seleceted her spells for the day and the longer we wait to do this the better chance we have at being discovered. Since most forts I know of generally do routine patrols outside of the walls.

[jojolagger]

Originally Posted by Morbis Meh

You keep forgetting that Raja cannot help you since she has already seleceted her spells for the day and the longer we wait to do this the better chance we have at being discovered. Since most forts I know of generally do routine patrols outside of the walls.

Such a patrol won't matter if we are underground. We have several days, and one day at lower efficiency won't be a problem. Besides, at a lower man power, routine patrols might use up too many men to patrol properly. We know they are waiting for reinforcements, which means they are short on man power.

[mistformsquirrl]

I admit, I like the tunneling idea. Stealth has a LOT of advantages over just opening a hole in the wall, and if we play our cards right, they'll never know we were there until they check the prisoners and discover "oh, they're gone".

There is however one catch:

How do we know where to put the tunnel exit in the fort?

We do it wrong and we end up right in the middle of everyone wondering if we ought to have taken the left turn at Albuquerque. Wish I were higher level, then I could use divination to pinpoint the spot >< but I'm not so I can't.

[Siege Tower]

We could do both the hole in the wall and the tunnel. We send our weasel army to distract the guards while Raja sneaks in by making a hole in the wall. Raja finds a place to make the exit while we begin the tunnel. Once Raja gets back we know where to make the exit and do so. We may need a second distraction for when the exit is made because I don't think they'll fall for a pink weasel army twice.

[Morbis Meh]

Originally Posted by mistformsquirrl

I admit, I like the tunneling idea. Stealth has a LOT of advantages over just opening a hole in the wall, and if we play our cards right, they'll never know we were there until they check the prisoners and discover "oh, they're gone".

There is however one catch:

How do we know where to put the tunnel exit in the fort?

We do it wrong and we end up right in the middle of everyone wondering if we ought to have taken the left turn at Albuquerque. Wish I were higher level, then I could use divination to pinpoint the spot >< but I'm not so I can't.

Well if we're taking more than one day, before the tunnel is finished Dallum could always cast invisibility on Raj and she can swift fly over the place to find the exact location. She would be the best to direct the tunnel since shifts always no where North is I believe... if not she has survival up the ying yang and still can direct.

[mistformsquirrl]

Originally Posted by Siege Tower

We could do both the hole in the wall and the tunnel. We send our weasel army to distract the guards while Raja sneaks in by making a hole in the wall. Raja finds a place to make the exit while we begin the tunnel. Once Raja gets back we know where to make the exit and do so. We may need a second distraction for when the exit is made because I don't think they'll fall for a pink weasel army twice.

Pink buffalo army >_> Celestial Bison ftw!

@MorbisMeh, that's a good idea >.>b

[jojolagger]

Originally Posted by Morbis Meh

Well if we're taking more than one day, before the tunnel is finished Dallum could always cast invisibility on Raj and she can swift fly over the place to find the exact location. She would be the best to direct the tunnel since shifts always no where North is I believe... if not she has survival up the ying yang and still can direct.

Sounds like a plan. That said, the invisibility would only last 4 minutes. If we can get close enough to where they keep the PoW, then we can punch through any foundations we might need to, free them all, and abscond.
That said, I think we should also do the wood shape thing. Leave a empty door frame and an Aundair crest in the palisade to confuse them and give us deniability.

[Mantid]

You spell casters make everything so complicated and boring! Just let me know when you need Gerilow to hit something.

[Morbis Meh]

Originally Posted by jojolagger

Sounds like a plan. That said, the invisibility would only last 4 minutes. If we can get close enough to where they keep the PoW, then we can punch through any foundations we might need to, free them all, and abscond.
That said, I think we should also do the wood shape thing. Leave a empty door frame and an Aundair crest in the palisade to confuse them and give us deniability.

I was thinking at the end use that as a point of entry for our traveling animal circus and have the tunnel come in from the opposite way so we have the guards running away from the tunnel entrance.

[hoverfrog]

Can you let me know your plan of action before the Augury is cast. I'm seeing suggestions rather than firm plans and I don't want to make any assumptions.

On the idea of tunnelling I should point out the 20 foot deep trench around the outside of the fort. I assume that you'll want to tunnel below it and then up into a suitable point inside? That's a lot of weight above the tunnel. How would you shore it up? What is the source book for the spell (this one?)? If it gives you or the recipient a burrowing speed then you carve out earth in front of you and deposit it behind you. It would be easier to excavate but it doesn't create a neat tunnel for you. Nor can you tunnel through rock unless the spell says so. That might make getting through flagstones on a floor problematic assuming the foundations don't go down that far. Nobody has knowledge Engineering and Architecture so you've no idea how far down the foundations go, if at all.

On summoned animals the Summon Nature’s Ally I spell gets you 1 animal and the Summon Nature’s Ally II gets you 1 or 1d3 animals. The same numbers apply for Summon Monster spells. By my count that is about a dozen creatures each, most of which will disappear before you finish summoning the hoard and the rest before they reach the walls.

As for obvious defences I can tell you that each tower has at least one guard, some you can see two by the fire. You can only see their outlines so you can't tell what they are armoured with or using as weapons. The keep has at least two guards on the roof. Each tower is 100 feet apart so one (or two) guards have to cover a large area even if it is reasonably well lit.

I'm not suggesting that you change plans at all, I'm simply pointing out what you would know about your own spells and the environment.

[mistformsquirrl]

Hrm, that's a good point about the summoning plan actually; I totally forgot about the relatively short duration on Summon Monster.


I mean we can still use them; but it might be better to just summon em and sic em on people as-needed rather than trying to build a horde >.<

And yeah, Kera is waiting to cast the Augury until we know what we're doing for sure, < . .>

I still think tunneling is the way to go on this though, once we're in we can come up with another distraction. Unless one of us has sneaking abilities I don't know about it's the only way we're going to get in and out with minimal chance of detection.

[jojolagger]

Originally Posted by hoverfrog

What is the source book for the spell (this one?)?

Actually, the spell was updated in the Spell Compendium. No Natural Attack damage, but faster burrowing (30 ft.). Which means doing the math again.

Originally Posted by hoverfrog

If it gives you or the recipient a burrowing speed then you carve out earth in front of you and deposit it behind you. It would be easier to excavate but it doesn't create a neat tunnel for you.

But a line of assistants could easily carry the loose dirt out.

With Raja's help.
10 burrow @ 50 ft. via rapid Burrowing (1st level).
40 minutes @ 50 ft.
400 rounds @ 50 ft.
20,000 ft.
or 3.8 miles. I'm sure that could be converted to fully burrowing out a proper tunnel that's quite long.

[hoverfrog]

Burrowing allows you to dig through the earth, pushing the soil behind you as a badger or mole would. It does not create a navigable tunnel for others to use.

However you can certainly use your burrowing to dig a tunnel. You can loosen the earth and dig out obstructions to make tunnelling easier and faster. Those with appropriate tools (buckets, spades, rope, etc) can shift earth away and shore up the tunnel itself so it doesn't collapse. They'll need wood cut to the width and the height of the tunnel to act as walls and the digger will need to shape the tunnel appropriately. You could dig 200 yards out and return in four minutes. You and others could then remove the debris, put the wooden supports in place, etc at maybe three yards an hour, five or six if two people where working at the face at the same time. There would have to be a chain of people with buckets removing debris and installing the supports. 1 cubic yard of soil might weight 3.5 tons so moving 437.5 tones of soil (5yds x 5yds x 5yds x 3.5 tons) in an hour is probably generous.

So at 5 yards per hour working in shifts for 24 hours a day works out at 120 yards per day or a little under 2 days to dig a tunnel from the tree edge to the fort walls. Say an extra day to ensure that you are back a bit so you aren't spotted and come up inside the fort rather than at the wall. That's barring problems like tunnelling into a big rock that you have work around or under. I haven't factored in chopping down enough trees to act as supports either. You could go faster without the supports but I'll increase the chance of a tunnel collapse accordingly. Without ranks in Knowledge (Engineering) you're really guessing as to how much you need to keep a tunnel safe.

How do you intend to do this quietly and to remain hidden? With everyone working on the tunnel what will you do about guards and patrols? Where are you going to put the soil and rubble that you excavate? What will you do about water and air? If the tunnel is too long the air won't circulate and you'll die. If it's too deep or it rains then the tunnel will flood and you'll die. If the tunnel collapses you'll either be crushed and die or trapped in a section till your air runs out and you'll die (or get rescued first).

Given the time scales of this work an augury won't be much use until you're ready to break the surface at the other end.

If anyone has actually dug a tunnel and wants to offer adjustments to these estimates then feel free, I'm making an educated guess based on google searches for tunnelling rates and my own experience spending a week digging a 10' x 10' x 5' deep pond in my back garden. I may have stopped once or twice to drink tea.

On a positive note Lieutenant Osprey loves the idea of having you dig a tunnel. It strikes him as a capital idea and much less dangerous than storming the walls.

[mistformsquirrl]

I could hold off on the augury until right before we're ready to finish up. It wouldn't be perfect, but it'd give us warning if we're about to make idiots of ourselves at the last minute >_>

[Morbis Meh]

As far as doing this quietly and hidden... the digging will occur underground so that's not a problem but the cutting of trees would be the only suggestion I have would be the warforged go further back into the tree line and cut a few trees down/proccess them and bring them along. As for air well would a survival check be allowed to figure out sutable places to make air pockets... if all else fails if we could cast the spells on the warforged then we would have no problems while digging... Raja can make water so that isn't a problem.

[jojolagger]

We should really just have a fighter-type character burrow in and grab a guard, shouldn't we? Repeat a few times to thin out the guard. If there are say it the 4 minutes of 50 ft. burrow from a cast is long enough to minutes to get oneget 2 guards, we have enough spells to gank up to 20 guards a day.
If we give up a castings we could probably use magic to assure the option of breaking through the flagstone floor and the like.

[mistformsquirrl]

Alrighty, I had a thought - does anyone here have any stealth ability at all? No need to get everyone involved, just someone who can snoop around at the walls a bit, check guard numbers and patterns, stuff like that?

As much as I like the tunnel plan I think we need to get a move on if we're going to keep the game going < . .> So it might be for the best to at least get some intel on the place while we're figuring out what to do.

[Imperial Psycho]

I have Hide and Move Silently Maxed, because why not?

I can always take a peek. Not sure what we can really get from outside the fort that we don't already have though.

[mistformsquirrl]

Well if we can figure out the guard's patrol patterns and how many of them there are, we have a better chance of making a good decision. I mean if there's only say... 20-30 guards, we might be able to just break in and beat them down with the Shifters and such in tow.

On the other hand if there's 200 or so we're going to have to go with the tunnel plan as it's the only reasonable method.

Also - it's possible an infiltrator might find a way to pass a message to the prisoners - if they can be marginally organized before we release them that would help make getting them out in one piece easier.

I'm just thinking I guess - there's not a lot Kera can do at this point until we know what we're doing for sure.

[mistformsquirrl]

Also an addendum to that:

Depending on how many guards there are, we might be able to lure out a patrol's worth of them, beat them up, steal their uniforms, and by the time they realize we're not who we say we are, we're already inside the gate.

So there's that too.

[Imperial Psycho]

Well, even with stealth, there is only so much you can see from outside the fort. Guard numbers will be somewhat difficult to determine, though I suppose an order of magnitude can be gained.

Guard patrol routes are even more difficult to see from outside the walls. One guard looks very much like another, usually.

There would be useful information if we could get inside, but if we're in, the issue is half solved already.

[Siege Tower]

Maybe these guards are actually really nice. If we knock on the door and ask really politely maybe they'll give us the POWs after we have tea together.

Seriously though, is talking even an option?

[jojolagger]

Originally Posted by Siege Tower

Maybe these guards are actually really nice. If we knock on the door and ask really politely maybe they'll give us the POWs after we have tea together.

Seriously though, is talking even an option?

It is, but a long shot option. I highly doubt we could get away with it without some serious bluff checks.