Openminded feat and levelup

[ZatriX]

Hi all,

We have come across an interestion topic with my group today fnd google wasn't able to help. Here goes:

Say a character has levelled up and is eligible for the feat. He takes open-minded (5 immediate skillpoints). He wants to take a PrC, that requires, say, 5 ranks in knowledge(dungeoneering), which is currently not his class skill. Can he take that PrC and immediately invest those skillpoints into that skill to meet the prereqs? I know, it sounds kinda bent, so here's a more straight forward question:

What (if any) is the exact order of what you do during levelup? E.g. Feat-Class-skills-spells-abilities, etc.? If it is mentioned somewhere in the books, please quote the page.

Thanks!

[DeusMortuusEst]

IIRC, by RAW you need to qualify for your PrC before you start the leveling process. And also, IIRC you choose class first, then skills/feats. The rules for that is in the PHB, together with the multiclassing rules in the classes chapter.

EDIT: What this means is that your example is not rules legal, but it's a fairly common house rule to allow it.

[danzibr]

Originally Posted by DeusMortuusEst

EDIT: What this means is that your example is not rules legal, but it's a fairly common house rule to allow it.

Yeah, we (as in... whoever I play with) always rule you can qualify for a PrC as you enter, with the understanding that this gets you in 1 level early. I'm sure there are wild examples where you get some class feature that'd let you qualify several levels early, but we don't do that.

Like Bear Warrior needs +7 BAB. Since it gives +1 BAB you can be like a Barb 6/Bear Warrior 1 rather than Barb 7/Bear Warrior 1. Or things with skill point requirements, etc.

[Twilightwyrm]

Originally Posted by DeusMortuusEst

IIRC, by RAW you need to qualify for your PrC before you start the leveling process. And also, IIRC you choose class first, then skills/feats. The rules for that is in the PHB, together with the multiclassing rules in the classes chapter.

EDIT: What this means is that your example is not rules legal, but it's a fairly common house rule to allow it.

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, it is ruled somewhere (can't remember whether it was Sage Advice or the DMG) that you can use your feat (if you have on open) to qualify for a PrC as you level into it (since feats, bonus feats notwithstanding, come from character levels), but not your skill points (since those are actually gained from class levels).
This creates a unique situation for the OP however: The feat gives him skill points, but cannot be used to let him qualify for the PrC. This is because, although the feat grants skill points, those skill points are spent at the same time as any other skill points the character would get form class levels. Basically speaking, the exception that proves the rule. (There would, indeed, be a rather interesting exception to this exception of the PrC in question actually required Open Minded as a prereq. There are, however, to my knowledge, no PrCs that do, so this is purely theoretical.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Originally Posted by Twilightwyrm

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, it is ruled somewhere (can't remember whether it was Sage Advice or the DMG) that you can use your feat (if you have on open) to qualify for a PrC as you level into it (since feats, bonus feats notwithstanding, come from character levels), but not your skill points (since those are actually gained from class levels).
This creates a unique situation for the OP however: The feat gives him skill points, but cannot be used to let him qualify for the PrC. This is because, although the feat grants skill points, those skill points are spent at the same time as any other skill points the character would get form class levels. Basically speaking, the exception that proves the rule. (There would, indeed, be a rather interesting exception to this exception of the PrC in question actually required Open Minded as a prereq. There are, however, to my knowledge, no PrCs that do, so this is purely theoretical.

Sage advice is really not rulings in any way at all. They're more like friendly suggestions from someone who probably didn't understood the game very well at all.

I can't recall any such rule from the DMG, but I'll take a look when I get back home, it was a long time since I reviewed the level-up rules.

EDIT: This is more of a question of in which order we apply things when leveling. If class comes before feat, then a feat gained at the same level can't be used to qualify for that class. As I said before, I think those rules are last in the 'Classes' chapter in the PHB.

[Stegyre]

My understanding of the RAW answer (though someone like Crumudgeon may correct this), from page 58 of the PHB:

1. Choose a Class
2. Add BAB.
3. Add Saves.
4. Add Ability Scores.
5. Add Hit Points.
6. Add Skill Points.
7. Add Feats.
8. Add Spells.
9. Add Class Features.

That's the order things happen in the PHB, and it would prohibit what the OP plans.

That said, at least the last step makes no sense whatsoever. (If you "choose class Rogue" in step 1, you cannot take any feat requiring sneak attack in step 7, because you don't technically have the sneak attack class feature until step 9???)

[ZatriX]

Originally Posted by Twilightwyrm

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, it is ruled somewhere (can't remember whether it was Sage Advice or the DMG) that you can use your feat (if you have on open) to qualify for a PrC as you level into it (since feats, bonus feats notwithstanding, come from character levels), but not your skill points (since those are actually gained from class levels).

Ok, so FEAT comes BEFORE Class. Which will (technically speaking) allow you to enter the class, that has that feat as a prereq, 1 lvl earlier.

But if you take Openminded (which gives you immediate skillpoints) it will still apply to the previous-level class? E.g. if a barbarian wants to take a lvl of rogue, those 5 points will not count as class-skill for, say, open lock :)

And yeah, I realise the PHB character creation rules, but it's creation, not levelup. What's first, chicken or egg?

[DeusMortuusEst]

Originally Posted by ZatriX

And yeah, I realise the PHB character creation rules, but it's creation, not levelup. What's first, chicken or egg?

No, it's the levelup rules we're talking about. Check the page Stegyre mentioned: 58 of the PHB. It's most likely the one that I was thinking of as well.

Your idea most likely does not work. We'd heard about it if that was the case.

EDIT: And no, the sage advice are not equal to rules.

[nedz]

Originally Posted by ZatriX

Ok, so FEAT comes BEFORE Class. Which will (technically speaking) allow you to enter the class, that has that feat as a prereq, 1 lvl earlier.

But if you take Openminded (which gives you immediate skillpoints) it will still apply to the previous-level class? E.g. if a barbarian wants to take a lvl of rogue, those 5 points will not count as class-skill for, say, open lock :)

And yeah, I realise the PHB character creation rules, but it's creation, not levelup. What's first, chicken or egg?

No.
You choose the class first, ..., then you choose the feat, ..., then you get the class features.

[Cranthis]

Feats, as long as they are your character level feats, no bonus feats, can be done at any point in the levelling up process, before or after class choice atc, but anything that you get from a class, comes after you choose what class to take that level. This includes skills, hitdie, bonus feats, class abilities, etc etc. Once you have chosen the class, you can apply anything you get from it in any order. Say you want a feat that requires certain rank in a skill. You can take your class, put in your skills, and take the feat. Feats can go anywhere, and can even be delayed till the next level (if your dm allows it, which so far, most have)

[DeusMortuusEst]

Originally Posted by Cranthis

Feats, as long as they are your character level feats, no bonus feats, can be done at any point in the levelling up process, before or after class choice atc, but anything that you get from a class, comes after you choose what class to take that level. This includes skills, hitdie, bonus feats, class abilities, etc etc. Once you have chosen the class, you can apply anything you get from it in any order. Say you want a feat that requires certain rank in a skill. You can take your class, put in your skills, and take the feat. Feats can go anywhere, and can even be delayed till the next level (if your dm allows it, which so far, most have)

No, no, no. This is either house rules or guessing. It has already been stated, and now I can confirm it with the PHB in front of me, that the rules says that choosing what class to level up in is the first step in the leveling process. It's on page 58 of the PHB, under 'Level Advancement'.

The trick suggested by the OP doesn't work unless a house rule is brought in and that's it. Unless of course, someone can point me to that suggested paragraph in the DMG Twilightwyrm spoke of. Sage advice is still not rules in any way.

[JBento]

Class comes before feats. The reason you get a feat is because you now have an HD value that is a multiple of 3. You don't get HD until you choose a class.

[nedz]

It comes down to dependencies really. If you change the sequence then you can get early entry into some PrCs, or qualify for Feats earlier, etc. For some things though, e.g. HP, it doesn't matter since nothing depends upon this value.