Wizards vs Sorcerer

[tyckspoon]

Originally Posted by Ubercaledor

Well yes, but "has access to" and "is able to cast" are two different things. With particular DMing, the range of level 3 spells I may be able to reasonably acquire as a wizard may be much more restricted than as a sorcerer. And OK, let's call it level 6 instead.

In particular, if you were playing under the suggested guidelines of CL per population, in a small-town environment, the wizard may rapidly run out of higher CL spell sources, causing even more drag on wealth and time than if you just effectively take 10 on the whole process.

..they get an absolute guaranteed 2/level that can be any spells they feel like, just like the Sorcerer can pick whatever he wants without having to ask the DM if he gets to be able to learn that particular spell. That's 38 from leveling up, which is more Spells Known just for gaining levels than the Sorcerer gets on his entire chart (discounting 0 level, because they're not that meaningful and the Wizard gets All Of Them, which rather artificially inflates his count.) I really don't see how 'The Wizard learns more spells than the Sorcerer plus has options for getting even more' can be spun as being a *disadvantage* for the Wizard.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by tyckspoon

..they get an absolute guaranteed 2/level that can be any spells they feel like, just like the Sorcerer can pick whatever he wants without having to ask the DM if he gets to be able to learn that particular spell. That's 38 from leveling up, which is more Spells Known just for gaining levels than the Sorcerer gets on his entire chart (discounting 0 level, because they're not that meaningful and the Wizard gets All Of Them, which rather artificially inflates his count.) I really don't see how 'The Wizard learns more spells than the Sorcerer plus has options for getting even more' can be spun as being a *disadvantage* for the Wizard.

Then you've obviously never seen someone utterly paralyzed by choice overload.

Options are a good thing but, like any other good thing, too many options can become a problem. Especially since a wizard never has enough spell-slots for all of his spells unless he's actually restricted to only the 2/level. Then there's the question of how many of a given spell to prep today. You've got to have some serious book-keeping chops to do a wizard's theoretical power justice. Even then you can be blind-sided by the DM or even just random chance.

[satorian]

The argument from psychology (choice overload) or the argument from game variance (xyz depends on your DM or your table) is not relevant for determining which class is objectively stronger. The wizard is that, for all the reasons others have posted above.

"Better" is not stronger, and is subjective to the player, the table, the DM, etc. But by a subjective measure, a Warmage could be "better", but he sure isn't stronger. Same with the sorcerer.

I personally never wanted to nor want to play a wizard, because I'm too lazy to deal with the planning every session. Still, I'm aware I play the weaker choice to increase my fun.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by satorian

The argument from psychology (choice overload) or the argument from game variance (xyz depends on your DM or your table) is not relevant for determining which class is objectively stronger. The wizard is that, for all the reasons others have posted above.

"Better" is not stronger, and is subjective to the player, the table, the DM, etc. But by a subjective measure, a Warmage could be "better", but he sure isn't stronger. Same with the sorcerer.

I personally never wanted to nor want to play a wizard, because I'm too lazy to deal with the planning every session. Still, I'm aware I play the weaker choice to increase my fun.

Who's arguing about which is objectively stronger? I've already said that the wizard won that fight from go.

I've only been arguing that wizard isn't better than sorcerer for all players and that the biggest advantage the wizard has is also the biggest reason that he's not the best class for everyone.

The other advantages are comparatively minor when weighed next to the (effectively) unlimited spells known factor. Though they do add up to a pretty hefty advantage even without that one, the difficulty in properly selecting the correct spells on a given day -can- neutralize, or even outweigh, the sum of those other advantages for some players. This is especially true if they have to guess blindly either because they can't or don't get the information they need to make good choices.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Originally Posted by Slipperychicken

If a Sorcerer doesn't have the right spell known, he's stuck forever. Unless your playing Pathfinder, and he took Paragon Surge as a spell known. In which case you are no longer playing D&D, you are playing "Book Diving: The RPG".

Eh, 3.5 has MotAO and Spontaneous Divination (especially troublesome without errata), and I haven't heard that complaint before. It's a crazy trick that instantly makes the Sorcerer T1, but I doubt it even takes as much OOC time as a wizard spamming divinations/scribing spells/preparing spell.

[ryu]

Uber: It's not broken or leaning I can fix it!

Further the comparison given to you was automatically obtained spells rather than scribing.

Edit: Page order mixup. Point still stands.

[Otodetu]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

I like how you assume I've never played a wizard.

I like how you assume I assume you have never played a wizard.
Right back at you that one.

I meant no offence, you simply read to much into what I posted.
I presume you agree with my statement though.