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Okay, so I'm somewhat interested in this, because yay 40k (well, sort of, what with the grimdark and all) and yay Rogue Trader! There's a couple of problems, 1) I do not know the system and mechanics for it whatsoever, I am a complete newbie to this system, 2) although presently I have a lot of time, I'm not sure how that will be affected in the future.
So, if you would accept me in spite of it, here is my input on the type of game I would prefer. Personally I would go in order of preference 4 > 1 > 2 > 3. I like the idea of the Rogue Trader as this officially sanctified person that constantly indulges in heresy and radicalism, free from the common influences and shackles of the Empire and yet in spite of his constant self interest manages to avoid falling entirely to Chaos. Of course, he may very well dance with the Warp so to speak, but hey, when you're out the Koronus Expanse anything goes.
I would be fine with the other options, but I tend to think of Rogue Trader in terms of how you put it in the 4th option you gave. Still, the other gamelines do appeal to me in different ways, so I may very well be up for anything.
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4. Rouge Trader at all costs (neutral to radical RT with DH/OW troops)
3. Imperial Navy vessel (Military minded in the Jericho Reach)
1. Black crusade themed (Evil RT's with minions)
2. Inquisitorial ship (with possible DW team)
My idea wasn't so much Rogue Trader at all costs, but Throne Agents at all costs. Not Rogue Traders, but the Inquisition slapping folks down with warp-power or something. Of course, part of his retinue could involve Rogue Traders: Inquisitors need chauffeurs after all.
Last edited by bluntpencil : 10-14-2012 at 01:28 PM.
My idea wasn't so much Rogue Trader at all costs, but Throne Agents at all costs. Not Rogue Traders, but the Inquisition slapping folks down with warp-power or something. Of course, part of his retinue could involve Rogue Traders: Inquisitors need chauffeurs after all.
So you're suggesting a more Radical Inquisitorial style, then? With Oblationist/Xanthite leanings?
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So you're suggesting a more Radical Inquisitorial style, then? With Oblationist/Xanthite leanings?
Possibly. Personally, I prefer Recongregators, teaming up with Tech-Heretics, since that gets you your piracy and renegade status, but, you know, whatever Radicals people think are cool. I imagine they would begin in the halls of Imperial power, but when they inevitably, and wrongly, get told they are heretics and traitors, they might rely on their Rogue Trader buddy to spirit them off.
However, the 'Sandbox Inquisition' game doesn't seem to have much support yet.
EDIT: The reason I suggested Rogue Trader for the ruleset is that it can better reflect such characters than Ascension, which is a completely broken, awful book.
Last edited by bluntpencil : 10-14-2012 at 02:10 PM.
I'd have to agree with Tome, it might be more feasible/Interesting to modify BC characters to serve as the RT crew. Besides, I feel that BC gives more freedom in character creation than RT does... Might take some slight modifications, such as with Navigators (although I kind of doubt Chaos ships really need one of those... And if they did a Sorcerer would likely be sufficient)
@DeusMortuusEst: If you have your heart set on a Navigator, I'll be fine with a different class should we need RT characters, didn't mean to keep someone from their preferred class! If we don't end up doing BC than I'll likely shoot for an Explorator, but I'll have to see what games we end up using.
I agree with the others regarding Black Crusade's character creation, definitely, but the reason I suggested something other than EVIL was, well, Radical Inquisitors are more interesting (in my opinion). There's that potential for a tragic fall from grace, as opposed to a swivel chair, a white cat and an evil laugh.
As it stands, any ruleset could reflect whatever theme the majority wish to go for.
Last edited by bluntpencil : 10-14-2012 at 02:25 PM.
@DeusMortuusEst: If you have your heart set on a Navigator, I'll be fine with a different class should we need RT characters, didn't mean to keep someone from their preferred class! If we don't end up doing BC than I'll likely shoot for an Explorator, but I'll have to see what games we end up using.
Hehe, no worries, I'm sure that I can come up with something other than a Navigator as well. I guess we can roll for it once we've decided what system we're using
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Originally Posted by The Glyphstone
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In 40K, it generally goes that way. Sure, many Chaotic individuals do it for good reasons, but by the time you get to the point where they're Black Crusade characters, you've got Team Evil.
However, the point I was getting at is that Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader can provide a more interesting grimdarkness, with shades of grey and a fall from grace instead of shades of black and darkdarkness.
Of course, I'm not saying the Inquisition aren't evil, but they're a more interesting sort of evil.
In 40K, it generally goes that way. Sure, many Chaotic individuals do it for good reasons, but by the time you get to the point where they're Black Crusade characters, you've got Team Evil.
I really doubt that's the case, I can't find very many excerpts that explicitly say that Black Crusade heretics are black and black and don't use grey, or even white means to white ends in the name of Chaos.
For the record i'm not denying that radical inquisitors can't be interesting, i'm just saying just because their masters are diametrically opposed doesn't mean they have to act differently. Radical Inquisitors blaspheme for the Emprah, Heretics blaspheme for Chaos.
I really doubt that's the case, I can't find very many excerpts that explicitly say that Black Crusade heretics are black and black and don't use grey, or even white means to white ends in the name of Chaos.
For the record i'm not denying that radical inquisitors can't be interesting, i'm just saying just because their masters are diametrically opposed doesn't mean they have to act differently. Radical Inquisitors blaspheme for the Emprah, Heretics blaspheme for Chaos.
It's more the tone of the setting. Black Crusade is all about acquiring power for Chaos or for yourself, gathering Infamy for whatever reason. The endgame is a Black Crusade against the Imperium, or turning into a Daemon (or Spawn). It, the setting, doesn't really allow for heroic liberation of Imperial slaves using extremely questionable methods. That just doesn't happen, unless you're the Tau. Sure, you might liberate mutants from the Imperium (truly noble), but then you end up leading them to damnation in a comic-book villain style. It's just how the setting goes.
Radical Inquisitors, of various factions, go for the 'saving millions of Imperials by trading in souls and enslaving daemon' or 'improving the lot of the Imperium by committing renegade atrocities'. You can end up like Zaranchek Xanthus or Angelique de Falk, heroic, but deeply flawed, martyrs. Blaspheming for the Emperor is interesting, to me at least, because it is chock-full of contradictions.
Also, the interesting part of most Chaos characters, is that they do heroic things for a long time... until they end up on Team Chaos. Horus, for example, was a hero... until he joined Chaos. Not after. The fall is what is interesting.
Magnus was more interesting before his fall to Chaos. He was the proto-Xanthite. He used proscribed methods... and it led to his fall, and it wasn't his fault. Afterwards? He's just another daemon prince. The lead up to this is cool... afterwards, he's cool, but setting, not real character.
Last edited by bluntpencil : 10-14-2012 at 03:04 PM.
Also, the interesting part of most Chaos characters, is that they do heroic things for a long time... until they end up on Team Chaos. Horus, for example, was a hero... until he joined Chaos. Not after. The fall is what is interesting.
It's totally possible to still do that. You don't have to do every BC character after they've abandoned their morality. In fact, it's explicitly mentioned that you can make characters who still try to do the the right thing - though how long that lasts is another thing entirely.
You can't worship the Emperor (well, you can, but it's not supported), but you can still try to be a hero. Hell, most of my BC concepts are something along those lines. They've cast their lot in with Chaos, but that doesn't mean they all have to be outright villains.
It's totally possible to still do that. You don't have to do every BC character after they've abandoned their morality. In fact, it's explicitly mentioned that you can make characters who still try to do the the right thing - though how long that lasts is another thing entirely.
You can't worship the Emperor (well, you can, but it's not supported), but you can still try to be a hero. Hell, most of my BC concepts are something along those lines. They've cast their lot in with Chaos, but that doesn't mean they all have to be outright villains.
Yeah, I guess that's my problem: They have to want to destroy the whole Imperium or whatever. The goal tends to involve the sector worshipping the Dark Gods, and I find that hard to associate with heroism. I guess a staunchly unaligned warband could manage it, maybe. A renegade Inquisitor, some Night Lords or Fallen Dark Angels or something...
Sure, you can't get Chaos champions attempting to maintain their morality, and that's cool, but really, I can see that ending in intra-party conflict very quickly. And shooting other PCs usually sucks, unless it's Only War and you're a Commissar.
"You just brutally sacrificed that child to Khorne? You know what, if your revolution involves torturing children, I want nothing to do with it, and I'm wanted for multiple counts of murder on thirty-four planets."
Last edited by bluntpencil : 10-14-2012 at 03:19 PM.
Yeah, I guess that's my problem: They have to want to destroy the whole Imperium or whatever. The goal tends to involve the sector worshipping the Dark Gods, and I find that hard to associate with heroism.
No, no they don't. That's a suggested goal, but they also mention the possibility of other ones. And there's absolutely nothing in the rules that pushes you towards it.
What the system does assume is that your character is trying to accumulate power by joining up with Chaos. Th ends they intend to put that power to are totally up to you.
Intra-party conflict can be a problem if some folks are trying for fallen heroes and other folks are doing baby-eating cannibals, but baby-eating is A) not actually required IC or OOC B) a roleplaying thing likely to cause problems anyway.
Isn't standard procedure for Chaos ships to turn on the Gellar Field and pray you don't get spit out where there's a giantass navy?
If your curious, it rather depends on the chaosy people in question, there are clades of khornites for example who trust the warp to guide them from battle to battle. but more intelligent and/or competent forces either make use of navigators or sorcery to navigate the warp.
the first are, as you might imagine, corrupted or enslaved navigators who do the normal navigatory thing, though chaos ships achieve much greater speed by diving into the deep warp away from the emperors light, this is a very different form of navigation from what they are used to... but one they quickly adapt to (keep in mind, navigators predate the Emperor, and thus, the Astronombicon). In the second example, powerful Sorcerors can use their abilities to smooth the warp ahead of the vessel, this is effective, but strains the psyker, and is less efficient than a navigator. Of course, sorcerers are much more common among chaos forces than navigators.
If the Warp was a forest, then a Navigator is a ATV, and a sorceror is a bulldozer.
No, no they don't. That's a suggested goal, but they also mention the possibility of other ones. And there's absolutely nothing in the rules that pushes you towards it.
What the system does assume is that your character is trying to accumulate power by joining up with Chaos. Th ends they intend to put that power to are totally up to you.
Sorry, I should rephrase that: They should desire that the Imperium be destroyed, by themselves, or maybe someone else. The rules kinda do push you towards it, since becoming Aligned to the Gods sorta makes your soul theirs. Then again, that's a reason to stay unaligned...
That being said, I'm toying with the idea of a Xanthite Inquisitor stuck with a Chaos Warband, giving it the old Macbeth line...
“I am in blood stepped in so far that should I wade no more, Returning were as tedious as go o’er.”
Macbeth, the best Radical ever. :D
Last edited by bluntpencil : 10-14-2012 at 03:28 PM.
Sorry, I should rephrase that: They should desire that the Imperium be destroyed, by themselves, or maybe someone else. The rules kinda do push you towards it, since becoming Aligned to the Gods sorta makes your soul theirs. Then again, that's a reason to stay unaligned...
Well then you're assuming that nothing positive can come from destroying the Imperium. Or that they, as an individual, want it destroyed instead of reorganized into the image of their Patron God or some governmental arrangement the heretic thinks would benefit mankind the most. Let's not forget the Imperium is also very evil.
Well then you're assuming that nothing positive can come from destroying the Imperium. Or that they, as an individual, want it destroyed instead of reorganized into the image of their Patron God or some governmental arrangement the heretic thinks would benefit mankind the most. Let's not forget the Imperium is also very evil.
Of course, but, to be honest, I can't see planets full of Nurglings as a really positive outcome. Reinvigorating humanity and smashing the current structures of the Imperium, then rebuilding it is more Radical thought than Chaos. Recongregators, Istvaanians and others are sorta into this.
Destroying the Imperium might be good. The Tau could possibly do this on a small scale. Existing Radical Inquisitors could destroy the Imperium we recognise, all great.
Chaos pawns doing it? Full citizenship for Daemonettes! :P
Still, there are ways to make Chaos cool, too. I've a few concepts, involving Macbeth-like individuals. ;)
But yeah, we all know the Imperium is evil, but, when we get to the basics, yeah, they're evil, but it's a human evil, as opposed to a completely insane, otherworldly horror utterly beyond our ken, with an infinite capacity for evil. The Imperium is always painted as the worst government ever... but Chaos has consistently been portrayed as 'even worse'.
Last edited by bluntpencil : 10-14-2012 at 03:37 PM.
But yeah, we all know the Imperium is evil, but, when we get to the basics, yeah, they're evil, but it's a human evil, as opposed to a completely insane, otherworldly horror utterly beyond our ken, with an infinite capacity for evil. The Imperium is always painted as the worst government ever... but Chaos has consistently been portrayed as 'even worse'.
Wrong again.
Check the descriptions for some of the Chaos Worlds, particularly places like Q'Sal. Some of them are actually fairly nice places to live.
The gods are *****, yes. But just because your character gets power from them, doesn't mean they actually agree with them. This is kind of explicit, particularly if you're playing a CSM from certain Legions (like the Alpha Legion).
You don't have to be a raging fanatic who agrees, or even likes, the chaos gods they serve.
Okay, so given the discussion in this thread, I would like to revise my preferences. The new order I would have is 4 > 1 = 2 > 3. Neutral, self-interested, oh so heretical, otherwise typically normal Rogue Trader obviously being the first option. Still, the Black Crusade and the Inquisitor with possible Deathwatch option are both starting to sound really interesting, so I'd be cool with either of the two.
__________________ How is my roleplaying? Feel free to send me thoughts and/or constructive criticism.
Quotes:
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moff Chumley
...and now I'm imagine Yoda as a DJ. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cracklord
We've already got a perfectly rational explanation. We don't need to get Ponies involved.
Still, there are ways to make Chaos cool, too. I've a few concepts, involving Macbeth-like individuals. ;)
And that's my point. You can't paint every single character possibility with the same brush because of one, admittedly obvious character archetype. I can think of many ways one can portray the "tyrant" villain archetype faithfully with any of the D&D 3.5 alignments.
Check the descriptions for some of the Chaos Worlds, particularly places like Q'Sal. Some of them are actually fairly nice places to live.
The gods are *****, yes. But just because your character gets power from them, doesn't mean they actually agree with them. This is kind of explicit, particularly if you're playing a CSM from certain Legions (like the Alpha Legion).
True, but again, these are the best of Chaos worlds, and I quote the description of Q'Sal... they treat all foreigners 'errant slaves' and the sorcerers trade only for souls and slaves.
This is the best of the Chaos Worlds. Compare this to Macragge or whatever.
And, again, playing the hero in a game like BC will very likely lead to party conflict. I can give an example of an 'evil' game I played:
My friends and I played a World of Darkness Mage game in which we were Seers of the Throne. Two of us made characters, one was a good character in over his head, who would very likely end up doing wrong due to circumstances. The other wasn't evil, but was immoral and selfish, yet pragmatic and knew when to behave. It was going to end up having these two individuals, the characters being close friends, coming to blows.
But that didn't happen because the rest of the players jumped on the evil train cackling wildly the whole time. I can see Black Crusade leading to this sort of lack of subtlety. Some players may wish a tragic fall from grace, a hero becoming an antihero becoming a villain, whereas others just want to watch the galaxy burn.
Still, I think maybe I should discuss these things with you guys elsewhere: I don't want to derail DrK's thread, or seem like I'm totally against Black Crusade, since I'm not at all! (I actually prefer it to Rogue Trader!)
Last edited by bluntpencil : 10-14-2012 at 03:51 PM.
Well at the moment it seems that people are inclined to have a "darker" GrimDark set-up. Be it as proper pirates, renegade Imperials or just a fairly amoral Rogue Trader. So if we set up the ship to be on the following path...
In the case of experience points it would obviously be RT > Acolyte > Minion
The main showcase being the RT ame and them using the minions and acolytes as they see fit. Or if the acolytes are "BC" then they might plot against their masters but that's up to you guys.
Does that sound like a good starting point
EDIT: I would possibly add that I support possibly avoiding the insane cackling evil for evil sake game. The players should want and desire to work together for a cause (no matter what that cause may be).
Command Crew
Rogue Trader character with some experience with the option to be on the dark path and have the character use the "I've just converted to chaos" options in Black Crusade.
- But owning Profit Factor/Ship points and a damn ship for space ship combat!
Minions for war
So if you use troops on boarding actions, resisting boarding actions or for ground warfare... Be it a choice between Only War or a weak ass Dark Heresy character.
- They can be as good or evil as you wish though should be inkeeping with the rest of the ship. But they are designed to be essentially the cannon fodder that Lord Captain's throw into the mix at the slightest whim
Acolyte
- A mildly senior DH agent or beginning BC agent (depending on how mean and devious he is feeling) to act as acolytes or slightly more senior minions when the RT crew will be sending people to investigate things or scout things.
Optional Sociopaths
- If either more chaos inclined - A team of chaos marines that could be deployed as an "Anti-Deathwatch" team.
- Or a team of "falling" space marines but may be harder to pull off - its the optional one
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- Or a team of "falling" space marines but may be harder to pull off [/size] - its the optional one
Hard to pull off?
Idea! Astral Claws/Red Corsairs!
Badab War anyone? :P
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Originally Posted by DrK
EDIT: I would possibly add that I support possibly avoiding the insane cackling evil for evil sake game. The players should want and desire to work together for a cause (no matter what that cause may be).
Thank the Emperor the Warp!
Last edited by bluntpencil : 10-14-2012 at 04:04 PM.
You know I'm down with the Rogue Trader -> Black Crusade thing DrK. No cackling evil mustachioed villain for me....more like the Spider lurking in the dark corner.
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Re: 40K Roleplaying
Chaos =/= Evil
- its the optional one
