Hey, grunts can be important... very much so, for an entire organisation.
That said, yeah, most of these aren't nitpicks. Kenpachi being flat out beaten by someone turned out to be no more than any other Sternritter, after having killed three of them at once... Yamamoto getting killed like a punk because of an identical twin gambit... Byakuya apparently still being alive, despite being driven a good six foot into a wall by his own Bankai and getting a classic death speech... These are not minor problems.
__________________
"Not trusting me might be the smartest decision you made since getting off of your horse."
Kharal Zhou, Fire Aspect of Lookshy:
Image and avatar by Ifni, who is rightly awesome.
So...one person complaining that Bleach is bad because the bad guys aren't threatening enough. Next post complaining it's bad because the good guys keep losing. It' almost like people are complaining no matter what happens! That can't be right though...
Also, let's be honest. If you really thought Byakuya was dead, I have some beach front property in Nevada to sell you.
It's not a nitpick that the author is having Ichigo's non Soul Reaper friends languish about and do nothing/not allowed to do anything- even when the arc pertains to them- just so Ichigo and the Soul Reapers can get more screentime. Fullbring arc was focused around humans with powers like Chad and Orihime and it wound up being on Ichigo. Chad and Orihime were just shoved aside as always. This arc is about Quincies and Uryu has barely even made an appearance.
Last edited by Slayer Lord : 11-18-2012 at 09:32 PM.
I had reason to believe he was dead, given the extent of the injuries and the fact that his own words seemed to imply it. That Byakuya has apparently survived another set of fatal injuries by offscreen author fiat, while internally consistent with what we've seen of Bleach thus far, is still bad writing.
I don't object to the good guys losing. I don't think any of us have been. What we've been objecting to is the way in which they've been losing - Kenpachi, off-screen beat-down by someone who should not have been capable of such a thing. And Yamamoto, killed because he was caught out by an identical twin gambit, which has got to be somewhere near the top in terms of pure hackneyed plot twists.
__________________
"Not trusting me might be the smartest decision you made since getting off of your horse."
Kharal Zhou, Fire Aspect of Lookshy:
Image and avatar by Ifni, who is rightly awesome.
Anteros, two pages behind I was talking about how Bleach was good. Every single chapter someone says "oh, this was good".
Some complaints might be a bit exaggerated but you're complaining about people not liking the show, so...
Bleach is still a well made manga. The problem is that everyone is so busy nit-picking every tiny thing they don't like or every little thing that differentiates from what they wanted to happen that they stopped enjoying it.
So you're counter argument is "If you ignore the actual problems, it's still really good!" and that everyone complaining is just complaining because we think we could do better. That about it? Because that's nonsense. There are actual problems with the manga. Rapid power ups for no reason. A useless arc that hasn't been mentioned since. Characters being dropped like Chad and Ishida. Ideas being dropped like almost all of them. Retconning all over the place for no reason. Bad story telling and pacing. The list goes on. It's not that we think we could do better, most of us, just that most of us don't think we could do worse. Bleach isn't a well made manga and your continued assertions don't make it so. Why is it still a well made Manga? Prove it.
Let's get back to my favorite game, Remember When Bleach Was Good!
I remember when Bleach was good. When Ishida fought Mayuri for the first time, he surprised all of us by completely and utterly curbstomping a dude as powerful as the guy who curbstomped Ichigo before. Even after all of his power ups, Ichigo did not catch up to the power level Ishida displayed there. The explanation made sense, it was self-contained and it's a rare occurrence of someone saying "it only works once" and it in fact only working once. Also, Mayuri was well built for you to hate him, so when Ishida finally destroyed the SOB it felt so gratifying. Yeah, I remember when Bleach was good. Remember when Chad, who lacked any powers, defeated a hollow he couldn't even see? The art in those chapters explores some angles rarely used in manga, something Kubo did profusely in the first chapters and then dropped it. Rukia giving directions to Chad was funny and badass at the same time. The parakeet was also devious but adorable.
So...one person complaining that Bleach is bad because the bad guys aren't threatening enough. Next post complaining it's bad because the good guys keep losing. It' almost like people are complaining no matter what happens! That can't be right though...
You're right, it can't. Because the fact that the bad guys are totally unthreatening despite the fact that the good guys got completely curbstomped in every way without managing more than two moments of even the slightest turnaround... that is part of the problem. A big part.
Quote:
Also, let's be honest. If you really thought Byakuya was dead, I have some beach front property in Nevada to sell you.
And this is also part of the problem. How could you possibly defend that decision? Kubo has, step by step, taken exactly the choices that I would have done if I wanted to suck all drama and tension out of a scene, while tearing his own backstory and concepts to shreds.
Nothing that happens will ever, EVER manage to actually take out anyone of even the slightest importance to the main characters. That is a crippling problem when you are presenting enemies that are supposedly trying to kill you, because they have no other goalposts beyond "kill you". If they're racing you for the plot coupon, at least maybe they'll get it (hell, Aizen did!) But these guys? Nope. Their complete one-sided obliteration killed one guy, whose only purpose in the series has been to announce how powerful he is and then get beaten.
__________________ Patchwork Magisters - Volume III is now available! You know, if you like that sort of thing.
It's not a nitpick that the author is having Ichigo's non Soul Reaper friends languish about and do nothing/not allowed to do anything- even when the arc pertains to them- just so Ichigo and the Soul Reapers can get more screentime. Fullbring arc was focused around humans with powers like Chad and Orihime and it wound up being on Ichigo. Chad and Orihime were just shoved aside as always. This arc is about Quincies and Uryu has barely even made an appearance.
Why was the arc about them? Because you wanted it to be? I'm sorry, but that arc was never about anything except Ichigo getting his powers back. Just because you wanted it to center around a minor character that you like and it didn't doesn't make it bad story telling.
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Originally Posted by Tebryn
So you're counter argument is "If you ignore the actual problems, it's still really good!" and that everyone complaining is just complaining because we think we could do better. That about it? Because that's nonsense. There are actual problems with the manga. Rapid power ups for no reason. A useless arc that hasn't been mentioned since. Characters being dropped like Chad and Ishida. Ideas being dropped like almost all of them. Retconning all over the place for no reason. Bad story telling and pacing. The list goes on. It's not that we think we could do better, most of us, just that most of us don't think we could do worse. Bleach isn't a well made manga and your continued assertions don't make it so. Why is it still a well made Manga? Prove it.
No. "My are" counter argument is "If you stop blowing every tiny thing you don't like out of proportion it's good!"
I'll agree that some characters get dropped. That happens in every story. Why should minor, unimportant characters take screen time from the protagonist? This is a common complaint, because people like Chad. Well, too bad. Chad is a minor character. The plot isn't about him. He serves his purpose as a supporting character from time to time and then disappears. Ishida will play a larger role in this arc. You just have to remember that it's a work in progress, and that there is still plenty of story to come. Will it be as big of a role as some people want? Probably not. Again. Supporting character.
Complaining about power ups in a shonen manga? Sorry that you don't enjoy something that's a staple of the entire genre. Maybe shonen isn't for you.
As for ret-conning...the only example of ret-conning I can think of is the origin of Chad's powers...and really...Chad is such a minor character that it's hardly plot critical anyway.
I'll also agree that the pacing has been a little wonky this arc. It's not enough to ruin the arc for me though. You're complaining about pacing and story as though the story is over. It isn't. Maybe it will flow better as a completed product.
By the way, Bleach is insanely successful. If you truly don't think you could do worse...go do it. Congratulations on your impending fame and fortune! I look forward to reading it. Then again, maybe it's easier to tear things down than it is to create something great.
You're right, it can't. Because the fact that the bad guys are totally unthreatening despite the fact that the good guys got completely curbstomped in every way without managing more than two moments of even the slightest turnaround... that is part of the problem. A big part.
And this is also part of the problem. How could you possibly defend that decision? Kubo has, step by step, taken exactly the choices that I would have done if I wanted to suck all drama and tension out of a scene, while tearing his own backstory and concepts to shreds.
Nothing that happens will ever, EVER manage to actually take out anyone of even the slightest importance to the main characters. That is a crippling problem when you are presenting enemies that are supposedly trying to kill you, because they have no other goalposts beyond "kill you". If they're racing you for the plot coupon, at least maybe they'll get it (hell, Aizen did!) But these guys? Nope. Their complete one-sided obliteration killed one guy, whose only purpose in the series has been to announce how powerful he is and then get beaten.
Yama has been central to the plot from the beginning. Was he likable? No. That doesn't mean he was unimportant though. Also, from appearances Kira was killed as well. That's at least 2 plot central characters we lost over the course of a few chapters. Others are badly injured and at least temporarily out of commission. Soul Society also lost, I think 5 of their Bankais. That's a major loss as well.
I agree that if Kubo wants to introduce real tension he needs to kill off someone we actually care about. Honestly, I think he probably actually will end up killing one of Chad, Rukia, or Renji. Again, you're all passing judgements like the story is over, but we still have a long way to go.
While I shudder to bring it up, Twilight is also remarkably successful in terms of sales and sheer money made for the author. That does not necessarily make it good.
And of course we're judging things as it goes along. That's an inherent part of a serial production - that the quality might improve twenty issues down the line in no way alters the problems it has right now.
__________________
"Not trusting me might be the smartest decision you made since getting off of your horse."
Kharal Zhou, Fire Aspect of Lookshy:
Image and avatar by Ifni, who is rightly awesome.
While I shudder to bring it up, Twilight is also remarkably successful in terms of sales and sheer money made for the author. That does not necessarily make it good.
And of course we're judging things as it goes along. That's an inherent part of a serial production - that the quality might improve twenty issues down the line in no way alters the problems it has right now.
Do you read Twilight? Do you post on message boards about Twilight constantly complaining about it? Because if not, it's not a comparable analogy.
Also, I'm loathe to do so...but I have to defend Twilight here. Objectively, is it well written? Not in my opinion. However, it does achieve it's primary goal...which is to entertain a certain demographic. Thus, yes it is well constructed. Even if we personally don't like it.
I don't like children's books or teen magazines either. It doesn't make them bad.
No. "My are" counter argument is "If you stop blowing every tiny thing you don't like out of proportion it's good!"
It's a matter of opinion. We don't think they're being blown out of proportion when they keep being made.
Quote:
I'll agree that some characters get dropped. That happens in every story. Why should minor, unimportant characters take screen time from the protagonist? This is a common complaint, because people like Chad. Well, too bad. Chad is a minor character. The plot isn't about him. He serves his purpose as a supporting character from time to time and then disappears. Ishida will play a larger role in this arc. You just have to remember that it's a work in progress, and that there is still plenty of story to come. Will it be as big of a role as some people want? Probably not. Again. Supporting character.
They weren't though. They have deep connections with Ichigo, they make a point into delving into them. I understand that support characters fade into the back ground from time to time but as others mentioned. Chad beat a Hollow without powers. He even got shuffled off in an Arc that defined his powers. I don't like Chad as a character, I thought he was boring from the get go. It being a work in progress isn't an excuse. This isn't a movie in pre-production. The story is a serial. Each chapter can be looked at for it's merit. We're not discussing the story as a whole but individual chapters that come out on a weekly basis.
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Complaining about power ups in a shonen manga? Sorry that you don't enjoy something that's a staple of the entire genre. Maybe shonen isn't for you.
Reborn! didn't have a problem with bad power ups. It's Shonen. Hoshin Engi, a Shonen didn't have a problem with power ups. Toriko, a shonen, doesn't have a whole lot of problems with random power ups. Soul Eater, ETC. The list goes on. It's not the power ups that are the problem. It's how their implanted and handled.
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As for ret-conning...the only example of ret-conning I can think of is the origin of Chad's powers...and really...Chad is such a minor character that it's hardly plot critical anyway.
The magic wish ball which originally just broke the bounderies between Shinigami and Hollows? There only being one surviving Quincy and his dad left but wait, there's an army of them. Ichigo is a Quincy! There's more than just one.
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I'll also agree that the pacing has been a little wonky this arc. It's not enough to ruin the arc for me though. You're complaining about pacing and story as though the story is over. It isn't. Maybe it will flow better as a completed product.
No? I'm saying that the pacing in the last several arcs starting from the fight with Aizen to present has been bad and it's put me off the story.
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By the way, Bleach is insanely successful. If you truly don't think you could do worse...go do it. Congratulations on your impending fame and fortune! I look forward to reading it. Then again, maybe it's easier to tear things down than it is to create something great.
Because it really is that simple right? Everyone who can write a master piece is just rolling in dough and no one who has made truly astounding works of trash are wallowing in poverty right? I hate to be the one to dispel this for you but Bleach isn't War and Peace or anything. I don't have the funding or the art skills or the company ties to produce anything. It's hard to get yourself published. I know, I've tried. It doesn't matter how good your ideas are.
I have read Twilight and watched most of the movies. And while I don't go around complaining about it on message boards (why is that important anyway?) I am at liberty to say that it's quality does not justify it's large fan base.
That said, you're missing the point. The point is that popularity does not equal quality.
Random power ups are a staple in shonen. I'm sorry if you don't enjoy it. Look at DBZ which basically birthed the genre. Goku went super saijin because he got angry.
Chad and Orihime participated in that entire arc from start to end. Their "betrayal" was a huge source of Ichigo's internal and external struggle. I'm sorry if that's not the role you wanted them to play, but they hardly "faded into the background."
Also, you're confusing revelations and unreliable narrators for ret-cons...and yes while Bleach is a serial...it comes out as books. Not individual chapters every week like we are reading it. You may have noticed that I only participate in this thread every few weeks...that's because the pacing is much better if you read it in chunks, which is what I do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayer Lord
I have read Twilight and watched most of the movies. And while I don't go around complaining about it on message boards (why is that important anyway?) I am at liberty to say that it's quality does not justify it's large fan base.
That said, you're missing the point. The point is that popularity does not equal quality.
Who is the judge of what's quality and what isn't? You? Me? My 12th grade English teacher? What gives us the right to say "this is bad, even though thousands of people disagree with me"? If something is immensely popular, then it by definition has some inherent quality. Whether it appeals to you or not.
Random power ups are a staple in shonen. I'm sorry if you don't enjoy it. Look at DBZ which basically birthed the genre. Goku went super saijin because he got angry.
Ya, expect I said that it wasn't the problem. It was how it was implemented.
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Chad and Orihime participated in that entire arc from start to end. Their "betrayal" was a huge source of Ichigo's internal and external struggle. I'm sorry if that's not the role you wanted them to play, but they hardly "faded into the background."
Well, ya they were certainly there. I really didn't get much struggle out of that arc with his friends turning on him or anything. But then again, Kubo isn't a good writer.
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Also, you're confusing revelations and unreliable narrators for ret-cons...and yes while Bleach is a serial...it comes out as books. Not individual chapters every week like we are reading it.
Really? How are we reading it every week then? Seems to me they come out weekly. Because they do, in a magazine called Weekly Shonen Jump. It's in the title. They're complied into books. And sure, maybe some of it could be revelations or unreliable narrators but the quality of the writing doesn't seem to lend itself to that.
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You may have noticed that I only participate in this thread every few weeks...that's because the pacing is much better if you read it in chunks, which is what I do.
But it's not released in chunks. I read it every week because that's how it comes out. I don't particularly care how you read the story, that's your deal. I read it every week. The pacing is kinda poor. I didn't say that was my only reason to dislike it did I?
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Who is the judge of what's quality and what isn't? You? Me? My 12th grade English teacher?
All of us. We all are the judge of what quality is.
Quote:
What gives us the right to say "this is bad, even though thousands of people disagree with me"? If something is immensely popular, then it by definition has some inherent quality. Whether it appeals to you or not.
Who else should have the right? Or better yet, who has the right to tell us we can't judge something for ourselves? That's an utter fallacy called Argumentum ad populum. If ten thousand people thought smashing your face in with boards was a good use of your time they'd still be WRONG. If ten thousand people thought the Twilight books for example were well written -they'd- be wrong.
I'll agree that some characters get dropped. That happens in every story.
No, it doesn't. Main characters got dropped.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anteros
Why should minor, unimportant characters take screen time from the protagonist? This is a common complaint, because people like Chad. Well, too bad. Chad is a minor character. The plot isn't about him. He serves his purpose as a supporting character from time to time and then disappears. Ishida will play a larger role in this arc. You just have to remember that it's a work in progress, and that there is still plenty of story to come. Will it be as big of a role as some people want? Probably not. Again. Supporting character.
You seem to misunderstand. Exaggerated protagonism is part of the problem. Why would you even introduce this characters, if you're not going to use them? Kubo has been on record for this - that's just how he writes. Writer's block? More characters. And that is an awful solution, it just clutters up the character roster and makes things more confusing. If Kubo would just leave the supporting character be support characters that would be fine, but he drags them on the spotlight for a second then throws them away without even using them for anything. He foreshadows Mashiro being important ("she can keep the mask longer than any of us") and she does nothing. He spends two pages on a spread showing us Kensei's bankai... and Kensei never actually uses his bankai for anything. I could go on and on. It happens all the time. Kubo is flying by the seat of his pants and it shows and most of the time it simply goes wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anteros
Complaining about power ups in a shonen manga? Sorry that you don't enjoy something that's a staple of the entire genre. Maybe shonen isn't for you.
First of all: shounen is not a genre, it's a demographic. No such things as power-ups in Lucky Star, Eyeshield 21, Bakuman, Death Note or Barefoot Gen.
However, I'll consider you're talking about shounen action series inspired from Hokuto no Ken. Power-ups are not a staple of this genre, specially it being overused like they are in Bleach. The only other examples I can think of are Dragonball Z and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. You're free to list any others. Bobobobobobobo is a parody so it does not count, of course. In fact, power-ups are much more a staple of mahou shoujo than shounen action.
What most shounen action does have is a character becoming more powerful and learning more techniques, some of them give him a big advantage at great cost. That's what happens with Luffy's Gears or with Naruto using the Kyuubi's chakra and with sage mode. There are a lot more shounen action series that lack power ups (or have them show up only once, keeping it significant): Hokuto no Ken, Level E, Flame of Recca, Lost Canvas, Hunter x Hunter, MÄR, AirGear, Fairy Tail, Yu Yu Hakusho, Saint Seiya, Shurato... the list goes on.
Lastly but actually the most important, the problem is not using power-ups, it's how you use it. Bleach battles are just a dispute of "mine is bigger than yours" and that is simply lazy storytelling, which is exactly the same way Dragonball Z jumped the shark.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anteros
As for ret-conning...the only example of ret-conning I can think of is the origin of Chad's powers...and really...Chad is such a minor character that it's hardly plot critical anyway.
There was a lot of retconning going around. Ichigo's dad having powers, Ishida getting his powers back, Aizen being the mastermind behind everything, Rukia and the hogyouku, the list goes on.
Even valid plot progression might seem like retcons unless you foreshadow it beforehand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anteros
By the way, Bleach is insanely successful.
I think you're a bit wrong there. Bleach was insanely successful. The anime was cancelled (and replaced by Rock Lee's wacky series) and the sales are falling. In fact, Shounen Jump is in kind of a creative crisis. Dig around for interviews and you'll see people mentioning they are afraid of One Piece ending, because Jump might lose it's #1 spot.
2009
Spoiler
*1, 2,057,528 One Piece vol.53
*2, 1,963,696 One Piece vol.54
*3, 1,952,551 One Piece vol.52
*4, 1,810,410 One Piece vol.55
*5, 1,505,575 NANA vol.21
*6, 1,277,733 Fullmetal Alchemist vol.23
*7, 1,271,340 Fullmetal Alchemist vol.21
*8, 1,238,354 Fullmetal Alchemist vol.22
*9. 1,222,356 Naruto vol.45
10, 1,186,478 Naruto vol.47
11, 1,184,722 Nodame Cantabile vol.22
12, 1,119,917 Naruto vol.46
13, *,996,398 Naruto vol.48
14, *,955,085 Bleach vol.36
15, *,944,066 Bleach vol.37
16, *,888,622 Bleach vol.38
17, *,879,612 Saint Young Men vol.3
18, *,850,059 Bleach vol.40
19, *,841,028 Bleach vol.39
20, *.790,656 Kimi ni Todoke vol.8
21, *,741,831 Kimi ni Todoke vol.9
22, *,738,404 Bleach vol.41
23, *,692,649 Saint Young Men vol.4
24, *,659,512 Kuro****suji vol.6
25, *,642,263 Detective Conan vol.64
Bleach shows up at #14.
2010
Spoiler
*1, 2,593,580 One Piece vol.59
*2, 2,578,730 One Piece vol.57
*3, 2,557,356 One Piece vol.58
*4, 2,492,183 One Piece vol.60
*5, 2,480,124 One Piece vol.56
*6, 1,340,772 Fullmetal Alchemist vol.25
*7, 1,298,292 Fullmetal Alchemist vol.24
*8, 1,241,997 Nodame Cantabile vol.24
*9, 1,214,468 Fullmetal Alchemist vol.26
10, 1,211,849 Naruto vol.49
11, 1,200,432 Naruto vol.50
12, 1,194,176 Naruto vol.52
13, 1,148,107 Kimi ni Todoke vol.10
14, 1,145,107 Naruto vol.51
15, 1,134,992 Kimi ni Todoke vol.11
16, 1,083,258 Kimi ni Todoke vol.12
17, 1,030,345 Naruto vol.53
18, *,968,112 Nodame Cantabile vol.24
19, *,941,550 Hunter x Hunter vol.27
20, *,885,784 Saint Young Men vol.5
21, *,842,401 Neon Genesis Evangelion vol.12
22, *,822,401 Bleach vol.42
23, *,780,241 Bleach vol.44
24, *,769,697 Bleach vol.45
25, *,769,271 Bleach vol.46
Bleach shows up at #22.
2011
Spoiler
*1, 3,382,588 One Piece vol.61
*2, 3,207,568 One Piece vol.62
*3, 3,073,175 One Piece vol.63
*4, 2,652,700 One Piece vol.64
*5, 1,229,170 Naruto vol.54
*6, 1,228,692 Kimi ni Todoke vol.13
*7, 1,189,589 Kimi ni Todoke vol.14
*8, 1,144,295 Fullmetal Alchemist vol.27
*9, 1,131,672 Naruto vol.55
10, 1,090,567 Naruto vol.57
11, 1,060,121 Naruto vol.56
12, 1,043,782 Hunter x Hunter vol.29
13, 1,011,766 Hunter x Hunter vol.28
14, 1,009,965 Saint Young Men vol.6
15, 1,000,071 Nodame Cantabile vol.25
16, *,933,239 Naruto vol.58
17, *,895,268 Shingeki no Kyojin vol.3
18, *,845,791 Bleach vol.48
19, *,824,872 Saint Young Men vol.7
20, *,800,037 Ao no Exorcist vol.6
21, *,788,496 Ao no Exorcist vol.5
22, *,795,573 Ao no Exorcist vol.7
23, *,786,660 One Piece vol.60
24, *,772,412 Shingeki no Kyojin vol.4
25, *,734,548 Ao no Exorcist vol.1
Bleach is at #18.
But that's volume sales, you say. How about by series? Well...
2010
Spoiler
*1, 32,343,809 One Piece
*2, *7,409,068 Naruto
*3, *6,572,813 Kimi ni Todoke
*4, *5,739,526 Fairy Tail
*5, *5,204,193 Bleach
*6, *5,165,052 Fullmetal Alchemist
*7, *3,978,439 Gintama
*8, *3,479,219 Katekyo Hitman Reborn!
*9, *3,269,379 Nurarihyon no Mago
10, *3,246,355 Nodame Cantabile
2011
Spoiler
*1, 37,996,373 One Piece
*2, *6,874,840 Naruto
*3, *5,223,712 Ao no Exorcist
*4, *4,701,596 Fairy Tail
*5, *4,665,634 Toriko
*6, *4,415,491 Gintama
*7, *4,399,938 Bakuman *8, *4,187,258 Bleach
*9, *4,109,481 Kimi ni Todoke
10, *4,056,981 Gantz
11, *3,766,194 Shingeki no Kyojin
12, *3,157,012 SKET Dance
13, *2,922,876 Hunter x Hunter
14, *2,853,552 Nurarihyon no Mago
15, *2,607,474 Beelzebub
16, *2,597,768 Saint Young Men
17, *2,550,542 Katekyo Hitman Reborn!
18, *2,464,282 Giant Killing
19, *2,120,091 Detective Conan
20, *1,853,198 Deadman Wonderland
21, *1,848,586 Fullmetal Alchemist
22, *1,800,132 Uchuu Kyoudai
23, *1,739,105 Ahiru no Sora
24, *1,712,983 Kuroko no Basket
25, *1,711,607 Ace of Diamond
Consistently behind the non-Jump series Fairy Tail. The Big Three have changed and they have changed long ago. Bleach has been falling farther and farther behind, year after year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anteros
If you truly don't think you could do worse...go do it. Congratulations on your impending fame and fortune! I look forward to reading it. Then again, maybe it's easier to tear things down than it is to create something great.
That is a logical fallacy if I ever saw one. You can't criticize a work unless you can do better?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anteros
Also, I'm loathe to do so...but I have to defend Twilight here. Objectively, is it well written? Not in my opinion. However, it does achieve it's primary goal...which is to entertain a certain demographic. Thus, yes it is well constructed. Even if we personally don't like it.
You're absolutely correct here. This point simply does not apply to Bleach, though.
Last edited by ThiagoMartell : 11-18-2012 at 11:17 PM.
It's not just the initial popularity that determintes quality, it's popularity over time. Dragonball was written over twenty years ago and remains popular because it is so well written that we can overlook it's flaws most of the time. LOTOR was first written in 1937 and remains immensely popular. Shakespeare died centuries ago, but his works remain amongst the most popular plays.
Maybe I'm wrong and Twilight will still remain popular in 20, 70 years, but quality by popularity isn't reliable until years after the work's heyday. There is such a thing as fads.
There was a lot of retconning going around. Ichigo's dad having powers, Ishida getting his powers back, Aizen being the mastermind behind everything, Rukia and the hogyouku, the list goes on.
Even valid plot progression might seem like retcons unless you foreshadow it beforehand.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Not everything that happens without foreshadowing is necessarily a retcon. Sometimes it's just a surprise twist, or is demanded by the plot.
We know now that Isshin having powers was planned from the start, and his never addressing Kon-in-Ichigo's body as Ichigo is foreshadowing.
Almost from the moment the captains were all introduced we were made to believe that Gin was the bad guy. Then you "kill off," Aizen, then suddenly he's Bleach's Ernst Blofeld. Suddenly the ante's been upped. Not one, but three captains are trying to destroy Soul Society and one of them had spent decades making everyone think he was the pinacle of virtue, when in reality he's a cold, scheming bastard. And it was plausable because almost everything we knew about him until that point was tainted by other people's perception of him.
And honestly, would you have been happy if Uryu- Ichigo's first rival- had been allowed to fade-away into the background so early in the series? And it's not like it was a snap and your powers are back like it was with Ichigo.
To expand a bit on how Bleach is no longer as successful as it used to be, take a look at Weekly Shonen Jump ToC (table of contents) rankings. They're a rough gauge of the relative popularity of Jump series (specifically, the chapter that is the 8th one before the release of the rankings). Bleach is somewhere in the middle and trending downward.
http://weeklyjump.livejournal.com/
If a series is listed in colour for a particular issue's ranking, it should mean they were exempt from polling that time.
Oh, and yea, until any other series gets close to One Piece's numbers, no other series can be remotely described as 'insanely successful' in the present tense :/
Aside from that...
I haven't really followed Bleach after the Soul Society, so I only read what showed up in the US Shounen Jump (and now, Shounen Jump Alpha). Ehhh, best I can say is that I find myself agreeing with the complaints here.
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One Punch-Man: I became the hero I had always dreamed of being. But how can it be that, even though I should be satisfied, I feel so empty?...
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Last edited by Somewhere : 11-19-2012 at 12:11 AM.
Shakespeare died centuries ago, but his works remain amongst the most popular plays.
Just wanted to say that Shakespeare doesn't really fit your example, since his importance to both play-writing and the English language as a whole were only noticed far after he died.
True, but that tends to happen to major contributors of English literture: They don't become big until after they're dead. They're still widely read, though.
On an unrelated note, could someone remind me what chapter it was where they talked about how the Gotei 13 began? I've been wanting to reread it, but I'm on a bit of a schedule and can't go back through this whole arc to find it.
Last edited by Slayer Lord : 11-19-2012 at 01:40 AM.
Just wanted to say that Shakespeare doesn't really fit your example, since his importance to both play-writing and the English language as a whole were only noticed far after he died.
Only kind of true. Shakespeare was extremely popular in his own lifetime, but he was somewhat looked down on as an uneducated (at least not formally educated) lower class playwright. Moreover in the years after his death the Elizabethan style fell out of favor for a while and his real genius was not recognized until the romantic period, but his plays remained popular throughout that time, just not revered the way they are now.
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Only kind of true. Shakespeare was extremely popular in his own lifetime, but he was somewhat looked down on as an uneducated (at least not formally educated) lower class playwright.
Moreover in the years after his death the Elizabethan style fell out of favor for a while and his real genius was not recognized until the romantic period, but his plays remained popular throughout that time, just not revered the way they are now.
Drolyt, that's the same thing I said. I never said he wasn't popular.
Last edited by ThiagoMartell : 11-19-2012 at 03:16 AM.
Dude, I never said he was not popular. You're fighting a position no one has taken.
Sorry, I guess I just don't understand what your point was. That doesn't seem to make Shakespeare an invalid example for Slayer Lord's argument.
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First of all: shounen is not a genre, it's a demographic. No such things as power-ups in Lucky Star, Eyeshield 21, Bakuman, Death Note or Barefoot Gen.
However, I'll consider you're talking about shounen action series inspired from Hokuto no Ken. Power-ups are not a staple of this genre, specially it being overused like they are in Bleach. The only other examples I can think of are Dragonball Z and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. You're free to list any others. Bobobobobobobo is a parody so it does not count, of course. In fact, power-ups are much more a staple of mahou shoujo than shounen action.
What most shounen action does have is a character becoming more powerful and learning more techniques, some of them give him a big advantage at great cost. That's what happens with Luffy's Gears or with Naruto using the Kyuubi's chakra and with sage mode. There are a lot more shounen action series that lack power ups (or have them show up only once, keeping it significant): Hokuto no Ken, Level E, Flame of Recca, Lost Canvas, Hunter x Hunter, MÄR, AirGear, Fairy Tail, Yu Yu Hakusho, Saint Seiya, Shurato... the list goes on.
Lastly but actually the most important, the problem is not using power-ups, it's how you use it. Bleach battles are just a dispute of "mine is bigger than yours" and that is simply lazy storytelling, which is exactly the same way Dragonball Z jumped the shark.
Agree with your general point (especially Shounen not being a genre, exactly--I would describe it as a sort of Super-Genre. Shounen fighting manga would be how I would describe the 'genre' we are talking about), though I have a couple of quibbles.
Being a Jojo's freak I have to say that the power ups are quite rare(only Echo-Bomber comes to mind, though my brain is telling there is one or two others). One of the things I love about Jojo's is that the protagonists win primarily through cleverness, not power levels
second, I think you are defining power ups too narrowly. Things like Gears and Haki are certainly power ups. They represent sudden boosts in levels of power, whether through training or puling them out of Luffy's ass. ("Hmm, the way you kicked my ass made me think of this new way of fighting! thanks, guy!") I would say they are a staple of the genre, but not ubiquitous or required, by any means. Gamaran does quiet well without them, for instance.(though the different stances might be considered power ups)
Oh, and OT: I remember when bleach was cool: That time when the series looked like it ended in a meaningful and poignant sacrifice my the main protagonist, and the general plot points introduced tied together nicely(in other words, I think that the series should have ended with the defeat of Aizen, and has been in decline since then)
Last edited by Susano-wo : 11-19-2012 at 04:50 AM.
Let's get back to my favorite game, Remember When Bleach Was Good!
I remember when Bleach was good. When Ishida fought Mayuri for the first time, he surprised all of us by completely and utterly curbstomping a dude as powerful as the guy who curbstomped Ichigo before. Even after all of his power ups, Ichigo did not catch up to the power level Ishida displayed there. The explanation made sense, it was self-contained and it's a rare occurrence of someone saying "it only works once" and it in fact only working once. Also, Mayuri was well built for you to hate him, so when Ishida finally destroyed the SOB it felt so gratifying. Yeah, I remember when Bleach was good. Remember when Chad, who lacked any powers, defeated a hollow he couldn't even see? The art in those chapters explores some angles rarely used in manga, something Kubo did profusely in the first chapters and then dropped it. Rukia giving directions to Chad was funny and badass at the same time. The parakeet was also devious but adorable.
This, right here, is another thing that basically should be quoted for truth. THIS was amazing. this was AWESOME. This was a sign that Kubo wanted to be known as the guy who makes good manga, not the guy who gave us THE HEART.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tebryn
Reborn! didn't have a problem with bad power ups.
Literally only quoting this so I can mention that Reborn has a LOT more problems then it's power ups (which are handled quite good).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante & Vergil
Oh jeez, can we get off this topic and stick with the goofy appearance of the Royal Guard.
This, right here, is another thing that basically should be quoted for truth. THIS was amazing. this was AWESOME. This was a sign that Kubo wanted to be known as the guy who makes good manga, not the guy who gave us THE HEART.
It reminds of Shaman King. It started as the story of a laid back boy who could talk to spirits. Then, it became a fighting series. Takei was so shaken and unsatisfied he needed to travel throughout the world so he could find himself again and write an actual ending. As he traveled the world, he knew a lot of people and made a lot of friends... including Stan Lee.
Man, that could be a manga by itself, couldn't it?
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