I have to admit, I care a great deal more about Byakuya than about, say, Chad. But then, I've always been fond of him, and his impeccable manners.
Honestly, though, I would be willing to agree that this is a fantastic arc were it not for the bloody doppelgänger incident. Even the comments about Ichigo's mother would be intriguing and acceptable, had they not been preceded by such a terrible and hackneyed plot device.
__________________
"Not trusting me might be the smartest decision you made since getting off of your horse."
I have to admit, I care a great deal more about Byakuya than about, say, Chad. But then, I've always been fond of him, and his impeccable manners.
Honestly, though, I would be willing to agree that this is a fantastic arc were it not for the bloody doppelgänger incident. Even the comments about Ichigo's mother would be intriguing and acceptable, had they not been preceded by such a terrible and hackneyed plot device.
I'm not convinced Byakuya is finished. Also, the doppleganger thing was silly...but we all knew something like that was going to happen. No one really expected the old man to kill the arc's big bad.
Is this the part where Ichigo starts hallucinating and he slowly becomes unable to distinguish between his own memories and those of his ancestors?
How long before Eagle Vision!?
Spoiler Alert for Dune fans who haven't read Sandworms of Dune
Spoiler
Actually I was thinking it was going to be more like the Kralizec ending where Duncan Idaho drew upon his endless lifetimes of experience and also controled the thinking machines.
Also is Bach the First Quincy? It fit with his age and calling Ichigo his son without losing the emphasis on Isshin being his dad. I also agree Ichigo is most likely going to train under Uryu.
__________________
Wizard's First Rule: People will believe anything, either because they want it to be true, or they are afraid it is true.
-that is what a scanner would read with regards to my rage at the latest chapter. I won't overtly 'spoil' anything so much as state that I knew he couldn't go through with some of the calls he had made. I loathe you Kubo. You are a near-talentless hack who insists upon driving this series further into the ground.
This particular debacle from Kubo isn't that bad. Well, at least bad for Kubo. Kishimoto did it far worse, and we can't really say that Kubo's case came as a surprise.
__________________
That thing is no more terrible then I.
Yuha Bach vaporized his body.
Also, Shinji's a surgeon. Kinda interesting.
Spoiler
Yep, that in interesting. That is three doctors as minor characters in this series now? In a way it's not a huge surprise though. Shinji was someone that always paid a lot more attention to the world of the living back in the old days. He even still has a tie on.
I don't see what's so wrong with the latest chapter. As far as I'm concerned, it's Kubo playing catch-up.
Spoiler
Kenpachi and Byakuya survived, which is good because their death scenes in the war were complete BS. They say they'll likely won't resume their captain duties, but given it's Bleach, I wouldn't be surprised if they joined the final fight. Same with Renji and Rukia.
At least Unohana's absence from the war was addressed, if not explained. Maybe it's just because Old Man Yama wanted the healers to be ready after the battle instead of getting caught up during it, but it could be more. Unohana's always been one of those minor characters with a lot of speculation about her.
Not bad (especially in comparison to recent chapters). Certainly better than how Naruto handled its war casualties back in the Pain arc.
__________________ RP's
Bleach in the Playground OOCIC
I am willing to make and roleplay as characters for people's factions, etcetera on request.
This particular debacle from Kubo isn't that bad. Well, at least bad for Kubo. Kishimoto did it far worse, and we can't really say that Kubo's case came as a surprise.
What, pary tell, did Kishimoto do that is far worse then? (Unless you mean it's from the newest Naruto chapter, which I haven't read yet.)
Spoiler
I want to flip tables over Byakuya having survived. Yes, his "death scene" was a bad one, but I'd rather have had that than continue the "no good guys die even after getting near death several times over" (Genryuusai excluded... for now).
__________________
Strawberries is thanked for being an awesome avatarist.
I don't see what's so wrong with the latest chapter. As far as I'm concerned, it's Kubo playing catch-up.
Spoiler
The problem is that it sucks what little tension remained out of the story, and proves once again that Kubo is totally unwilling to kill any but the most minor of characters.
The Quincies launched a full-scale, devastating attack against Soul Society. They directly targeted the captains in all-out battle, and they were able to kill nobody. The only one who could kill anyone was Juha Bach, who has become the deadliest person in Bleach through his astonishing ability to kill two people.
I mean, seriously. Byakuya, Soi Fon, Whitey and Werewolf ALL lost their Bankais, and then the guys who stole their superpowers got bored and wandered off I guess? Byakuya was reduced to a smear on the wall, AND had a death speech, and he's STILL ALIVE. Drunky was shot through the head, and HE'S still alive. Soi Fon and Whitey appear to be entirely uninjured, as do Shinji and Longface. Ukitake... didn't actually appear, did he? I mean, like, at all? Was he in any issue of this fight?
There are no stakes in this battle, because once the author has backed down that thoroughly, it's over. We know that no one will seriously be put at risk, and any scene that suggests otherwise is blatantly lying to us.
I will accept Kenpachi's survival, because surviving things that should kill him and recovering is kind of his actual shtick. But at the very least, Byakuya and Drunky should be dead. In addition, at least one other captain should be as well (probably Werewolf, since his entire character arc is complete and he has no powers now so why the hell not, but really any of the minor captains would do.) Enough captains need to have been killed for the Quincies to actually be a threat, as opposed to a joke. If they couldn't kill more than one named character with literally everything going their way, how can we take them seriously?
EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morph Bark
What, pary tell, did Kishimoto do that is far worse then? (Unless you mean it's from the newest Naruto chapter, which I haven't read yet.)
IIRC, Pain flat-out killed a ton of people and then used his hax magic to bring everyone back to life after his sudden change of heart.
__________________ Patchwork Magisters - Volume III is now available! You know, if you like that sort of thing.
What, pary tell, did Kishimoto do that is far worse then? (Unless you mean it's from the newest Naruto chapter, which I haven't read yet.)
Spoiler
I want to flip tables over Byakuya having survived. Yes, his "death scene" was a bad one, but I'd rather have had that than continue the "no good guys die even after getting near death several times over" (Genryuusai excluded... for now).
Spoiler
In Bleach, all that happened was that some people who would have died BS deaths survived. It's pointless to kill off characters without the deaths having some weight to them. And Byakuya and Kenpachi getting killed by fodder would have been pointless and an insult to the characters. Kenpachi in particular, because he got beat by a clone off-screen whom he'd already beaten the twin of earlier, also off-screen.
In Naruto, the deaths in the Pain arc were legitimately touching. Shizune died, and while she wasn't too important, she wasn't altogether unlikeable, so we the audience felt a little sad. Then Kakashi died and had a wonderful afterlife reunion scene with his dad. That was a huge impact. Finally Hinata died just after confessing her love to the Naruto, which is just Shakespearian. Then Pain used Retcon-no-jutsu to remove any consequence of the fight and undo any emotional impact those death scenes might've had.
Also, the way the characters survive is important. In Bleach, the characters barely pull through with heavy medical treatment, and several of the characters are implied to be permanently crippled to the point where they won't be able to fight or resume their positions again (granted, this is shounen, so we'll see how long that prediction lasts). In Naruto, Pain used BS-retcon-no-jutsu to bring everyone back to life.
The characters getting killed off in Naruto would've had a deep impact on the series and for Kakashi and Hinata it would have been a tragic but dramatically appropriate end to the characters. The characters getting killed off in Bleach would not have any emotional impact, thus killing them off would be completely pointless.
EDIT:
Quote:
Spoiler
I mean, seriously. Byakuya, Soi Fon, Whitey and Werewolf ALL lost their Bankais, and then the guys who stole their superpowers got bored and wandered off I guess? Byakuya was reduced to a smear on the wall, AND had a death speech, and he's STILL ALIVE. Drunky was shot through the head, and HE'S still alive. Soi Fon and Whitey appear to be entirely uninjured, as do Shinji and Longface. Ukitake... didn't actually appear, did he? I mean, like, at all? Was he in any issue of this fight?
Spoiler
I respectfully disagree. Killing off characters, even minor ones, does not serve the plot in any way unless there's some emotional impact to their deaths.
I could possibly accept Byakuya dying if the Quincy who killed him turned out to be a major lieutenant of the villain and was one of the main bad guys to confront in the final battle. But considering he was one-shotted with a few others by Yama, it'd be pointless.
Shunsui has more character development to go. Word of God indicates that we will see his Bankai at some point this arc. And if he ends up in a rematch against the guy who shot him in the face, all the better. We can actually believe he'll be challenged.
If the characters who got their Bankais stolen DIDN'T run the hell away it would've been ridiculous. Their biggest weapons just got ganked, and they should know better than to try and fight against them (well, except maybe Komamura.)
And the excessive wounds are a Bleach trademark. At this point, someone could lose enough blood to fill up the hallway in The Shining and I wouldn't be surprised.
__________________ RP's
Bleach in the Playground OOCIC
I am willing to make and roleplay as characters for people's factions, etcetera on request.
At least one person we thought was dead, isn't. I never thought Kimpachi was dead though. Why no body for old man Yama though?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante & Vergil
That's because,
Spoiler
Yuha Bach vaporized his body.
Also, Shinji's a surgeon. Kinda interesting.
Nope it is because
Spoiler
Bach still has captain genocide bankai so he is going to use the bankai to bring back Captain Genocide and have ichigo or soul society fight Captain Genocide for lols
I respectfully disagree. Killing off characters, even minor ones, does not serve the plot in any way unless there's some emotional impact to their deaths.
I could possibly accept Byakuya dying if the Quincy who killed him turned out to be a major lieutenant of the villain and was one of the main bad guys to confront in the final battle. But considering he was one-shotted with a few others by Yama, it'd be pointless.
Spoiler
Byakuya's death was important, from several perspectives, and Kubo spent a bloody long time on it. It showcased his transformation, and the way that Ichigo changed everything, and added a personal stake for Ichigo and Rukia that was instantly revoked in a bait-and-switch. Yeah, the guy that took him down probably shouldn't have been flattened so easily, but that was sort of the point. This was a war, not a series of duels. Important people were going to die. Only actually they weren't and everything was fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscipleofBob
Spoiler
Shunsui has more character development to go. Word of God indicates that we will see his Bankai at some point this arc. And if he ends up in a rematch against the guy who shot him in the face, all the better. We can actually believe he'll be challenged.
Granted. I will withdraw my complaints on that front.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscipleofBob
Spoiler
If the characters who got their Bankais stolen DIDN'T run the hell away it would've been ridiculous. Their biggest weapons just got ganked, and they should know better than to try and fight against them (well, except maybe Komamura.)
And the excessive wounds are a Bleach trademark. At this point, someone could lose enough blood to fill up the hallway in The Shining and I wouldn't be surprised.
Spoiler
How the hell do you run away from Soi Fon's Oblivion Cannon? From Whitey's death dragon of everything freezes to death?
Byakuya is stronger than any of the other three, and he barely had a second to react before he was obliterated. The fact that the others got off scot-free (well, Komamaru got injured, at least) is absurd.
And while death doesn't inherently improve storytelling, once you have decided that your story is about a war, yeah, named characters need to die. When you've decided that your enemies are devoted to wiping out the good guys root and branch, they need to actually follow through or else they're just laughably incompetent. And that's what happened here. Villains failing to take out powerless opponents with their insane overclocked abilities are wildly incompetent.
The Quincies attacked with a numerically superior force, the ability to instantly remove their opponents' strongest abilities, and with their strongest opponent locked out of the fight for its entire duration. With all of those advantages, they lost eight (nine?) of their strongest members and killed one high-tier shinigami. This is not threatening.
__________________ Patchwork Magisters - Volume III is now available! You know, if you like that sort of thing.
The problem with the "war should have many deaths" argument is that while it's accurate, the dramatic impact of each character death is lessened the more there are. If you start killing off characters JUST to provide dramatic tension, you're basically throwing away characters without giving them a significant end. They might as well have not been there.
If other members of the Vandereich had been given more characterization and set up as possible future antagonists instead of just getting killed by Yamamoto in one page, I could buy some of the Captains dying.
If Fear-guy was still around and could actually pose a threat, Byakuya's death scene could have been a great one and provide some good motivation for Rukia or Renji.
If I had to pick some other Captains to die in the fight, Komamura I agree could have bought the farm. Soi Fong maybe, though I'd personally like to see some closure between her and Yoruichi. No way Hitsugaya would get killed though, he's far too popular (though for the life of me I can't figure out why). Except for maybe one of the Vizard Captains, who don't have enough characterization to really matter at this point anyway, I can't think of anyone else who would be worth killing. Maybe some of the lieutenants...
Speaking of which, Izuru Kira. Confirmed dead? It's hard to tell at this point.
This is all, of course, assuming that Kubo's going to tell us a good story. lol
Also, the Bankais that were stolen wouldn't be that difficult to evade, not any more than other projectile weapons, and we're talking about a universe where most of the characters can basically teleport at-will.
__________________ RP's
Bleach in the Playground OOCIC
I am willing to make and roleplay as characters for people's factions, etcetera on request.
The problem with the "war should have many deaths" argument is that while it's accurate, the dramatic impact of each character death is lessened the more there are. If you start killing off characters JUST to provide dramatic tension, you're basically throwing away characters without giving them a significant end. They might as well have not been there.
If other members of the Vandereich had been given more characterization and set up as possible future antagonists instead of just getting killed by Yamamoto in one page, I could buy some of the Captains dying.
If Fear-guy was still around and could actually pose a threat, Byakuya's death scene could have been a great one and provide some good motivation for Rukia or Renji.
If I had to pick some other Captains to die in the fight, Komamura I agree could have bought the farm. Soi Fong maybe, though I'd personally like to see some closure between her and Yoruichi. No way Hitsugaya would get killed though, he's far too popular (though for the life of me I can't figure out why). Except for maybe one of the Vizard Captains, who don't have enough characterization to really matter at this point anyway, I can't think of anyone else who would be worth killing. Maybe some of the lieutenants...
Speaking of which, Izuru Kira. Confirmed dead? It's hard to tell at this point.
This is all, of course, assuming that Kubo's going to tell us a good story. lol
Also, the Bankais that were stolen wouldn't be that difficult to evade, not any more than other projectile weapons, and we're talking about a universe where most of the characters can basically teleport at-will.
Well, yes, part of the problem is that every step of this war has been handled so badly that it really doesn't matter anymore. Instead of a series of absurd back-and-forth curbstomps, it would have been nice if there had been dramatic tension at literally any point. So I guess this is really just the icing on a very bad cake.
Man, I miss the days when Kubo throwing twenty new characters at the screen meant that I was going to fall in love with at least ten of them. Hell, I miss the days when I would remember ten of them.
(Also, I assume that Kira is not dead, because he is a named character who seemed to die on-screen and that never takes.)
__________________ Patchwork Magisters - Volume III is now available! You know, if you like that sort of thing.
Well, yes, part of the problem is that every step of this war has been handled so badly that it really doesn't matter anymore. Instead of a series of absurd back-and-forth curbstomps, it would have been nice if there had been dramatic tension at literally any point. So I guess this is really just the icing on a very bad cake.
Man, I miss the days when Kubo throwing twenty new characters at the screen meant that I was going to fall in love with at least ten of them. Hell, I miss the days when I would remember ten of them.
(Also, I assume that Kira is not dead, because he is a named character who seemed to die on-screen and that never takes.)
Oh by all means, many portions of this "war" were some of the worst moments in the entire Bleach series, and that's saying something.
I guess my counterargument would be "this cake is indeed terrible! But at least the icing isn't so bad if you scrape it off."
__________________ RP's
Bleach in the Playground OOCIC
I am willing to make and roleplay as characters for people's factions, etcetera on request.
I don't know what you guys are talking about, this war has a lot of dramatic, sad moments. Sasakibe, the absolute best, greatest nicest guy ever DIED. FEEL BAD FOR SASAKIBE!
I'd put the above text in blue, but I figured my point was obvious enough.
(Also, I assume that Kira is not dead, because he is a named character who seemed to die on-screen and that never takes.)
Spoiler
I read the manga again to check what wounds he received in battle. Wound he got was of much higher caliber then what Matsumoto had against Ayon, and it wasn't established that there were any medics nearby so it's not plausible that he survived.
It's still possible that Kubo forgot what he drew and makes Kira walk around like nothing has happened in the next chapter.
__________________
That thing is no more terrible then I.
Last edited by darksolitaire : 11-07-2012 at 12:35 PM.
I read the manga again to check what wounds he received in battle. Wound he got was of much higher caliber then what Matsumoto had against Ayon, and it wasn't established that there were any medics nearby so it's not plausible that he survived.
It's still possible that Kubo forgot what he drew and makes Kira walk around like nothing has happened in the next chapter.
You say "Plausible" like that's a thing in Bleach.
__________________ RP's
Bleach in the Playground OOCIC
I am willing to make and roleplay as characters for people's factions, etcetera on request.
I read the manga again to check what wounds he received in battle. Wound he got was of much higher caliber then what Matsumoto had against Ayon, and it wasn't established that there were any medics nearby so it's not plausible that he survived.
It's still possible that Kubo forgot what he drew and makes Kira walk around like nothing has happened in the next chapter.
Given that Byakuya was actually reduced to a fine paste pressed into the wall, after which he was directly announced to be dead by a character in the comic, I think I'm not willing to assume anyone is dead ever for any degree of wounding without a formal funeral being held on their behalf.
*EDIT* Oh, wait, sarcasm, that makes more sense. Never mind.
__________________ Patchwork Magisters - Volume III is now available! You know, if you like that sort of thing.
Shunsui was the best thing about this chapter. He just needs a pirate hat.
This. Now he can drink rum and not only sake. Good for him.
Other than that:
On the stolen bankais, the only one who was really threatening was Better-than-you's. And guess who got "killed".
Doggie's bankai makes the user share injuries with the giant. Try sending a few kido fireballs against it, and if its Quincy Pirate girl who is wounded and not Doggie captain, spam kido fireballs until QPG is burnt or releases it. At tha point, Doggie can use his shikai to finish her. (Well, before you consider than he is the Captain's Chad)
Soi Fong's makes huge colateral damage, but if you can close the gap with your enemy it is less threatening. Worst case scenario, you get a mutual kill. But then, I don't really get why did she use bankai in the first place. Send Fat Ugly lieutenant to distract the Quincy, Flash step in, two-hit-kill without the Quincy knowing what happened, lather, rinse, repeat.
Whitey's freezes everything. Which sounds much less threatening when everyone is comenting on how Old Fiery Genocide is warming SoulSociety with his spirit pressure thing.
I should also mention the absurdity of Captain Musician being there pretty much uninjured. So he faces Weird Black Quincy, says something about how sad he is because Kira is dead or something, promises to kill WBQ... who is actually roasted by Old Fiery Genocide. Did Musician let WBQ just go? Does he have some magic beans he doesn't share? At least Drunky had the decency to get injured before Cool Moustache Quincy did his trick.
On the future of Bleach: The captains assemble, and assault Quincy Land, with the help of Ichigo. Drunky faces CMQ again, we get to see some (hopefully cool) previously unseen bankais, but it's finally Ichigo who saves the day. Probably with the help of Striped Hat guy. In this case, Mad Scientist captain will get mad and probably change his makeup.
Ishida won't appear. Orihime will say "Kurosaki-kun" a few dozen times. Chad? Who's Chad?
You saw it here first
Doggie's bankai makes the user share injuries with the giant. Try sending a few kido fireballs against it, and if its Quincy Pirate girl who is wounded and not Doggie captain, spam kido fireballs until QPG is burnt or releases it. At tha point, Doggie can use his shikai to finish her. (Well, before you consider than he is the Captain's Chad)
I could be wrong, but from their conversations I was under the impression that the four captains' sword souls got stolen completely, and Werewolf didn't have his shikai either. Could be wrong.
Quote:
Soi Fong's makes huge collateral damage, but if you can close the gap with your enemy it is less threatening. Worst case scenario, you get a mutual kill. But then, I don't really get why did she use bankai in the first place.
Tactical error. At the time, most of the captains believed that the Quincies were just locking bankais, not stealing them. Since Soi Fon kind of doesn't like or use her bankai as a rule, she seems to have decided to deliberately sacrifice it to see what the enemy was up to. (Byakuya sacrificed his on the theory that the enemy could only block one bankai at a time, and Whitey and Werewolf were just being kind of dumb.)
Quote:
I should also mention the absurdity of Captain Musician being there pretty much uninjured. So he faces Weird Black Quincy, says something about how sad he is because Kira is dead or something, promises to kill WBQ... who is actually roasted by Old Fiery Genocide. Did Musician let WBQ just go? Does he have some magic beans he doesn't share? At least Drunky had the decency to get injured before Cool Moustache Quincy did his trick.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Somehow, I feel like maybe Kubo did too.
__________________ Patchwork Magisters - Volume III is now available! You know, if you like that sort of thing.
I could be wrong, but from their conversations I was under the impression that the four captains' sword souls got stolen completely, and Werewolf didn't have his shikai either. Could be wrong.
Doesn't really matter when Quincy Pirate Girl has been hit by enough kido fireballs. If he doesn't have even shikai, he can bite her face off or something. Since he survived (and QPG probably retreated to Quincy Land), he could have done something similar. We'll see how their rematch goes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Friv
Tactical error. At the time, most of the captains believed that the Quincies were just locking bankais, not stealing them. Since Soi Fon kind of doesn't like or use her bankai as a rule, she seems to have decided to deliberately sacrifice it to see what the enemy was up to. (Byakuya sacrificed his on the theory that the enemy could only block one bankai at a time, and Whitey and Werewolf were just being kind of dumb.)
Ok, then she can trick her opponent to use the Banzooka, flash step out of the way, and once the quincy is exhausted (she could just use the banzooka a few times a day, the quincy might get tired before) she can kick his nuts with her flashy technique which is the reason of leaving her shoulders without clothing, and slit his throat with her unreleased sword. Colateral damage is an issue, but then, the Quincy pretty much destroyed Soul Society anyways.
My point is that other than Byakuya, the other captains losing their bankais wasn't a HUUUUGE deal. Not ideal, and quite brainless (but then, other than Mad Scientist, planning things is not any Captain's strong point) but not the end of the world, regarding their duels. Giving the enemy mass destruction tools probably sped up Soul Society being overrun.
More on this:
Losing their bankais is not that bad for at least a couple more of Captains. Mad Scientist is probably immune to his freaky caterpillar baby poison, and the Quincy releasing it wouldn't be. He would get a laugh out of it.
If Drunky's is something like his shikai, he probably has more experience with his sword's games than Cool Moustache or any other quincy. We saw in his fight against Starrk that he was at risk from his shikai, and he's not above using any advantage available. As long as Cap. Tuberculosis doesn't distract him...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Friv
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Somehow, I feel like maybe Kubo did too.
To be honest, nobody could blame you. I know Doggie's real name is Komamura, but I'd have to look Musician's to know it. He is a tertiary character at best. At this point, I don't think anyone expects Kubo would remember such an inconsequential character, either.
RSS Feeds: 
Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)
I also agree Ichigo is most likely going to train under Uryu.
