Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

[theNater]

Originally Posted by Caractacus

Well, this is a good point.

Your one about the evil adventuring party was not thought through though - else good-aligned adventurers would have a lot of trouble being allowed to Plane Shift into the Lower Planes for fun and frolics there...

My position is that people can go to an aligned plane without having the alignment of that plane. So good-aligned adventurers being able to visit the Lower Planes supports my position.

[Winter]

Originally Posted by Tebryn

Except there is no Game Mechanic for that.

You mean "The Lawul Good afterlife is only for people who are deemed Lawful Good by the Lawful Good authorities" is not game mechanical? Sorry, it's not getting more game mechanical, there isn't even a spell or die roll, it is a plain yes or no decision based on your alignment. There is nothing else in the rules that is more strictly tied to the alignment than "if(align==x) YES else NO".

The problem is not that someone else can Plane Shift in but that Roy got through the Main Gate the Way It Is Supposed To Be.

[theNater]

Originally Posted by Winter

You mean "The Lawul Good afterlife is only for people who are deemed Lawful Good by the Lawful Good authorities" is not game mechanical?

It's a little bit iffy. Things can be used in ways other than what they are meant for, and saying that a place is only for certain people is more like saying that only those people should enter than that only those people can enter.

"Only people who are deemed Lawful Good by the Lawful Good authorities may enter the Lawful Good afterlife through the front door" is a game mechanical statement. But using it to determine Roy's alignment runs into two problems.

Firstly, "being deemed Lawful Good by the Lawful Good authorities" is not the same as "being Lawful Good". Mythologies contain a number of stories of people tricking their way past guardians of various afterlifes, and it's technically possible that something of that nature is happening here.

Secondly, as far as I'm aware, this mechanic is not a standard D&D mechanic. If it's not, and the Giant hasn't house-ruled it in, we can't use it as mechanical evidence. If we want to prove things with it, we need to show that it's in use.

[Tebryn]

Originally Posted by Winter

You mean "The Lawul Good afterlife is only for people who are deemed Lawful Good by the Lawful Good authorities" is not game mechanical? Sorry, it's not getting more game mechanical, there isn't even a spell or die roll, it is a plain yes or no decision based on your alignment. There is nothing else in the rules that is more strictly tied to the alignment than "if(align==x) YES else NO".

The problem is not that someone else can Plane Shift in but that Roy got through the Main Gate the Way It Is Supposed To Be.

No, it's not game mechanical. I'd like you to cite me the rule that it's based off. It's purely role playing. The problem you cite isn't the problem. The problem is there aren't any rules governing who gets into the Afterlife in D&D that isn't completely subjective or up to the DM.

[MichaelGoldclaw]

Lets take this in a different perspective

You would think to overcome a mental illness requires a will save. When V cast Owl's Wisdom (increasing his will save) he was thinking about not killing anymore

Friendship with slavers - doing it because of selfish reasons (gold) which is neutral

also it seems like Rich is avoiding a direct mechanic to prove Belkar's alignment.

[Winter]

Originally Posted by Tebryn

No, it's not game mechanical. I'd like you to cite me the rule that it's based off. It's purely role playing. The problem you cite isn't the problem. The problem is there aren't any rules governing who gets into the Afterlife in D&D that isn't completely subjective or up to the DM.

We are not talking about D&D in general here but about Rich's OotS-verse. How do the Afterlifes work? We have no idea. We only know is seems to be an alignment based system.

Now, given that the Deva determines Roy's alignment it stands to assume it got determined as LG or he would not let into it (as, well, it is for LG types and they seem pretty strict about their rules ("by the book").
No matter if Roy was actually before, after this Key-scene he is LG.

Given Rich has not written a Campagin Settting this is as rule mechanical as it gets.

If you want rules: You do not let get into the Talos afterlife in the FR (in Core you also have deity based afterlives) if you are no workshipper of Talos. The rules state you go to your respective afterlife based on your god, which is the same for Alignment-afterlives.
It makes no sense whatsever to have align-afterlives and then let in anyone who "roughly" qualifies.

[ti'esar]

Aaaaaaaaand I think this thread has officially lost all pretense of not being a "let's beat the pulverized smear that was once a horse one more time, because apparently some people just won't listen" Belkar's Alignment thread.

[Winter]

Last I looked we were arguing over Roy's alignment and if a Deva saying "you are LG" in an official Post-Death-Examination if he is actually LG to get into the LG afterlife means he actually has to be LG. I find it a bit odd there is disagreement, but... it is much less odd than people claiming there is no proof for Belkar being evil.

[theNater]

Originally Posted by Winter

Last I looked we were arguing over Roy's alignment and if a Deva saying "you are LG" in an official Post-Death-Examination if he is actually LG to get into the LG afterlife means he actually has to be LG. I find it a bit odd there is disagreement, but... it is much less odd than people claiming there is no proof for Belkar being evil.

We have sufficient evidence to conclude that Roy is Lawful Good. One major piece of evidence is that the deva, upon analysis, determined that he is Lawful Good. But there's a difference between evidence and game mechanical proof, and the deva's conclusion is the former, not the latter.

It is kept in the realm of evidence rather than proof for several reasons. Because this is the OOtSverse afterlife specifically, a key thing keeping it from being proof is the fact that divine beings, and deva in particular, can make mistakes. Note a deva who hands a file to Eugene, mistakenly believing that he will share its information with Roy. Also note that the divine forces of good had to discontinue a service due to unintentional colon tumors. Given the history, I'd be very surprised to learn nobody ever got into the Lawful Good afterlife due to a paperwork mix up.

[ti'esar]

Originally Posted by Winter

Last I looked we were arguing over Roy's alignment and if a Deva saying "you are LG" in an official Post-Death-Examination if he is actually LG to get into the LG afterlife means he actually has to be LG. I find it a bit odd there is disagreement, but... it is much less odd than people claiming there is no proof for Belkar being evil.

I was referring to this post:

Originally Posted by MichaelGoldclaw

Lets take this in a different perspective

You would think to overcome a mental illness requires a will save. When V cast Owl's Wisdom (increasing his will save) he was thinking about not killing anymore

Friendship with slavers - doing it because of selfish reasons (gold) which is neutral

also it seems like Rich is avoiding a direct mechanic to prove Belkar's alignment.

[Kish]

Originally Posted by MichaelGoldclaw

Lets take this in a different perspective

You would think to overcome a mental illness requires a will save. When V cast Owl's Wisdom (increasing his will save) he was thinking about not killing anymore

Friendship with slavers - doing it because of selfish reasons (gold) which is neutral

also it seems like Rich is avoiding a direct mechanic to prove Belkar's alignment.

Good thing no one's cast Unholy Blight on Belkar and that no one in this thread has mentioned them doing so, or that last sentence would cause my eyes to roll out of my head.

Now excuse me, I have to go chase my eyes down the stairs, I'll need them to comment on the "sociopath=neutral, you're only evil if you're a cackling cartoon villain" assumption in the next-to-last sentence.

[Winter]

Originally Posted by ti'esar

I was referring to this post:

Yes, my mind refuses to read stuff that makes it choke itself out of non-understanding where that might come from (based on what has been written before (more than once) in the discussion).

[rewinn]

Originally Posted by Winter

Yes, my mind refuses to read stuff that makes it choke itself out of non-understanding where that might come from (based on what has been written before (more than once) in the discussion).

Can threads have alignments?

Cuz if so, I'd nominate this one for Chaotic Evil, although I'm not sure how to execute a game mechanic to illustrate it.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rewinn

Can threads have alignments?

Cuz if so, I'd nominate this one for Chaotic Evil, although I'm not sure how to execute a game mechanic to illustrate it.

Well, I know I wouldn't object if you could find a way to Smite it... ;)

[Niknokitueu]

Originally Posted by rewinn

Can threads have alignments?

Cuz if so, I'd nominate this one for Chaotic Evil, although I'm not sure how to execute a game mechanic to illustrate it.

Nah - I'd nominate it for CN. Totally chaotic and self-centered. No outward view on good or evil. Yep, CN.*

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu
*At least, this thread has yet to butcher anyone in cold blood, which makes it almost CG in outlook :p