Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again

[Saposhiente]

Originally Posted by Triscuitable

Okay, I'm in something of a bind. I'll explain it in bullet points.

• I met this girl. She's really nice, and I like her. I'm very certain that because of how she introduced herself to me, that she likes me (especially considering I'm rather quiet in class).
• A friend of mine introduced me to this guy. He's really nice, and I like him. He also likes me.
• I've been friends with this girl for a while, but only just got to know this guy.
• I haven't had a chance to hang out with the girl, but the guy has already asked me if I wanted to.
• I've got some rather complicated gender-identity issues, but this girl is straight and the guy is gay.
• The girl and I share a lot of hobbies. The guy and I share a few interests, though he leans closer to anime and the like, while I prefer games and comics.
• The guy smokes. This is actually a big deal for me, because smoking is generally quite gross for me, and I don't like what it does to people. It also really turns me away from him, despite his much nicer traits.

What in the HELL do I do?

Originally Posted by Sholos

Arghh! Why can't I simply tell this girl how I feel and ask if she feels the same way?

Well... why can't you? (On principle. I of course can't give detailed advice nor advice that should be paid great attention to without details.)

Originally Posted by Sholos

I'm generally comfortable talking to her about most things. I just don't know how I'd change the topic to that without it being really weird. =/

What you do is, don't change the topic; create the topic. If for example you want to take her out to a movie, first ask her about the movie and if she hasn't seen it then you can ask her whether she'd like to see it with you.

[Reluctance]

Originally Posted by Heliomance

And frankly, "we all know" nothing of the sort. I'll admit that from the description Trisc gave, he (sorry if that's not your preferred pronoun) seems to be leaning more towards the girl, but I disagree with your accusation of "public hand-wringing to sell an image", and again think it's not an appropriate accusation to make on no grounds. And frankly, I don't see what's wrong with going for the girl. In fact, that would be my advice. You seem to have more in common with her anyway, and the guy's smoking is a big deal for you. Make a move with the girl.

{Scrubbed}

Making a move is unlikely to work now - there's that whole "known you forever, don't wanna risk it" thing going against you - but seriously just do it. Remember what I said about social skills being skills with a strong learned component? You'll likely goof on earlier tries, but look at it as leveling your skills up. You'll learn what works and what doesn't, you'll get more confident, and you'll stop stressing.

I'll say this nicely once before going back to the classic Reluctance mode. What are you doing to force yourself out of your shell, to interact with other people, and to make yourself a more active, engaging, and interesting person? All of this "why is everything so danged hard?" just means you're letting your skills fail to advance. Which only means you fall further behind the curve as you (and by extension, your circle of peers) gets older.

(True story. The first time I tried asking a girl out, the hallway suddenly got very crowded and I couldn't get the words out properly. Forcing myself to socialize with bored bystanders (admittedly harder today when everybody has internet-connected devices) and asking for numbers was how I leveled my skills to the "competent" level. The rest is just a natural side-effect of normal social interaction.)

[Astrella]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

{Scrubbed}.

Still no reason to make rude assumptions like that. "An air" is not an excuse to be an ass.

And I really hope you're not claiming that Trisc can only be bi if he dates a suitable amount of each gender.

[Reluctance]

{Scrubbed}

[Sholos]

Originally Posted by Thajocoth

Wait for a pause, smile while looking at her, and then just say what's in your heart. (Not "blood". I mean your metaphorical heart, not the organ.)

What's in my heart is that I'm very much starting to like her as a friend and more and I'm scared that she's going to completely cut off from me if I tell her I like her. It's happened before. In fact, the usual pattern of my interaction with women is a sudden cessation of communication on their part. And no one can tell me why, not even my best friends.

A mixture of both I think. A relationship is a bond. Think back to chemistry. A hydrogen bond shares one electron, and is rather weak. Two carbons can share 3 electrons to have a really strong bond. The bond itself needs those electrons, and the atoms aren't quite whole without the bond, but they get by without it if they need to.

So, you can get some of the needs met with friends, but if your electrons are all shared with other hydrogens, how strong is your relationship going to be? They're your needs, but they're also the bond's needs in a way.

My analogy probably isn't perfect... And it's very much an opinion, just like the rest of what I've said on this topic.

Huh.

Originally Posted by Saposhiente

Well... why can't you? (On principle. I of course can't give detailed advice nor advice that should be paid great attention to without details.)

I'm scared I'm going to lose what friendship I've built and I have no idea (well, not none, but little) idea of what she feels for me. PM me. I don't mind getting detailed, but I'd rather not in public (even anonymously).

What you do is, don't change the topic; create the topic. If for example you want to take her out to a movie, first ask her about the movie and if she hasn't seen it then you can ask her whether she'd like to see it with you.

I actually did exactly that. We went to see Looper. Got dinner beforehand. It was fun. She kept leaning away from me, though, and sitting on the opposite side of her seat from me (though she'd lean back occasionally, I guess). I don't know if that really means anything.

Originally Posted by Reluctance

{Scrubbed}

How are tennis balls going to help?

Making a move is unlikely to work now - there's that whole "known you forever, don't wanna risk it" thing going against you - but seriously just do it. Remember what I said about social skills being skills with a strong learned component? You'll likely goof on earlier tries, but look at it as leveling your skills up. You'll learn what works and what doesn't, you'll get more confident, and you'll stop stressing.

I've actually only known her for maybe a year, been interacting with her over the spring semester and now the fall. Which is why I want to ask now, before that happens (except that it's almost happening with me...). The only thing I've learned that doesn't work is getting to know the person much at all before something starts. At least that's the way it feels.

I'll say this nicely once before going back to the classic Reluctance mode. What are you doing to force yourself out of your shell, to interact with other people, and to make yourself a more active, engaging, and interesting person? All of this "why is everything so danged hard?" just means you're letting your skills fail to advance. Which only means you fall further behind the curve as you (and by extension, your circle of peers) gets older.

Nothing really. I'm attending the same clubs, working at the same place. I made it a point to talk to all the new members that showed up, but the vast majority of them have stopped coming (seriously, the one club I think retained maybe 2 or 3 new members, and the other one I think only 1 or 2 stayed). I tried going to a science fiction book club, but I'm pretty sure I was at least 30 years younger than the next youngest person there. I felt completely out of place. Other than that, my time is chaotic since the work schedule is done weekly and I'm not always working the same nights and I'm frequently working nights at that (the time most socializing is done). I also don't have a car, though that's less of an issue here than other places since everywhere is pretty easy to reach, but still becomes a problem at times.

I have started to force myself to randomly contact people during the day, just sending a "How are you doing?" text or similar. It works sometimes, but a lot of the people I know are students and so their chat time and hang out time is limited, and a lot of the time they'd rather be hanging out with people their age (guess I can't really blame them). Everything I could do to meet people my age costs money that I don't have.

As for making myself a more active, engaging, and interesting person... I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to do. Most of my interests are things no one outside the field cares about or are hard to share with someone who doesn't have the technical knowledge I do. It's hard to talk about the cool new algorithms someone has come up with if the person I'm talking to doesn't even really know what algorithms are in the first place, let alone understand the significance of dropping an n^2 function to an nlog(n) function (something about genetic sequencing).

(True story. The first time I tried asking a girl out, the hallway suddenly got very crowded and I couldn't get the words out properly. Forcing myself to socialize with bored bystanders (admittedly harder today when everybody has internet-connected devices) and asking for numbers was how I leveled my skills to the "competent" level. The rest is just a natural side-effect of normal social interaction.)

My normal social interaction is pretty much limited to the 2 or 3 times a week I see people for a couple hours at a club meeting. There are very few people I see outside of those settings, and I don't even really see them all that much. It was even worse when you start talking about my life 5+ years back. I never did much of anything with anyone outside of very brief interactions in school (the 3 years during high school at least). I don't understand much of anything, and people are far less willing to be patient with a 27-year old who doesn't have social graces than they are with a 12-year old.

I'm also very bad at perceiving how others see me as a person. I'm constantly assuming that everyone thinks neutral thoughts of me at best, if they think of me at all, despite assurances to the contrary. But then I find out about things happening with groups that I think of as friends (from time to time) where it's clear I was never even thought of, or dismissed as a possible participant. I'm rarely if ever invited to random get-togethers and practically no one ever contacts me just to say hi or ask to hang out or anything else. Everyone is busy with everyone besides me (is what it feels like). And maybe they don't invite me because they figure I'll be busy, but I'd still like to be invited even if I have to say no! The old saying, "It's the thought that counts," does in fact have a point. Especially with someone like me.

On an aside and hopefully irrelevant topic, almost every single girl I meet is either in a relationship or actively avoiding them. There don't seem to be any single girls that are open to the idea of a relationship. I don't know if it's where I am or what, but it's been annoying in the past.

[Reluctance]

Originally Posted by Sholos

On an aside and hopefully irrelevant topic, almost every single girl I meet is either in a relationship or actively avoiding them. There don't seem to be any single girls that are open to the idea of a relationship. I don't know if it's where I am or what, but it's been annoying in the past.

Very few girls will admit to looking for a relationship. Partially because it's a lot easier for them to find one if it's really a priority for them, partially because it can be seen as an invitation for all manner of clumsy come-ons. There's a whole social dance of subtext, and right now, learning by practice should be your priority.

-------------
{Scrubbed}
Here's what I want you to do. Assuming you can get a good rate at the campus gym as a perk of being part of the school, start going regularly. Not because you want to become a greek god (although I'd be lying if I said it didn't help with the ladies), but because regular exercise makes you feel better.

You have the internet. By extension, all manner of information. Study up on normal person hobbies. Browse OKC to see what shows are popular with locals and catch up on Hulu. Find out about free cultural events nearby and see what you can attend.

Basically, doing things will give you a wider repertoire of things to talk about. That'll give you more options to talk to the normal people.

[Heliomance]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

There's this thing I like to call sour-grapes sexual. People who can't get any playing the whole "I don't see why everybody else is so obsessed with hooking up and feeding their baser natures" sort of thing. Your whole post had that air of "I don't get why you think occasional physical affection is such a big thing". Had the whole sour grapsiness to it.

First, what I said was not "I don't get why you think occasional physical affection is such a big thing". I love physical affection. I'm a very tactile person. What I said was that how easily you think the other person will put out should not be a priority if you're looking for a serious relationship. Because in most cases, a serious relationship will get to that point sooner or later. But physical intimacy is not the thing that makes or breaks a relationship. Mostly, it's about personality. If you get on well with your partner, and you stay in the relationship, sex will be involved at some point down the line. If you don't get on with them, it doesn't matter how good or how early the sex is, the relationship isn't going to work.

All that aside, that STILL doesn't give you the right to ask me "did you get any?"
It's a completely inappropriate question and I am really rather offended. I would appreciate an apology.

[Morph Bark]

A lot of people aren't actively looking for a relationship. This usually means they wouldn't mind starting one if the oppurtunity presents itself with a person they like, but won't get into it very quickly or will seem to "avoid" them, because if they appear to others as if they are active looking, they think they might get into kinds of situations they don't want to get into (such as being hit on or get the "awkward come-ons" spoken of above).

When most people around you are like this, especially people you like and are interested in, your best bet is to just go about being yourself and talking to them as you would to other people so they get to know you. This does not necessarily mean hanging out (especially in groups, because then you give off a vibe that comes across as "let's be friends", rather than what Sholos seems to be looking for here (exceptions are big events and birthdays though)). At some point after a little while, when you've at least talked about some personal things, ask if they'd like to do something with just the two of you. If they agree, the chances they are interested in you are high. It still is not a certainty though (and if they invite other people along it's more likely the opposite and they really do just want to be friends).

[dehro]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

Very few girls will admit to looking for a relationship. Partially because it's a lot easier for them to find one if it's really a priority for them, partially because it can be seen as an invitation for all manner of clumsy come-ons. There's a whole social dance of subtext, and right now, learning by practice should be your priority.

either I talk to a different kind of girl than you do..or you're making rather broad generalisations..and those never really help explaining anyone's argument.

[Sholos]

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

When most people around you are like this, especially people you like and are interested in, your best bet is to just go about being yourself and talking to them as you would to other people so they get to know you. This does not necessarily mean hanging out (especially in groups, because then you give off a vibe that comes across as "let's be friends", rather than what Sholos seems to be looking for here (exceptions are big events and birthdays though)). At some point after a little while, when you've at least talked about some personal things, ask if they'd like to do something with just the two of you. If they agree, the chances they are interested in you are high. It still is not a certainty though (and if they invite other people along it's more likely the opposite and they really do just want to be friends).

Wait, does that mean to hang out in something other than big groups or only big groups? I'm just having a bit of trouble parsing.

Originally Posted by dehro

either I talk to a different kind of girl than you do..or you're making rather broad generalisations..and those never really help explaining anyone's argument.

I think he's saying that on average, it's a lot easier for a girl to find someone who wants to be with them than the opposite. None of the girls I know that are single are for want of opportunity. They've all chosen to be single. And in at least one case not even that worked. She's getting married in January. I mean, she obviously chose to be with the guy, but before that she had actively been against a relationship of any kind.

[Serpentine]

Last I heard, studies in the area found that while women have better luck than men when it comes to casual sex, men and women are both about the same when it comes to committed relationships. Which kinda makes sense considering, you know, there's usually two people involved in every relationship and most people are heterosexual (and I imagine there's reasonably equivalent numbers of lesbians and gay men), so for every woman who gets in a relationship there is (overall) a man who also gets in a relationship.

[dehro]

Originally Posted by Sholos

I think he's saying that on average, it's a lot easier for a girl to find someone who wants to be with them than the opposite. None of the girls I know that are single are for want of opportunity. They've all chosen to be single. And in at least one case not even that worked. She's getting married in January. I mean, she obviously chose to be with the guy, but before that she had actively been against a relationship of any kind.

I understand his reasoning.. I just disagree with the premise that very few women say it when they want a relationship.
in my experience, women who are after that have very little qualms about saying so.
since my experience is contradicting his sweeping statement, that's why I called it a generalisation.
the very wording of "admitting it" sounds laced with bad memories and stereotypes where the women are all secretly out to lure a male prey, put a ring on it and be free to let themselves finally go.

[Reluctance]

Originally Posted by Serpentine

Last I heard, studies in the area found that while women have better luck than men when it comes to casual sex, men and women are both about the same when it comes to committed relationships. Which kinda makes sense considering, you know, there's usually two people involved in every relationship and most people are heterosexual (and I imagine there's reasonably equivalent numbers of lesbians and gay men), so for every woman who gets in a relationship there is (overall) a man who also gets in a relationship.

My point was that by the time a girl is frustrated enough to tell total strangers/casual acquaintances that she's on the prowl, she's probably frustrated enough to drop her standards to the point where somebody becomes available. If you're talking relationship searching in general, some bizarre quirk in the alien female psyche leaves them unenthused about Mr. "meh, he's not much, but at least he'll have me".

That, and a woman who wants to broadcast that she's looking for a relationship is much more likely to play up nonverbal signals (mostly dress and body language) while maintaining plausible deniability with her words. Not playing gender wars here. Just explaining why human women prefer to be a little more subtle than flashing their engorged red buttocks when they're interested.

[Astrella]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

My point was that by the time a girl is frustrated enough to tell total strangers/casual acquaintances that she's on the prowl, she's probably frustrated enough to drop her standards to the point where somebody becomes available. If you're talking relationship searching in general, some bizarre quirk in the alien female psyche leaves them unenthused about Mr. "meh, he's not much, but at least he'll have me".

Stuff like that has to do with socialization and societal attitudes, not "some bizarre quirk in the alien female psyche".

[bluewind95]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

My point was that by the time a girl is frustrated enough to tell total strangers/casual acquaintances that she's on the prowl, she's probably frustrated enough to drop her standards to the point where somebody becomes available. If you're talking relationship searching in general, some bizarre quirk in the alien female psyche leaves them unenthused about Mr. "meh, he's not much, but at least he'll have me".

That, and a woman who wants to broadcast that she's looking for a relationship is much more likely to play up nonverbal signals (mostly dress and body language) while maintaining plausible deniability with her words. Not playing gender wars here. Just explaining why human women prefer to be a little more subtle than flashing their engorged red buttocks when they're interested.

In my experience, women tend to say they are looking for a relationship when they are, and they tend to say they are not when, you know, they aren't. If they do say no when they are looking for one, it tends to mean "I really don't like you that way, but I'm trying to spare your feelings about it, and would rather you leave me alone about this". They also don't use dress to broadcast they're looking for a relationship. Many women just like to feel good about how they look, rather than dress pretty for all them males to know she wants a relationship. Women may also actually not be looking for a relationship and then get into one, not because they lied about their intentions, but because someone really interesting came along and they took that chance.

I'm... not entirely sure you understand women. Certainly not in general.

[Reluctance]

{Scrubbed}

[Serpentine]

What self-deception? People find things they weren't looking for all the time.

[The Succubus]

Originally Posted by Serpentine

What self-deception? People find things they weren't looking for all the time.

So if I actively stop looking for my front door keys I might actually be able to find the bloody things in the morning?

[Morph Bark]

Originally Posted by Sholos

Wait, does that mean to hang out in something other than big groups or only big groups? I'm just having a bit of trouble parsing.

I meant not to hang out in groups, because that gives off a very different vibe from just hanging out with the two of you. The exceptions are big events and birthdays, because it's a very different setting. If you go to events with someone you like, it feels kind of like a date, but it's also in a "safer" environment (at least, with most events this is the case; if you go to an erotica convention this is clearly different). Birthdays are "safe" by default, unless you invite the other person along to a birthday of someone they don't know.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by dehro

either I talk to a different kind of girl than you do..or you're making rather broad generalisations..and those never really help explaining anyone's argument.

Well, by necessity we have to talk in generalities till we get to a specific person and even then, we're still obligated to do so by a lack of intimate details and forum decorum.

In general, if a woman makes it openly known that she's looking for a beau, she's going to get a lot of unwanted attention and harassment, even and/or especially from her circle of male friends, depending.

In general, with the way it's set up, women have an easier time finding someone, but standards, social taboo, and various other factors I am either not aware of or don't particularly feel like expounding upon at length get in the way of that, like the inherent risks of being a ciswoman culturally and biologically.

And if a man is on the prowl/hunt/wossname and meeting women, the culturally expected reaction is to demur, even if she is currently on the market herself. At least, if I recall demur's usage in language properly, the dictionary is "eh, close enough." Which does seem to tie-in with the initial scenario that started this discussion. Admitting that you're also looking for someone to someone who is looking for someone is a quick way to send signals that one does not necessarily want sent, and certainly not before getting a better feel for the other person.

Originally Posted by Astrella

Stuff like that has to do with socialization and societal attitudes, not "some bizarre quirk in the alien female psyche".

That's not supposed to be taken literally, you might object to the phraseology of the device, but that's not what Reluctance is thinking or espousing, necessarily. Usually it's a bit tough to tell, but this is one of the clearer examples of their use of figurative language as a form of emphasis, as far as I can tell anyway. Sarcasm usually not being one's personal views and all.

[Sholos]

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

I meant not to hang out in groups, because that gives off a very different vibe from just hanging out with the two of you. The exceptions are big events and birthdays, because it's a very different setting. If you go to events with someone you like, it feels kind of like a date, but it's also in a "safer" environment (at least, with most events this is the case; if you go to an erotica convention this is clearly different). Birthdays are "safe" by default, unless you invite the other person along to a birthday of someone they don't know.

Ah, that's what I thought you were saying. And something I've definitely seen happen for other people. I always seem to run into walls when I do try and it's very discouraging. Walls include people being too busy to hang out with me, our schedules conflicting, or they're busy hanging out with other people. Or, the people that I do manage to hang out one-on-one are non-single or guys. I'm still trying, but it quickly gets frustrating when no one seems to have any time for me personally.

[dehro]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

{Scrubbed}

it's a self evident truth.. that anybody who has lived past the age of..12, can vouch for.
I do believe the "much reaction" you get stems from your delivery, rather than from the content.

[Serpentine]

The thing is, this supposed "deception" that's being taken for granted is anything but. The claim that a girl is lying when she says she's not looking for a relationship if some time later she is in one is founded on three assumptions:
1. A girl is only capable of falling for someone if she is actively intending to do so,
2. Girls are incapable of changing their minds or being subject to changing circumstances, and
3. Girls have some sort of mystical power to see the future.

While the insistance that women are superhuman beings incapable of being merely wrong is flattering, it is not very useful in a respectful discussion of human relations.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Serpentine

The thing is, this supposed "deception" that's being taken for granted is anything but. The claim that a girl is lying when she says she's not looking for a relationship if some time later she is in one is founded on three assumptions:
1. A girl is only capable of falling for someone if she is actively intending to do so,
2. Girls are incapable of changing their minds or being subject to changing circumstances, and
3. Girls have some sort of mystical power to see the future.

While the insistance that women are superhuman beings incapable of being merely wrong is flattering, it is not very useful in a respectful discussion of human relations.

On the other hand, assuming that it's never a "white" lie also sets up a scenario where women are viewed as inconstant and incapable of knowing their own minds or choosing for themselves, which is what a number of unfortunate things from the past and present are predicated upon.

Carelessness and general humanness is more likely than malice like the old adage I'm forgetting the exact phraseology of, and all, and at the end of the day a no is a no is a no is a no, and getting told that she's not looking for someone is a fairly definitive no, which is the only thing that really matters for the purposes of romance.

[Serpentine]

There's a pretty huge range of possibility between "girls never ever tell lies" and "every single time a girl says something and then later does something that could be seen to contradict what she said before she's a dirty rotten liar" - the latter of which being the only option put forth thus far.
And it's pretty damn straightforward to go with "either way, that's a no" without going into all sorts of baseless and pointless accusations, generalisations and demonisation, and it'd be nice to see that happen more often.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Thread locked for review.

[SMEE]

The Rainbow Mod: Thread re-opened for posting.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, I must admit, I've had to rethink the degree of my Devil's Advocacy.

[The Succubus]

In that case, I shall have a rethink on my Demon's Advocacy.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Horray! It's back! So how be the woes and the advisers? Anything good or bad happening?