General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord

[Tavar]

Just thought I should mention this, but the developers have confirmed that Exalted 3ed will not be out in December, but is currently pushed back until February.

[Exthalion]

Originally Posted by tonberrian

Let us not discuss the ENTIRE CASTE of Alchemicals for which that is not the case, simply because Adamants are so different they might as well be a different splat.

Leaving aside that, you would still have a very diverse lot. There are certainly some Alchemicals who are heroes because that's what they have to be. There are others, however, that go above and beyond even what they were called to do. They are not heroes because they were made to be - they have a choice, and they chose to go above and beyond the exceptionally high standards they are held to. That heroism should never be discounted.

EXACTLY!!! Finally, someone who gets what I have been driving at.

That most of the Alchemical Host is heroic does not mean that the splat has the blanket of most heroic. True heroism among the Alchemicals comes from those who have a choice and chose to be heroic. Just like with every other splat, it is individual choice.

[tonberrian]

Originally Posted by Exthalion

EXACTLY!!! Finally, someone who gets what I have been driving at.

That most of the Alchemical Host is heroic does not mean that the splat has the blanket of most heroic. True heroism among the Alchemicals comes from those who have a choice and chose to be heroic. Just like with every other splat, it is individual choice.

Nah, I still believe that Alchemicals are flat out more heroic, on average.

This has more to do with the canon NPC examples than anything else, however. Non-Alchie NPCs are petty jerks, as a general rule. Aside from those introduced in Masters of Jade or Shards.

[Exthalion]

Originally Posted by tonberrian

Nah, I still believe that Alchemicals are flat out more heroic, on average.

This has more to do with the canon NPC examples than anything else, however.

You are entitled to your opinion, so long as Excessively Righteous Blossom isn't the one leading your mass social combat unit you should be fine.

[golentan]

Originally Posted by tonberrian

This has more to do with the canon NPC examples than anything else, however. Non-Alchie NPCs are petty jerks, as a general rule. Aside from those introduced in Masters of Jade or Shards.

One of the best moments for me in Compass Autochthonia had to be when I realized that even the canonical apostate we have a full writeup on is a pretty chill guy. I'm not saying I'd want Herald of the Black Engine to date my daughter/son, but I could see grabbing a beer with him.

[Exthalion]

Originally Posted by golentan

One of the best moments for me in Compass Autochthonia had to be when I realized that even the canonical apostate we have a full writeup on is a pretty chill guy. I'm not saying I'd want Herald of the Black Engine to date my daughter/son, but I could see grabbing a beer with him.

So we are saying that the writing team for Alchemicals was better than the ones that wrote the prior ones? That was ever in question?

[golentan]

Originally Posted by Exthalion

So we are saying that the writing team for Alchemicals was better than the ones that wrote the prior ones? That was ever in question?

We so very much don't seem to be having the same conversation that it's kind of comical.

[Exthalion]

Originally Posted by golentan

We so very much don't seem to be having the same conversation that it's kind of comical.

I was joking. Using the NPCs as an example of the greater heroism of Alchemicals as a splat is flawed as the quality of NPC writers has improved. Doubtless the signature Solars in 3E will be of a similar level of interesting heroism as the alchemical NPCs. (Instead of almost to a (wo)man being hated for stupidity and pettiness).

While it may be that Alchemicals are more heroic on average, that seems to me an empirical question. As the writers are the one's who decide the facts of the world they more or less decide. My point is that Alchemicals do not have an a priori claim to being the most heroic simply because their raw material comes from a bunch of endorphin junkies who have a tendency to do dramatic things.

In order to normalize the level of heroism between Alchemicals and Creation born Exalts the fact that much Alchemical heroism is inflated or not of their own making must be considered. We don't say a crack baby is responsible for their addiction, so a certain degree of writing off of heroism is required for alchemicals due to their inbuilt conditioning to perform in a glory seeking manner. (Glory seeking+success=heroism in the traditional definition)

There may be other factors such as the greater intrinsic danger of authochthonia producing more heroes among the Alchemicals. These are separate from the innate qualities of the splat and should be treated as such.

[Kobold-Bard]

Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard

Can Principle Invoking Onslaught (Infernals p.135) cause secondary effects based on the chosen effect?

eg. if I throw a fireball using it, will the target be set on fire, or if I drop a gallon of sulphuric acid on them will the horrible burns affect their Appearance?

Or is it just for making people into gold statues and such?

To follow up on this based on the answers I got, PIO can't be used to, eg. emulate a tidal wave and put out fires (since Mind-Hand cant do that), or be a perfectly pitched sonic scream that has a greater effect on glass creatures (since sonic tends to shatter glass)? The non-clinch effect is purely for making Resources out of dead mortals?

Not griping or anything, just want to confirm.

[Exthalion]

Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard

To follow up on this based on the answers I got, PIO can't be used to, eg. emulate a tidal wave and put out fires (since Mind-Hand cant do that), or be a perfectly pitched sonic scream that has a greater effect on glass creatures (since sonic tends to shatter glass)? The non-clinch effect is purely for making Resources out of dead mortals?

Not griping or anything, just want to confirm.

I am given to understand killing mortals isn't the only way. Smacking rocks or trees apparently also works fine. Though one wonders what would happen if you created undiluted Fluoroantimonic acid (20 quadrillion times stronger than pure sulpheric acid). That stuff will actually dissolve hydrocarbons, which sounds unpleasant when applied to anything.

[Andreaz]

Originally Posted by tonberrian

Nah, I still believe that Alchemicals are flat out more heroic, on average.

This has more to do with the canon NPC examples than anything else, however. Non-Alchie NPCs are petty jerks, as a general rule. Aside from those introduced in Masters of Jade or Shards.

That's not an alchemical thing as much as it is an Autochthonian thing. There are two things that ensure alchies are like that: How they exist and why they exist.
1) Alchemicals rely on mortals and autochthon. If either is gone, no new alchemicals can be made and their population will decrease into nothing over time.
This is important, but is almost completely shadowed by...
2) Alchemicals are servants. They were made for the people, their mission is for the people, and mortals rule them. Their command is merely a consequence of their competence.

That said, the only reason they are less ambiguous than creation-born exalts is because Autochthonia is even more screwed than Creation.

[aetherialDawn]

Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard

To follow up on this based on the answers I got, PIO can't be used to, eg. emulate a tidal wave and put out fires (since Mind-Hand cant do that), or be a perfectly pitched sonic scream that has a greater effect on glass creatures (since sonic tends to shatter glass)? The non-clinch effect is purely for making Resources out of dead mortals?

Not griping or anything, just want to confirm.

Actually, you can do both of these things!

PIO-attack the air to turn it into water to make the water that puts out the fires: Bam, done. Or PIO-attack the fires themselves to transform them into fires-that-have-been-put-out, which is more direct but a little cheesier. I'd say just make the tidal wave by transforming a bit of air into water.
(If your ST claims that air is not a material substance because exalted does not use the same physical rules as the real world, simply point out that technically, an Exalted rock also isn't a physical substance by the rules of the real world. Both of them are expressions of elemental essence, and so equally 'material' to PIO. This is also why Gunstar Autochthonia has vacuum. Exalted air is not absence-of-solid, but instead air elemental essence instead of earth or wood or mixed or etc. elemental essence.)

You can do the sonic scream thing too - If someone has a defense that fails against sonic attacks, then your attack is sonic and so it fails against your attack. Similarly so if they take aggravated damage from sonic attacks. You can't impose a weakness on them they don't have, but if they already had a weakness against sonic attacks you can exploit it. So a glass creature that isn't inherently vulnerable to sonic attacks doesn't become so, but one that is vulnerable can have that vulnerability exploited by appropriate PIO use.

PIO, yes, has very simple mechanics - it's just that transforming the material state of things is absurdly flexible, however simple it is.
(As for esoteric acids, antimatter, etc. remember that the amount you create is based on the Resources cost, and you have a cap. If you couldn't buy antimatter with money in Exalted, you can't make it with PIO alone. I recommend custom expansion charms if you still want to engage in such things.)

[Kobold-Bard]

Originally Posted by aetherialDawn

Actually, you can do both of these things!

PIO-attack the air to turn it into water to make the water that puts out the fires: Bam, done. ...

But if making water puts out fire, then why doesn't conjuring acid **** someone's face up? Both are mechanical effects.

You're right about the sonic thing though, I didn't think that through. How far does exploiting existing vulnerabilities go though? Could I make it affect immaterial targets by shooting force arrows? If I win Sol's forgiveness, could I exploit CoD's vulnerability to Holy effects?

[Dragnar]

Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard

But if making water puts out fire, then why doesn't conjuring acid **** someone's face up? Both are mechanical effects.

Technically you could. Convert something else above the target's head into acid, it'll burn them. Problem? That isn't your attack. It's just some falling liquid created in the aftermath. Falling liquid that they are entirely free to dodge, and that likely takes a lower DV to avoid than your essence-boosted TK.

[Lix Lorn]

Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard

To follow up on this based on the answers I got, PIO can't be used to, eg. emulate a tidal wave and put out fires (since Mind-Hand cant do that), or be a perfectly pitched sonic scream that has a greater effect on glass creatures (since sonic tends to shatter glass)? The non-clinch effect is purely for making Resources out of dead mortals?

Not griping or anything, just want to confirm.

I'd say either of those is perfectly within range for stunts.

The thing with exalted is that what little balance it has is knife-edge balance. If you let PIO do aggravated because oh god acid, or you let it ignore soak because it's conjured inside them, or any other similar thing, then it just becomes too powerful. You can stunt utility effects and that's clever, but if you just stunt more power, then you just break it.

And MHM is pretty massively powerful anyway...

[Yuki Akuma]

Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard

But if making water puts out fire, then why doesn't conjuring acid **** someone's face up? Both are mechanical effects.

There are already rules for attacks dealing Crippling effects instead of killing people. Reducing Appearance is explicitly called out as an example.

[golentan]

Originally Posted by Dragnar

Technically you could. Convert something else above the target's head into acid, it'll burn them. Problem? That isn't your attack. It's just some falling liquid created in the aftermath. Falling liquid that they are entirely free to dodge, and that likely takes a lower DV to avoid than your essence-boosted TK.

See, this is why you don't attack the air above their head. You attack the surface they're standing on so they fall into it. I once threatened to turn an enemy's boat into resources four worth of vitriol and let them see how long it took the water to dilute it...

[Exthalion]

Originally Posted by golentan

See, this is why you don't attack the air above their head. You attack the surface they're standing on so they fall into it. I once threatened to turn an enemy's boat into resources four worth of vitriol and let them see how long it took the water to dilute it...

I did much the same thing once. It was pure sodium instead of vitriol though. and it was their water jars instead of their boat.

[Dragnar]

Originally Posted by golentan

See, this is why you don't attack the air above their head. You attack the surface they're standing on so they fall into it. I once threatened to turn an enemy's boat into resources four worth of vitriol and let them see how long it took the water to dilute it...

...Yeah, good luck with that, given that resources 4 of Vitriol is something like a single bucket full. (just enough to soak a single artifact in) If you're lucky that might deal like 1 damage before it's gone! :P (The alternative in which is WORKS just gets you beaten over the head for abusing the poor easily broken system even more...)

[golentan]

Originally Posted by Dragnar

...Yeah, good luck with that, given that resources 4 of Vitriol is something like a single bucket full. (just enough to soak a single artifact in) If you're lucky that might deal like 1 damage before it's gone! :P (The alternative in which is WORKS just gets you beaten over the head for abusing the poor easily broken system even more...)

Refined vitriol is enough to dissolve a demon at resources 4 or baptize a daiklave (given the size of the typical daiklave/demon and the fact it needs to be completely submerged, I'd say significantly more than a few buckets. Think bathtub at a minimum). The unrefined volume is significantly greater (enough to immerse a hellstrider or thereabouts) and since I'm not making artifacts I feel safe using the unrefined material.

[Story Time]

...it's been a while, but I've seen Exalted played as a dimension where each element is self-cohesive. This served as a partial explanation for a complete lack of gravity even though things tended to fall like normal.

Wyld Folk complained about having to make wings in order to fly. Weird.

[Exthalion]

Originally Posted by Story Time

...it's been a while, but I've seen Exalted played as a dimension where each element is self-cohesive. This served as a partial explanation for a complete lack of gravity even though things tended to fall like normal.

Wyld Folk complained about having to make wings in order to fly. Weird.

Or, you could just use Aristotle's theory that elements have a proper place that they seek to go to.

[aetherialDawn]

Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard

You're right about the sonic thing though, I didn't think that through. How far does exploiting existing vulnerabilities go though? Could I make it affect immaterial targets by shooting force arrows? If I win Sol's forgiveness, could I exploit CoD's vulnerability to Holy effects?

No, because force hitting immaterial things is a DnD convention. Unless you have a known means to strike the immaterial, summoning any number of material phenomena won't assist you.

If your ST has you discover a particular liquid which interacts with the material and the immaterial equally and inflicts terrible harm to anything not primarily of water essence, that's their business. ESPECIALLY if they put it within the scope of Resources and thus PIO (or just allow you to use it anyway.)

As noted, acid is likely to be easy to dodge, and I'm pretty sure I mentioned: Acid CAN wreck someone's appearance. It's just that the part of the rules which allows it makes it clear that it is more effective to just kill someone.

I mentioned this in response to the previous PIO question. The same rules also allow for fun things like darkness that eats into the eyes and takes root, causing someone to cry drops of shadow and never see again. (Ebby's blinding charm is better, but hey, if you're deep into Swirly's tree and want to pretend to be a Fiend...)

For more fun, why not start messing with people - create stone which is like stone in all ways, save that it obeys Aristotle's physics instead of Exalted physics.
Drive Sidereals mad with areas that appear perfectly normal.
(This may run into the problem that antimatter/etc. does: Your ST could reasonably claim such an object to not be within the scope of Resources, and thus not within the scope of PIO.)

Also, dreamstone with particular dreams inside have a set price. It's stretching the limits a bit, but PIO can program movies.

I think one of my favorite things is PIO-ing lots of Firedust everywhere, and then PIO-ing fire. Perhaps not as effective as basic attacks, but big explosions have a certain coolness factor.

[Qwertystop]

Originally Posted by aetherialDawn

For more fun, why not start messing with people - create stone which is like stone in all ways, save that it obeys Aristotle's physics instead of Exalted physics.
Drive Sidereals mad with areas that appear perfectly normal.
(This may run into the problem that antimatter/etc. does: Your ST could reasonably claim such an object to not be within the scope of Resources, and thus not within the scope of PIO.)

What exactly is the difference?

[Lord Raziere]

its that the world as it normally is, is normal, but imperfectly normal. thats how strange stuff happens you see? those daily weird little occurrences.
however perfectly normal looks exactly the same….but without the strange stuff, it would drive Sidereals crazy because Creation here is this is too normal, this is too normal, and that this is not normal! and Sidereals are like "its like there is something WRONG here, but there is nothing wrong here! what in the world is happening!"

[Amechra]

Actually, why isn't there a Sidereal charm that does something like that?

I mean that gives people feelings about areas by messing around with Fate.

Maybe a method of modifying Arcane Fate, and a way to apply it to an area?

[lord pringle]

For artifacts do you have to pay the attunement cost everyday, or just once?

[Kyeudo]

Originally Posted by lord pringle

For artifacts do you have to pay the attunement cost everyday, or just once?

The motes spent attuning an artifact are committed as long as you have the artifact attuned. You spend them just once, but you don't get them back until you let the attunement lapse.

[lord pringle]

Originally Posted by Kyeudo

The motes spent attuning an artifact are committed as long as you have the artifact attuned. You spend them just once, but you don't get them back until you let the attunement lapse.

Okay. Also, how long does an anima banner last?

[Kobold-Bard]

Originally Posted by lord pringle

Okay. Also, how long does an anima banner last?

It goes down one level per scene (assuming you don't spend more Peripheral Essence during that scene) until it's completely hidden again.