General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord

[Lix Lorn]

The answer most people are going to give is NO, BAD.
The answer I would give you is that it should be E6 or higher, and the target has to meet all prereqs, and can only learn charms that both you have, and he has two essence HIGHER than the prereqs for.
(Or if it's only granting charms he could learn anyway, then he only has to meet prereqs, since it's just a training time-bypass)

[Rikandur Azebol]

Originally Posted by Lord Raziere

1. Solars are all about swapping the fluff. If they weren't bound by the human aesthetic, I would already be a dragon-man doing various solar things through conjured Icefire inventions.

Why not ? Canon example of posthuman Solar is queen K'tula. All tentacly and stuff. Non canon example is my most successful Exalted character ever a Night Caste who spent some time in the Wyld and then was played as classic red dragon. Were it not for the fact that ST got married Creation would be mine.

[Kobold-Bard]

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

The answer most people are going to give is NO, BAD.
The answer I would give you is that it should be E6 or higher, and the target has to meet all prereqs, and can only learn charms that both you have, and he has two essence HIGHER than the prereqs for.
(Or if it's only granting charms he could learn anyway, then he only has to meet prereqs, since it's just a training time-bypass)

The writers seem to agree with you for the most part:

GIFTS OF GREATER GLORY
Cost: —; Mins: Essence 4; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Obvious
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Scoured Perfection of Form

...

The bestowed Charm need not be one that the Infernal knows or is even capable of learning, but it must be one that the target is naturally capable of learning and already meets all required trait minimums and prerequisites for.

...

[Yuki Akuma]

Originally Posted by tonberrian

You mean aside from the charm that already grants charms? In The Broken Winged Crane? I mean, if you're granting other charmsets, that's different enough to warrant its own discussion.

Oh. That already exists?

...Welp, this is what I get for not paying much attention to Cecelyne before.

[Lix Lorn]

Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard

The writers seem to agree with you for the most part:

I'm one of very few people who seems to like the concept of charmshare. xD

[Tavar]

That's not charmshare: that's simply a training effect that allows the person in question to get charms, rather than simple abilities, attributes, and such.

[Lix Lorn]

Originally Posted by Tavar

That's not charmshare: that's simply a training effect that allows the person in question to get charms, rather than simple abilities, attributes, and such.

The one I was suggesting didn't have to be native charms.

[tonberrian]

Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma

Oh. That already exists?

...Welp, this is what I get for not paying much attention to Cecelyne before.

Hey, it happens to the best of us. You come up with this really cool idea for a charm, and then BAM, it hits you - it was so cool, that the writers already wrote it!

[Exthalion]

Regarding Fluff: Rule 0. There are no Sacred Cows. This is your story.

Continue with cliches as you like.

Originally Posted by tonberrian

Hey, it happens to the best of us. You come up with this really cool idea for a charm, and then BAM, it hits you - it was so cool, that the writers already wrote it!

This is, I think, a good thing. It means that your mind is working in the same way which means you likely understand how that particular charmset is supposed to work enough to see where the logical points of expansion. If you are trying to get a physical perfect defense out of linguistics you should be an Infernal playing with Elloge charms, because that isn't how it works for ability Exalts.

I think that is the actual seduction of Infernals, the understanding of what things can do is expanded drastically. A solar could make some archery charms that improve their short range combat ability (Legolas stabbing with the arrow first sort of thing.) An infernal could make an Adorjan charm that shoots love into someone's heart. (To be fair, Sidereals are often as weird as Infernals. They are just weird across the board instead of weird toward a theme.)

[Tavar]

Originally Posted by Exthalion

I think that is the actual seduction of Infernals, the understanding of what things can do is expanded drastically. A solar could make some archery charms that improve their short range combat ability (Legolas stabbing with the arrow first sort of thing.) An infernal could make an Adorjan charm that shoots love into someone's heart. (To be fair, Sidereals are often as weird as Infernals. They are just weird across the board instead of weird toward a theme.)

The infernal couldn't do that, as Adorjan is against all ranged effects. As a melee effect, or possibly a heretical effect it might work.

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

The one I was suggesting didn't have to be native charms.

Then it's so broken it makes Zeal look like good charm design.

[Qwertystop]

Originally Posted by Exthalion

(To be fair, Sidereals are often as weird as Infernals. They are just weird across the board instead of weird toward a theme.)

Yeah. Grab someone's fate, tie it to your weapon, and use it as a slingshot and autoaimer simultaneously.

[Lix Lorn]

Originally Posted by Tavar

Then it's so broken it makes Zeal look like good charm design.

Thus proving my point. Most people hate Charmshare.

[Kobold-Bard]

Except aesthetics, what's the point of making Infernal Relics?

They take the same effort as making a normal artefact (say an Orichalcum Daiklaive) and soaking it in Vitriol, except that the Infernal relic version doesn't offer a Magical Material bonus.

[Doran]

Originally Posted by Qwertystop

Yeah. Grab someone's fate, tie it to your weapon, and use it as a slingshot and autoaimer simultaneously.

What's the charm for that?

[Friv]

Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard

Except aesthetics, what's the point of making Infernal Relics?

They take the same effort as making a normal artefact (say an Orichalcum Daiklaive) and soaking it in Vitriol, except that the Infernal relic version doesn't offer a Magical Material bonus.

I'm moderately sure that an Infernal relic does, in fact, still provide the magical material bonus of the object it was before being prepared. The reason to do it is to attune to various magical materials at proper harmonization costs instead of doubling everything.

*EDIT*

Originally Posted by Doran

What's the charm for that?

Capstone Sidereal Archery.

[Yuki Akuma]

It's difficult to import magical materials into Malfeas, for a start.

Also, it's the only way to make Hellforged Wonders, which grant access to spirit charms.

Originally Posted by Friv

I'm moderately sure that an Infernal relic does, in fact, still provide the magical material bonus of the object it was before being prepared. The reason to do it is to attune to various magical materials at proper harmonization costs instead of doubling everything.

No, that's baptising a Creation-made artifact in vitriol. Infernal relics are artifacts made within the Demon Realm to begin with, and usually aren't constructed out of one of the six magical materials.

[Kobold-Bard]

Originally Posted by Friv

I'm moderately sure that an Infernal relic does, in fact, still provide the magical material bonus of the object it was before being prepared. The reason to do it is to attune to various magical materials at proper harmonization costs instead of doubling everything.

Traditional artefacts affected by Vitriol provide an MM bonus, but Infernal Relics themselves don't.

Originally Posted by MoEP: Infernals p.171

...

Many infernal relics follow the same general forms as Creation-made artifacts. They can differ significantly in material, shape and ornamentation while retaining the same functions—an infernal daiklave may be shaped from throbbing black iron and inlaid with runes of yellow jade that spell out the third secret name of Kimbery, but barring any special enchantments, it’s still a daiklave.

Infernal relics can reproduce most of the powers available from Creation made artifacts. They provide no magical material bonuses, nor can they generate Holy effects, but other abilities are fair game. The player of an Infernal character may purchase or construct any common lesser wonder, artifact weapon or artifact armor (see Exalted, pp. 380-381 and 385-391) as an infernal relic. Other artifacts may be used as templates for infernal relics at the Storyteller’s discretion.

...

[Qwertystop]

Originally Posted by Doran

What's the charm for that?

Unobstructed Blow, from Violet Bier of Sorrows Style.

[Tavar]

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

Thus proving my point. Most people hate Charmshare.

It's not that I hate it. But that charm allows a single person to make N+1 people with access to Exalted charms, which utterly breaks the setting. And, if I have to chose between the setting and a charm idea/mechanics that is mildly interesting, I'm going to chose the setting.

[Kobold-Bard]

Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma

It's difficult to import magical materials into Malfeas, for a start.

Only as hard as learning Constructive Convergence of Principles. Or just build in Creation.

Also, it's the only way to make Hellforged Wonders, which grant access to spirit charms.

...

That's a fair point however, I didn't consider that. Thanks.

Are there any advantages to Infernal Relics themselves, or are they just so you can spend more dots to turn them into Hellforged Wonders?

[tonberrian]

There's also, you know, the relics we already have? That have bonuses comparable, but different than, the MM bonuses?

[Doran]

Originally Posted by Qwertystop

Unobstructed Blow, from Violet Bier of Sorrows Style.

The charm text on the wiki says its an unarmed attack? Unless there is another charm that allows you to treat weapon / bow attacks as unarmed ones.

[Kyeudo]

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

Oh god yes.
Can I sig that?

Feel free.

[Lix Lorn]

Originally Posted by Tavar

It's not that I hate it. But that charm allows a single person to make N+1 people with access to Exalted charms, which utterly breaks the setting. And, if I have to chose between the setting and a charm idea/mechanics that is mildly interesting, I'm going to chose the setting.

Oh, whoops.
It would only work on things that already have charms.
And since mortals are capped at E3, even if they did count, the best they could get hold of are E1 charms.

[Qwertystop]

Originally Posted by Doran

The charm text on the wiki says its an unarmed attack? Unless there is another charm that allows you to treat weapon / bow attacks as unarmed ones.

Nah that bit was just a forgetting on my part.


On another note: For the purposes of Generalized Ammunition Technique, is it possible to increase the length of one's arms and the size (or just weight) of one's fists?

[Exthalion]

Originally Posted by Qwertystop

Nah that bit was just a forgetting on my part.


On another note: For the purposes of Generalized Ammunition Technique, is it possible to increase the length of one's arms and the size (or just weight) of one's fists?

On that topic, is it possible to use yourself as a projectile?

[Qwertystop]

Originally Posted by Exthalion

On that topic, is it possible to use yourself as a projectile?

Not with Generalized Ammunition unless you can manage to fold yourself such that you are the length of your arm, and all of your weight is in your fist. Or you become weightless.

[Maugan Ra]

Originally Posted by Doran

The charm text on the wiki says its an unarmed attack? Unless there is another charm that allows you to treat weapon / bow attacks as unarmed ones.

Many Missiles Bow Technique. Uses a prayer strip to triple the range of your bow shots for the scene as it's basic effect, and also allows you to transform your shots in flight into things like the following for one mote apiece:

- Boulders etc. Want to shoot someone with a suddenly appearing ACME Anvil? Now you can, and it becomes unblockable as well.
- Glass, so the enemy has to make a perception test to keep track of it, otherwise it becomes unexpected.
- Love, so you fire against a target of their Dodge MDV, and if you hit they suffer an Intimacy of love for the first person they see that will remain strong for about a week.
- Grain, so that a lovely patch of tasty food sprouts where you shoot.
- Fire, which is somewhat self explanatory, but always fun to exploit.
- Health. You hit them, and they regain a number of health levels equal to the Sidereal's archery score. Doesn't work on Aggravated.
- Precipitation. Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow...

Sidereals. They're just weird.

[Yuki Akuma]

Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard

Only as hard as learning Constructive Convergence of Principles. Or just build in Creation.

Most people who live in Malfeas can't learn Primordial charms or visit Creation whenever they please.

Originally Posted by Doran

The charm text on the wiki says its an unarmed attack? Unless there is another charm that allows you to treat weapon / bow attacks as unarmed ones.

Attacks made with form weapons count as unarmed attacks where martial arts charms are concerned.

There has to be a martial art that treats bows as a form weapon.

There is a charm that lets you treat form weapons from one martial art you know as form weapons for any other martial art you know (but I forget the name).

Ergo...

[Exthalion]

Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma

Most people who live in Malfeas can't learn Primordial charms or visit Creation whenever they please.



Attacks made with form weapons count as unarmed attacks where martial arts charms are concerned.

There has to be a martial art that treats bows as a form weapon.

There is a charm that lets you treat form weapons from one martial art you know as form weapons for any other martial art you know (but I forget the name).

Ergo...

If there isn't such a martial art, there is an easy reskin of one of the Flame Piece ones.