General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord

[Lix Lorn]

Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma

There is a charm that lets you treat form weapons from one martial art you know as form weapons for any other martial art you know (but I forget the name).

Ergo...

Master's Hand Reimagined Anew, iirc. It is E6 for TMA, E7 for CMA. I think.

[Ifni]

Wood Dragon Style treats bows as a form weapon, iirc.

[Tavar]

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

Oh, whoops.
It would only work on things that already have charms.
And since mortals are capped at E3, even if they did count, the best they could get hold of are E1 charms.

Enlightened Mortals can have charms, though that cap would help a bit.

Of course, now you have to deal with elementals, gods, fair folk, demons, and behemohs. So, still terrible for the setting.

[Lix Lorn]

Well, for the functionality I want, it's only Exalts. So that would help.

[Tavar]

Dragonblooded and alchemicals. Sure, non elders would be limited to e3 charms at the Max, but essence three charms fore exalts are pretty game changing. Sidereals and Lunars would get quite a boon from this as well, especially if this set of charms was learner by a solar of some sort.

[Lix Lorn]

Yeah. That's kinda the point.

[tonberrian]

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

Master's Hand Reimagined Anew, iirc. It is E6 for TMA, E7 for CMA. I think.

It's worth noting that Master's Hand Envisioned Anew (the charm you're looking for) is broken as, well, okay it's less broken than Sidereal Martial Arts, but it's still broken.

[Tavar]

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

Yeah. That's kinda the point.

So you want to go back to the old version of Zeal and the like?

[Dragnar]

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

Yeah. That's kinda the point.

...Snapping the setting in half by making as many solar-charm-wielding Dragonblooded as you like is the POINT here? Sorry Lix, but even if Charmshare were not an absolutely horrific development nightmare, that breaks the setting worse than Zeal. >.<

[Exthalion]

I think one of the problems thematically is that it doesn't make sense for the Endless Desert to be able to give people charms neither she nor the individual knows or could know. She doesn't have it so she can't give it or else she could just wish grant the Yozi free were her power unrestrained.

Solar Exaltations are the most perfect Creation Autochthon has ever produced. Alchemicals would still be blueprints if he could have reproduced them. As he had a direct hand in making the things and couldn't even give his champions those charms it seems odd that a Yozi could.

Solars can allow mortals to learn their charms by basicly putting a chunk of their essence into the mortal, but that is coming entirely from the Solar and they can revoke it at any time. Something along these lines seems permissible for Verdant Emptiness Endowment.

Consider, you could give people the charms of Exalted that don't exist with this hypothetical charm. "Here, have the E1 charm of the CEYLENE SERVING SLAVE, which makes you instantly my mind slave and otherwise functions as Old Zeal." Because the people involved need not even know that the charms they are granting exist they need not confine themselves to real charms.

Any restrictions along the lines of, "This charm can only give real charms of real exalts" will be entirely arbitrary and makes no sense in context. Theoretically people could make new Exalted and it doesn't make sense for a Cosmic Principle to refer to external beings in that way.

[golentan]

Originally Posted by Exthalion

Solar Exaltations are the most perfect Creation Autochthon has ever produced. Alchemicals would still be blueprints if he could have reproduced them.

Okay, sorry to nitpick but I have to take issue with this statement. The whole reason that Autochthon fled to Elsewhere is because he was absolutely terrified off his gourd of the solar exalted. And he wasn't sure it was the great curse (they say he had suspicions, but that's not the same thing). Given that, it would have been bugnuts for him to create solars to steward the 8 nations.

Part of the point of the alchemicals is that they're dependent on Autochthon even well into their lives (best of luck to the alchemical who thinks they can get by without the Noetic Archives, which are actually physically part of the great maker) and so unlikely to turn on him, and secondly is the fact that their evolution to cities makes it extremely difficult for the most powerful exalts to physically reach a portion of him that was easily killable. And of course, if everything went terrible it's possible for him to kill off all the exalts and not have to worry about reincarnation.

Could Autochthon have replicated the solars? It's not clear. Would he? No. Not in a million years.

[Exthalion]

Originally Posted by golentan

Okay, sorry to nitpick but I have to take issue with this statement. The whole reason that Autochthon fled to Elsewhere is because he was absolutely terrified off his gourd of the solar exalted. And he wasn't sure it was the great curse (they say he had suspicions, but that's not the same thing). Given that, it would have been bugnuts for him to create solars to steward the 8 nations.

Part of the point of the alchemicals is that they're dependent on Autochthon even well into their lives (best of luck to the alchemical who thinks they can get by without the Noetic Archives, which are actually physically part of the great maker) and so unlikely to turn on him, and secondly is the fact that their evolution to cities makes it extremely difficult for the most powerful exalts to physically reach a portion of him that was easily killable. And of course, if everything went terrible it's possible for him to kill off all the exalts and not have to worry about reincarnation.

Could Autochthon have replicated the solars? It's not clear. Would he? No. Not in a million years.

You are entitled to your opinion. I was referencing a developer quote. It is of course non-canon, but it seems like their opinions strongly inform canon.

http://nobilis.me/quotes:autochthon-s-perfect-creation

See especially the last two sentences which could be a direct response to your point.

[Rikandur Azebol]

I stand by the opinion that Celestial Exaltations were too dangerous to replicate by Autochton. It was never said that he doesn't learn from his mistakes, right ?

The statement about god being able to do something that Autobot couldn't is ... somewhat putting the whole setting on it's head. Autobot is the archetype of crafter. If he couldn't craft something then it doesn't exist or shouldn't be even attempted to be crafted in the first place.

Why rely on Alchies ? Because, unlike Solars ... Alchemicals are more reliable. They are hand-picked from long line of suitably heroic incarnations. Not as random as Solar Exaltations that could happen to a complete douche in his last ever moment of greatness of his entire life.

[The_Snark]

Originally Posted by Exthalion

You are entitled to your opinion. I was referencing a developer quote. It is of course non-canon, but it seems like their opinions strongly inform canon.

http://nobilis.me/quotes:autochthon-s-perfect-creation

See especially the last two sentences which could be a direct response to your point.

An interesting article, and for the most part it makes sense, but I think Golentan has a point. I wonder what the author is thinking when he says this...

If he had spare Solar shards sitting around, I promise you there would be Solars in Autochthonia.

Eh? The idea that Autochthon would have made Solars if he could seems horribly inconsistent with his portrayal in MoEP: Alchemicals, among other places. (I note that John Mørke was not part of the writing team for that book.) The whole reason he withdrew from Creation was to get away from Solars. He's often portrayed as somewhat paranoid, and Solars have given him good reason to be wary. He didn't even fully trust his Alchemicals, which is why we have Adamant Castes. Why would he ever want uncontrollable god-killing weapons running around inside his body while he sleeps?

I tend to think that Autochthon is neither willing nor able to make more Solars on his own. If he really wanted to, I suppose he could ask the Unconquered Sun to help him with a new batch... but he doesn't.

[golentan]

No, those last two sentences aren't a direct response to my point. That addresses the question of "could." I was speaking to the question of "would." At the beginning of the first age, Auto-kun had just watched the exalted butcher many of his brothers and sisters, and horribly mutilate the others. While he had hoped for something along those lines, the reality is explicitly said to have exceeded his fears, and the dude has a third circle deva purely devoted to his fear and paranoia. He knew they would probably not turn on Gaia. Gaia was Luna's lover, she had her own chosen (albeit somewhat removed) in the form of the dragonblooded, and her souls were pivotal in Creation's geomancy. Turning on her would upset the social order, the mandate of heaven, pose risks to humanity and most of the exalted...

Auto-kun had no such safeguards. He was not essential to creation. He lacked close ties to the Incarnae and the mandate, he wasn't integral to creation or the continued function of the exalted. What he did have was one of humanity's closest allies during the war, in the form of the jadeborn. The war could not have been won without them. They had built the weapons and supply lines that kept the exalted fighting. And the exalted, in turn, saw them as a threat and (with veiled threats) ordered Autochthon to neuter his chosen people. Autochthon saw this among other signs of the solars going power mad, and freaked out. He started wondering how long until they come for me, either to mutilate me beyond recognition so I fit into their system or to kill me outright?

So he fled. And he didn't just run into the wyld, where he could have survived indefinitely on the resources he could pull from chaos. He was so scared that he fled beyond the most impenetrable barrier he could conceive of. He decided that the risks of his disease, or of starving to death in the void were less scary than the risks of solars pushing back the wyld far enough that they found him. Auto-kun was terrified of the chosen of the gods, and he didn't know why they had become so scary.

He needed champions to protect the precious human resources he needed for his exile, yes. But he didn't take even a single dragonblooded with him for fear of the power of the exalted. Just from a point of view of power, a dragonblood is far less threat than an alchemical, but they lack autochthonian essence. They were still built to rule over mortals, even if they were intended to be subordinate to the celestials. They would have risen to the top and created dynasties, and sooner or later those dynasties would have come to see him as the major competitor for the loyalty of their subordinates, and the major imposer of hardships within the eight nations. Autochthon needed exalted, but he needed them on a leash. They couldn't pass on or expand their power without the help of both mortals and Autochthon, or they might one day come gunning for him. He needed them to be, not weak, but subservient.

It is impossible to build that into a celestial shard. A celestial expands their power when and where they see fit to set their talents. A celestial will reincarnate if slain, meaning that in a worst case scenario you can't just "pull the plug" while they're in for an upgrade and vulnerable. So, in fleeing from creation's exalted for the reasons and under the circumstances he did... Understanding the depths of his paranoia that he even neutered his own souls lest they turn on him... There was no chance, none at all, that Autochthon would EVER, EVER create Solar Exalted or anything comparable in Autochthonia regardless of whether he could. It would be equivalent to writing in a scene to A New Hope showing Emperor Palpatine promoting free speech and democratic participation in terms of how out of character it would be.

[Exthalion]

Originally Posted by golentan

No, those last two sentences aren't a direct response to my point. That addresses the question of "could." I was speaking to the question of "would."

Originally Posted by golentan

Okay, sorry to nitpick but I have to take issue with this statement.

Originally Posted by John Mørke

If he had spare Solar shards sitting around, I promise you there would be Solars in Autochthonia.

Originally Posted by John Mørke

You suggest that he chose the Alchemicals because they are of superior design according to his wisdom, but that is unequivocally wrong.

Now, I don't care about you holding that opinion, but the linked developer quote does directly address the question of "would". I am not certain I am entirely in agreement with him, but I would like to make sure that we are on the same page about what is actually being said.

Strawmen make poor sparing partners and all that.

[Andreaz]

Originally Posted by Rikandur Azebol

Why not ? Canon example of posthuman Solar is queen K'tula. All tentacly and stuff. Non canon example is my most successful Exalted character ever a Night Caste who spent some time in the Wyld and then was played as classic red dragon. Were it not for the fact that ST got married Creation would be mine.

Ktula could not learn any solar magic that exploited her new form. It's why she learned Emulation Principles in the first place to get Kimbery charms.

Originally Posted by Exthalion

I think one of the problems thematically is that it doesn't make sense for the Endless Desert to be able to give people charms neither she nor the individual knows or could know. She doesn't have it so she can't give it or else she could just wish grant the Yozi free were her power unrestrained.

You can also gain backgrounds and abilities from it, it's her magic. You want something, she gives you that something and now you owe her hard for it. Your assumption is incorrect because the premise "she has to own what she gives" does not exist.

[Exthalion]

Originally Posted by Andreaz

Ktula could not learn any solar magic that exploited her new form. It's why she learned Emulation Principles in the first place to get Kimbery charms.You can also gain backgrounds and abilities from it, it's her magic. You want something, she gives you that something and now you owe her hard for it. Your assumption is incorrect because the premise "she has to own what she gives" does not exist.

So, why hasn't she granted every charm up to and beyond Cecylene Cosmic Principle to some mortal schmuck? Why hasn't she promoted another of said schmucks to be a new and loyal Unconquered Sun? etc.

My premise was not that she has to own it. My premise is that there are things she is not able to give because they are contrary to her nature. She cannot grant you a Solar Exaltation, even if she did have one in a box somewhere, because it is not the kind of thing which is hers to give. Similarly she cannot grant divine promotions or an arbitrarily large amount of ambrosia while in Creation.

Because there are things she cannot give it seems like the charms of Exalted especially, relying as they do on the trinity of an Incarnae's essence, Autochthon's handiwork, and mortal enlightenment, would be beyond her.

Consider the case of the mortal gaining some E1 solar charm. Assuming they have an essence pool it almost certainly couldn't make the charm work because the mortal lacks Solar aspected essence. It could be that the strain of trying to do so would blow them up the same way SMA is said to do to Dragon Blooded.

More to the point, even if she could somehow create the required spiritual mechanisms wholesale, how would this not be one of the things her oaths explicitly forbade?

[Andreaz]

Originally Posted by Exthalion

So, why hasn't she granted every charm up to and beyond Cecylene Cosmic Principle to some mortal schmuck? Why hasn't she promoted another of said schmucks to be a new and loyal Unconquered Sun? etc.

Chill, man. I'm talking only on cecelyne's end. There's a very specific list of what she can give you and "She has to have it" is not in there. The receiving end is fairly simpler: If he can have it, it works.

Curiously enough, mortals can't have solar charms, who knew?

[Yuki Akuma]

Originally Posted by Exthalion

So, why hasn't she granted every charm up to and beyond Cecylene Cosmic Principle to some mortal schmuck? Why hasn't she promoted another of said schmucks to be a new and loyal Unconquered Sun? etc.

Because she can only give people things that they are capable of owning.

She can give Solars Solar charms, Spirits Spirit charms, Lunars Lunar charms... but she can't give a mortal Primordial charms.

Sorry, but this is a charm she has. It's in Broken-Winged Crane.

Also I think people misunderstood my question (and then ignored me when I realised this charm already existed): the idea wasn't for Cecelyne to grant charms that the receiver couldn't naturally learn. It was just to build off of her Training charms she already has to let people ignore training times.

(Also, technically, she needs to know Martial Arts charms she grants. But that's a specific exception. She can grant any other charm or Sorcery spell whether she knows it or not, as long as the recipient is capable of learning it.)

She can also grant mutations she doesn't have! And attributes and abilities she doesn't have (because Primordials don't have attributes or abilities)! Why should charms be different?

[Kobold-Bard]

Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma

...

She can also grant mutations she doesn't have! And attributes and abilities she doesn't have (because Primordials don't have attributes or abilities)! Why should charms be different?

They don't? How do they do stuff then?

And speaking of mutations, when using Celeyne's Charm that lets you VEE someone with mutations, do they have to pay for Creature of Darkness, or is that a freebie?

If you undo all the mutations you gave someone with VEE, do they remain a CoD or not?

And finally: is there a way to undo being a Creature of Darkness besides going to the Unconquered Sun directly and getting him to Tipex your name of his Holy ****list?

[Yuki Akuma]

Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard

They don't? How do they do stuff then?

They receive... I think twenty automatic successes dice on any action that resonates with their themes (or on unopposed actions succeed with 10 threshold successes instead).

And speaking of mutations, when using Celeyne's Charm that lets you VEE someone with mutations, do they have to pay for Creature of Darkness, or is that a freebie?

Creature of Darkness is a negative mutation - it's less than a freebie, it actually helps offset the cost of positive mutations.

If you undo all the mutations you gave someone with VEE, do they remain a CoD or not?

Scoured Perfection of Form can't change anyone who isn't a CoD, so I guess it can't be used to remove the CoD mutation?

And finally: is there a way to undo being a Creature of Darkness besides going to the Unconquered Sun directly and getting him to Tipex your name of his Holy ****list?

There's probably a Solar charm that can do it! And maybe a Theion charm, too.

[Doran]

What happens mechanically if Primordials try to do things outside their themes? Do they autofail?

[Yuki Akuma]

Well first they need to spend willpower to even conceive of it. Then they start with a dice pool of 0 that they can't use their own charms to enhance (because it doesn't resonate with their themes).

I think Autochthon is the only one who can do things outside his themes with any regularity. And he kinda had to lobotomize himself to manage it.

[Andreaz]

Channeling virtues still work, but that's about it.

[Yuki Akuma]

One assumes they can stunt, too.

[Turalisj]

Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma

Well first they need to spend willpower to even conceive of it. Then they start with a dice pool of 0 that they can't use their own charms to enhance (because it doesn't resonate with their themes).

I think Autochthon is the only one who can do things outside his themes with any regularity. And he kinda had to lobotomize himself to manage it.

Source please. Developer quote or direct book quote, no implied.

[Yuki Akuma]

...Huh. Ebby's write up (Return of the Scarlet Empress, page 207) doesn't say anything about his dice pool when he does something outside of his themes, but it does say the effective ratings of his Attributes and Abilities are treated as 0 when working outside his themes.

No idea where I got the willpower thing from either.

Edit: Got something wrong there, whoops.

Edit2: It also says his Attributes and Abilties are literally 0 and just treated as being 10 when working within his themes, so yeah I guess that's pretty conclusive.

Of course, this is just the Ebon Dragon. If other Primordials work differently we have no way of knowing.

[Exthalion]

I will agree upon rereading that the proposed charm didn't have that particular problem.

The discussion of some sort of charmshare granting charm on the other hand would be absolutely terrible.

[Tavar]

Originally Posted by Turalisj

Source please. Developer quote or direct book quote, no implied.

Which part of Yuki's statement are you questioning?