Whatever I do, I make sure to tell Sun Tzu to shut up and sit down and show him how it is done.
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
You awake in a cargo hold with a buch of strangers. The door is locked and your weapons are missing
avatar by: Herpestidae
They don't. See, goblinoid culture has physical castes and is quite lawful. Nobody gets the bugbear to do the heavy thinking, but they are treated with dignity and a great deal of love.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calanon
Raven_Cry's comments often have the effects of a +5 Tome of Understanding
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Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!
They don't. See, goblinoid culture has physical castes and is quite lawful. Nobody gets the bugbear to do the heavy thinking, but they are treated with dignity and a great deal of love.
Hah! Nice. Been thinking it would be neat to have a setting where goblinoids were the dominant species, though i haven't quite put any work into it myself. would probably use something simmiler, though bugbears would likely still be fully sentiant, just in the "hard labor" caste or something.
Hah! Nice. Been thinking it would be neat to have a setting where goblinoids were the dominant species, though i haven't quite put any work into it myself. would probably use something simmiler, though bugbears would likely still be fully sentiant, just in the "hard labor" caste or something.
It would be interesting to have a fantasy novel that didn't focus on humans. I'm working on something similar with a dwarven culture that is a bit different from the norm, with gnomes as servant race. In fact, I'm having the aforementioned goblinoids be part of it as nomadic merchants and traders who travel in great caravans.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calanon
Raven_Cry's comments often have the effects of a +5 Tome of Understanding
It would be interesting to have a fantasy novel that didn't focus on humans. I'm working on something similar with a dwarven culture that is a bit different from the norm, with gnomes as servant race. In fact, I'm having the aforementioned goblinoids be part of it as nomadic merchants and traders who travel in great caravans.
You can try Kiril Eskov's"The Last Ringbearer" (available under non-commercial license). It looks like what you are looking for.
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"It was a dark night that Thursday morning..."
You think if the Dark One gets control of the Snarl he'll settle for a fair shake? He'll wreck the former oppressors, kill the enemy gods and give all the good land to goblin kind. What reason is there to play "fair" when the other gods didn't?
You think if the Dark One gets control of the Snarl he'll settle for a fair shake? He'll wreck the former oppressors, kill the enemy gods and give all the good land to goblin kind. What reason is there to play "fair" when the other gods didn't?
That's not "The world is <expletive redacted/>" That's "The humans, elves, halfling, dwarves and gnomes are <expletive redacted/>"
Though, frankly, I somehow doubt the Dark One would be able to control a creature who it took all the gods working together to seal away, at least for long.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calanon
Raven_Cry's comments often have the effects of a +5 Tome of Understanding
You think if the Dark One gets control of the Snarl he'll settle for a fair shake? He'll wreck the former oppressors, kill the enemy gods and give all the good land to goblin kind. What reason is there to play "fair" when the other gods didn't?
I agree completely. The DO won't stop at Equality - with the Snarl under his thumb, he will head all the way to Supremacy. Remember that he used to be a warlord before achieving divine status, and that he has armies marshalled in goblin heaven already. He is preparing for all-out divine war, and is simply waiting for his prophet to deliver his secret weapon before he launches the opening salvo.
What LE deity would ever settle for mere coexistence?
You think if the Dark One gets control of the Snarl he'll settle for a fair shake? He'll wreck the former oppressors, kill the enemy gods and give all the good land to goblin kind. What reason is there to play "fair" when the other gods didn't?
What I think is fully irrelevant for me asking about someone else's claim. Do not assume I expressed a personal stance in that question.
Your counter-question does not provide any sort of information beyond what might be considered obvious and as such it (and the claim the OotS-verse might be screwed a win by Redcloak) stays a bit bland.
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Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!
Exactly, he knows when to bide his time. And for most of the rest of us, that's the same as 'coexistence'.
Asmodeus/Bane/Zarus et al. bide their time only because they have no Snarl, no blunt instrument to guarantee that their will be enforced. Should Redcloak win (the premise of this thread), the DO will have that. From there, coexistence - even temporary coexistence - will no longer be necessary, and therefore he will have no reason to pursue it.
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Originally Posted by Ravens_cry
Actually, what makes me think he isn't smart is trying to control the Snarl.
I agree that he's not, but that doesn't exactly refute the notion that he would attempt such a move. For a fool to act foolishly is not out of the realm of possibility.
My prediction:
Spoiler
Redcloak will actually pull off the ritual. When all seems lost, the DO's plan will backfire - perhaps due to interference by the Order, a revelation about the true nature of the Snarl, or some other variable - and the Snarl will annihilate him instead. Redcloak will absorb the remainder of his divinity and become the goblins' new - and significantly wiser/more moderate/less warmongering - shepherd, while Jirix (if he survives) will become the new High Priest.
Asmodeus/Bane/Zarus et al. bide their time only because they have no Snarl, no blunt instrument to guarantee that their will be enforced. Should Redcloak win (the premise of this thread), the DO will have that. From there, coexistence - even temporary coexistence - will no longer be necessary, and therefore he will have no reason to pursue it.
If he plans to enact genocide, there will be resistance, Snarl or no, and if there is resistance, goblinoids will die, quite a few in fact. Gods may not need worshippers in this 'verse, but surely that is still against his interests, lawful evil or no.
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Originally Posted by Psyren
I agree that he's not, but that doesn't exactly refute the notion that he would attempt such a move. For a fool to act foolishly is not out of the realm of possibility.
Of course not, but I still don't think it the wisest move. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I hope some form of coexistence can be achieved instead of either going back to the status quo or a reversal thereof. I don't expect this to be Dark One's goal.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calanon
Raven_Cry's comments often have the effects of a +5 Tome of Understanding
I don't think that Snarl-ritual is such an ultimate weapon. The various groups of gods reside on various planes, right?(otherwise they would have been destroyed along with the Eastern pantheon) So if the Dark One actually releases the Snarl on one of them, the best scenario he can hope for is that one pantheon would be destroyed. It is very uncertain that he will be able to move the gate again (presumably, the gate would be the very first thing the Snarl devours once released). And the Dark One can not stand against the two remaining pantheons all alone. And that doesn't include the chance that the Snarl is dead, harmless, ritual won't work in that way etc.
So, the Snarl would be tremendously useful in any negotiations about improving life of goblinoids, but not in a direct war. After all, even Redcloak himself said the Dark One only plans to blackmail the other gods, not to attack them.
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I hope he gets EXACTLY what he wants. But he looses anyway.
Like if he saw his parents again and they tell him: How ASHAMED of him they are.
He wasn't a warrior of justice. But of VENGEANCE. He didn't create a society that proves how goblins are like everybody else. It only put more fuel on the fire that Goblins are worthless evil sadists.
He doesn't seem to be acknowledging the problem that lies within every Goblin. Their sadism, their war mongering. And isn't willing to change it. In fact he is egging it on.
I want Redcloak to look down and realise that he hasn't changed things. At least not permanently. All he has done is created an evil empire that will last for a generation or two before some do-gooder stops it. Then its back to the swamps to harass people again.
Last edited by Scowling Dragon : 10-31-2012 at 12:50 PM.
in the setting i'm working on, goblins are one of the 6 humanoid species (just goblins, not hobgoblins or bugbears) that exist. they're related to the halfling and the dwarf, and are generally CN (none of the humanoid races have a preference for evil, no, not even orcs). they're more nature oriented than other races, and their economy is based on raising and training animals. don't piss off the goblin rulers, or you will have battletitans knocking on/down your walls.
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78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
Where did you start yours?
The PCs were already a special forces type unit in a kingdom's military, so the campaign started in the general's office.
If he plans to enact genocide, there will be resistance, Snarl or no, and if there is resistance, goblinoids will die, quite a few in fact. Gods may not need worshippers in this 'verse, but surely that is still against his interests, lawful evil or no.
He won't have to enact genocide. With the Snarl under his thumb, the good gods would be unwilling to let so many innocents be erased just to stand up to him, not when they can live instead.
But even if it comes to all-out war, he'd still be able to rub out the good gods with the Snarl. With no god backing them, the other races would be ants before him; no clerics, no miracles, no healing, no hope.
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Originally Posted by Ravens_cry
Of course not, but I still don't think it the wisest move.
I'm... glad we agree then?
The thread's about what we think would happen, not whether we would support or value such an outcome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2323mike
I don't think that Snarl-ritual is such an ultimate weapon. The various groups of gods reside on various planes, right?(otherwise they would have been destroyed along with the Eastern pantheon) So if the Dark One actually releases the Snarl on one of them, the best scenario he can hope for is that one pantheon would be destroyed. It is very uncertain that he will be able to move the gate again (presumably, the gate would be the very first thing the Snarl devours once released). And the Dark One can not stand against the two remaining pantheons all alone. And that doesn't include the chance that the Snarl is dead, harmless, ritual won't work in that way etc.
So, the Snarl would be tremendously useful in any negotiations about improving life of goblinoids, but not in a direct war. After all, even Redcloak himself said the Dark One only plans to blackmail the other gods, not to attack them.
He's NOT alone though - there are other evil gods, e.g. the ones that protected him post-ascension to begin with, like Rat and Loki. All he would have to do is give them advance warning so they get out of dodge. And yes, there's a risk that he can only shift the Snarl once, but I doubt that's going to stop him.
Redcloak is following the plan because he cares for goblinfolk, his goal in life is not to see the completion of the plan, his goal in life is to make a better world for goblinkind, the plan is the means he has been given to achieve that, and he has put his all into it.
If his goal is completed and he lives, he will retire a hero, he will rule his people (because he is a ruler, already at that) and then he will die a legend.
If he doesn't survive the completion of his goal, he will skip the first two steps and die a legend anyway.
Redcloak said that even if the Snarl destroyed the world and all its inhabitants and erased their souls (Redcloak and his brother own sould included), he would still consider that a win, since that would allow the Dark One to take part in the creation of the next world and ensure that goblins were better treated in that new world...which tells us that Redcloak doesn't care **** about individual goblins, only about the goblin race as an abstract concept.
Truth to be told, if Redcloak's objetives were the ones he told his brother before meeting Xykon during the Start Of Darkness, he could retire already: The goblins have their own nation, and can compete with the other races on an equal footing, but he's still pursuing his very-likely-to-backfire-and-destroy-all-goblin-souls plan, so I think he has raised the stakes and won't settle for anything less than world domination.
I Redcloak wins...a goblin empire will enslave humans, elves and dwarves; even if the gods divide the world evenly among goblins and non-goblins the fast breeding rate of goblins will mean they will soon need the other half, and since the Dark One will hold a gun against the other god's heads, they will have to allow the goblins to conquer the world.
But that will never happen: At least Thor and the Twelve Animal gods know about the gates, the gods can perfectly seal the gates, the problem being that they would have to destroy the world to do it, so they are waiting, expecting their mortal minions to solve the problem again, but, if Redcloak is ever close to win, I think they will destroy the world rather than allowing the Dark One to seize the gates.
Last edited by Clistenes : 11-02-2012 at 09:16 PM.
Let's assume that Redcloak's Plan goes off without a hitch. He works with Xykon to control one of the gates, he successfully backstabs Xykon, and the Dark One uses the Snarl to blackmail the gods without having the Snarl wipe out the world. So Redcloak wins. And he's still alive at the end of it.
Then what? What does Redcloak do then? His entire life from when he was just an angry grieving kid who picked up the red cloak has revolved around the Plan. Redcloak has let the Plan define him; he's nothing more than an agent through which the Plan happens. And then suddenly that's gone and he's left an empty husk who sacrificed everything for the sake of the Plan. If Redcloak wins and lives, he'll be living in the world of his dreams. But even as the High Priest of the Dark One, it'll be a world with nothing of importance for him. He won't have anyone or anything to live for, not anymore. How much would Redcloak even value his own life once the one thing that he let define and give meaning to his entire existence is gone?
And if Redcloak loses, or if the Plan fails but sociopolitical changes end up giving the world the same result, he has the same problem.
What does he do? I say a party with some cute goblin girls and drinks served in cup made from Xykon's skull. Like a Boss.
ALL HAIL REDCLOAK!
and in all honestly - Redcloak said it himself, he is the guy who make trains run on time, he would probably found himself managing the administration on the whole new Goblin Empire, conquering lands where humans still opress goblins and murdering PCs. Or start conquering...erm, liberating other dimensions, where goblins are still opressed.
Truth to be told, if Redcloak's objetives were the one he told his brother before meeting Xykon during the Start Of Darkness, he could retire already: The goblins have their own nation, and can compete with the other races on an equal footing, but he's still pursuing his very-likely-to-backfire-and-destroy-all-goblin-souls plan, so I think he has raised the stakes and won't settle for nothing less than world domination.
At this moment, Redcloak has no retirement option, not with pissed Xykon lurking around. If Xykon learned that Redcloak wants to quit, he would slaughter him and all other goblinoids. Remember, Redcloak was perfectly willing to stall the plan until Xykon got mad, banned him from regenerating his lost eye and threatened to take the other one. At this moment, Redcloak can only go on, or at least pretend to do so. If somebody destroyed Xykon for good, I think Redcloak would prefer to rule Gobbotopia and wouldn't search for another mad arcane caster to complete the Ritual with.
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All thanks to half-halfling for the avatar.
I don't think that Snarl-ritual is such an ultimate weapon. The various groups of gods reside on various planes, right?(otherwise they would have been destroyed along with the Eastern pantheon) So if the Dark One actually releases the Snarl on one of them, the best scenario he can hope for is that one pantheon would be destroyed. It is very uncertain that he will be able to move the gate again (presumably, the gate would be the very first thing the Snarl devours once released). And the Dark One can not stand against the two remaining pantheons all alone. And that doesn't include the chance that the Snarl is dead, harmless, ritual won't work in that way etc.
So, the Snarl would be tremendously useful in any negotiations about improving life of goblinoids, but not in a direct war. After all, even Redcloak himself said the Dark One only plans to blackmail the other gods, not to attack them.
It's not the ritual that's the ultimate weapon. It's the fear of someone using it. Yeah, maybe he could only destroy pantheon, but do you think any of the gods will risk it being their pantheon that's destroyed?
It's not the ritual that's the ultimate weapon. It's the fear of someone using it. Yeah, maybe he could only destroy pantheon, but do you think any of the gods will risk it being their pantheon that's destroyed?
That is the pesky business about it. Let's assume that the other gods can destroy the gate without much trouble (someone like Thor could do it in a few moments, I'm sure). But doing so would probably destroy the entire mortal world, so the gods will do it only when facing a worse alternative.
And now the Dark One's point of view. If he hesitates with releasing the Snarl, he has to count that gods would rather let the world be unmade than risk killing one pantheon . If he releases him immediately, though, he may wipe out one third of his enemies, but then the rest of them would smash him hard (surely even Tiamat or Loki wouldn't side with a deicidal bastard). So it's best for him not to be too greedy and propose a fine compromise instead - one that would assure equity, but not superiority of the goblinoids with the player races. After that deal is made, neither side will go back (the Dark One grants Law domain, he should be Lawful) the ritual would be unnecessary and some measures against his use can be taken.
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At this moment, Redcloak has no retirement option, not with pissed Xykon lurking around. If Xykon learned that Redcloak wants to quit, he would slaughter him and all other goblinoids. Remember, Redcloak was perfectly willing to stall the plan until Xykon got mad, banned him from regenerating his lost eye and threatened to take the other one. At this moment, Redcloak can only go on, or at least pretend to do so. If somebody destroyed Xykon for good, I think Redcloak would prefer to rule Gobbotopia and wouldn't search for another mad arcane caster to complete the Ritual with.
I think Redcloak is already starting to prepare a "kill Xykon" contingency plan, just in case, and that's the reason he has replaced the philactery; if the heroes managed to destroy Xykon's body again, he would probably just destroy the thing and return to Gopotopia to search a loyal arcane caster, or maybe create one (hunting an arcane caster and turning it into an undead of a level low enough he could control it).
On the other hand, Redcloak isn't really acting rationally; he wants to justify past sacrifices, can't afford to look back and question his past decisions or he would have to acknowledge that he has been a bastard...so he may have convinced himself that the Xykon Plan is the only option, and isn't considering the option of abandoning it for a more traditional approach.
Also, the Dark One seems to wish Redcloak to keep the plan going and to support his intention to use Xykon (or he would have told him otherwise when he sent him a message), and also, he probably wouldn´t be able to beat the Order of the Stick without Xykon, so maybe Redcloak hasn't any other option left now; he's trapped between Xykon and the Dark One, and he HAS to keep going.
Last edited by Clistenes : 11-03-2012 at 12:25 PM.
Redcloak never planned with retirement. Read SoD, it's pretty clear.
Recloak wants to finish the plan and see what comes then. He is even willing to risk his life and even his soul in attempting it.
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Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!
One big thing that recently occured to me: hasn't Redcloack already won? (at least sort of?)
The new city of Gobtopia is a metropolis run by goblins, with a port, infrastructure, and (I'm presuming) some decent farm or ranch land that city uses for food. It has enemies, but also allies. It is, at least on some level, exactly what Redcloack wanted: an even chance.
It would seem that he may very well have achieved his goal, and is still apparently focused on the quest he's spent essentially his entire life on.
On a slightly different note, I'm still not convinced that the whole gate-buiness we learned about via Vision Quest (crayon drawing) is on the level. It would seem a rather appropriate twist if the Dark One wasn't being entirely truthful with Redcloak, and the "history of the world" is really "history-as-viewed-by goblins". As several other poster have pointed out, Redcloak's self-righteousness is at least as powerful a motivator as greed.
While it would certainly be an aversion of the standard-fantasy stereotypes, it would seem somewhat anti-climactic to have the whole story end with: "and then the goblin-god became all powerful and everyone lived happily ever after".
As I mentioned above, the goblins now have their city and land, and apparently the Dark One isn't content with this palty amount of power.
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"A man is known by the company he organizes." -Ambrose Bierce
My personal hope lies within "Snarl is actually not a terrible, reality devouring abomination (anymore), despite what everybody seems to believe in" territory.
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Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?
