Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

[Tvtyrant]

Originally Posted by Coidzor

Be that as may be, as far as the consequences of magic for society, it sure beats the pants off of settings that don't consider the role of magic and tack it on as an after thought.

Which is a point that always seems to get lost in the hustle and bustle of the threads.

As a thought exercise I tend to agree, but I don't think I would want to play a game in it. Too little to do as individuals, too much power in the hands of the government. As Doctor Wily says "they follow the man who turns the wheels."

[Kelb_Panthera]

To be perfectly honest, TvTyrant, you've hit the nail on the head for the other thing that prevents the tippyverse, aside from DM fiat.

In-universe there will be parties both for and against the ideas that lead down that road. As long as they remain in a more or less stable equilibrium the tippyverse can't come to pass.

If history has taught me anything, however, it's this; you can't stop progress. In any given world, the tippyverse will happen eventually. It may or may not stand forever (see the roman empire and some if its more advanced tech) but it will form eventually.

This, of course, brings up the problem of medieval stasis that inexplicably grips most campaign worlds, but that's a whole different can of worms.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Tvtyrant

As a thought exercise I tend to agree, but I don't think I would want to play a game in it. Too little to do as individuals, too much power in the hands of the government. As Doctor Wily says "they follow the man who turns the wheels."

I don't know. How much or how little fun you could have in the tippyverse depends on where in the tippyverse timeline you are, and whether or not political intrigue appeals to you.

At no point does the tippyverse actually lead to everyone being equal and happy. Society will always stratify and someone will always be jockying for the top position. Playing one of those jockeys could be alot of fun if you're into that sort of thing.

[toapat]

Originally Posted by Coidzor

Knowing what a teleportation circle does, knowing that they can permanently put it into place, and knowing that transportation of goods is something that's tricky because of all of the monsters he's made good money off of to finance his rise to power definitely makes him rigid and unable to see a patently obvious application of his capabilities.

Right. If the pursuit of knowledge meeting any kind of success led to stagnation then our scientific advance would have dead-ended by now.

Further, you've not actually bothered to show how it *can't* be done by a wizard, you've just continually asserted it when you haven't outright contradicted yourself by going on about how wizards always have armies and want to take things over with said armies and that's the first step on the road to the tippyverse.

1: Knowing what something is (a Circle of Teleportation), and Knowing the practical applications of that thing (uniting Society via trade and dropping troops where you need them), are entirely different. take Electricity. a gag for decades. now we talk using it, generate significant ammounts of light, and refridgerate raw meat with it.

Wizards would use teleportation circle as though we use cars. So mundane to them that they dont realize how it could be applied.

2: Technological Event Horizons are not common. The Transistor would have been the closest we have had to one in recent times, but we discovered it before we hit the wall (a very distant wall at that) because we had been screwing around for a while with semi-conductors. Perhaps the best example would be Gunpowder, the first thing used to create complex machines. naming a singularity itself is rather difficult, because we are, as a result to living before their occurance, blind to them.

3: A Wizard has options. You cant cut so much out of a wizard's flexibility that their only option is Invent ODSTs. A Sorcerer can very well though have that problem, and be forced to adapt.

[tuggyne]

Originally Posted by toapat

1: Knowing what something is (a Circle of Teleportation), and Knowing the practical applications of that thing (uniting Society via trade and dropping troops where you need them), are entirely different. take Electricity. a gag for decades. now we talk using it, generate significant ammounts of light, and refridgerate raw meat with it.

Wizards would use teleportation circle as though we use cars. So mundane to them that they dont realize how it could be applied.

2: Technological Event Horizons are not common. The Transistor would have been the closest we have had to one in recent times, but we discovered it before we hit the wall (a very distant wall at that) because we had been screwing around for a while with semi-conductors. Perhaps the best example would be Gunpowder, the first thing used to create complex machines. naming a singularity itself is rather difficult, because we are, as a result to living before their occurance, blind to them.

You're honestly arguing against yourself here. Each of your examples is actually a case where, initially, the full implications were not understood, until smart people, motivated by curiosity, financial need, or the press of war, figured out new applications for them.

Wizards are smart, generally curious, can certainly desire money, and are often requested to serve a nation's military. Furthermore, they are specifically indicated to be researching spells a great deal of the time. How then are you so certain that they could never ever develop this particular application of certain spells?

To your specific example of cars, I'd note that certain applications of cars (e.g., mechanized infantry) were discovered several decades after the technology was hammered out to the point of usability.

Also I would argue that the first complex machines were powered by either muscles or water, depending on exact definition of "complex", with steam and then wind coming later; the first steam engine was developed by ancient Greeks around 100 BC, if memory serves.

[The Random NPC]

Originally Posted by tuggyne

Also I would argue that the first complex machines were powered by either muscles or water, depending on exact definition of "complex", with steam and then wind coming later; the first steam engine was developed by ancient Greeks around 100 BC, if memory serves.

I think it was the Chinese, and I think it was supposed to be a war machine. I'm not sure, but either way, the "car" was invented centuries before it was feasible.

[toapat]

Originally Posted by The Random NPC

I think it was the Chinese, and I think it was supposed to be a war machine. I'm not sure, but either way, the "car" was invented centuries before it was feasible.

technically the car a mechanical system.

The gun was used because it was the first common chemical machine

the (de)compression chamber

a simple steam turbine was blueprinted in egypt, but the steam engine wouldnt see development for millennia because of "lack of forseeable applications"

[ThiagoMartell]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

In any given world, the tippyverse will happen eventually.

I strongly disagree with this.
The TV is one way magic can be used reliably to improve everyone's lives. It is not the only way to do so.
Will magitech happen, given time? Most probably, yes. Will the TV happen? Only if you want it to.

[Arcanist]

Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell

I strongly disagree with this.
The TV is one way magic can be used reliably to improve everyone's lives. It is not the only way to do so.
Will magitech happen, given time? Most probably, yes. Will the TV happen? Only if you want it to.

AND THUS THE CYCLE CONTINUES!

(See Mass Effect 3 "Reject" ending)

[Dusk Eclipse]

To be honest I think Eberron's take on Magic and it's consequences on everyday life seems more plausible if a bit more limited; but I think that is because most high level casters aren't humanoid (baring Loli-pope inside flamekeep) or aren't even in Khorvaire (I know there is a level 17th Telepath in the Tashalastora monastery, not to mention the few giants that still live on Xen'drik) or are Dragons...

Given time and more high level casters I think Eberron could be on it's way to become some sort of Tippyverse.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell

I strongly disagree with this.
The TV is one way magic can be used reliably to improve everyone's lives. It is not the only way to do so.
Will magitech happen, given time? Most probably, yes. Will the TV happen? Only if you want it to.

I suspect your disagreement lies in a stricter interpretation of the word "tippyverse" than I intended.

What I was saying there is that, given enough time, those magicks will be put to those applications.

Sooner or later somebody will make the connection between TP circles and trade economy.

Sooner or later someone will realize that a permanent wall of fire is a limitless source of energy that can be harnessed, probably through steam.

Sooner or later someone will realize that a food & water trap can effectively end hunger for that city.

And so on and so forth.

You're correct in that EmperorTippy's vision of a post-scarcity utopia where everyone lives in their own private demiplane in perfect happiness forever is only one possible outcome of these advancements; a rather unlikely one at that, IMO.

[Suddo]

There are levels of Tippyverse here are some basic popular concepts:

Permanent Teleportation Circles

Spoiler

Teleportation Circle is pretty much one of the base line ideas of the Tippyverse. When you permanency one a teleportation circle you can quickly charge low rates to allow for merchants to travel between cities without fear of being attacked. The profit is easy enough to come by if you consider how many theoretical merchants are traveling and they usually have to higher a couple of body guards and then they have to waste time. Its quite a good idea.

Resetting Trap of Create Food and Water

Spoiler

Resetting Traps of Create Food And Water are a low level way to break everything. This is most easily done with a Artificier and as low as level five (maybe six). Basically you make it cast create food and water once every round (six seconds) creating enough food for 14400 people. This will be worth about 4320gp a day which can quickly refund any lost money, 14400 daily food, 43200 poor meals, poor meals are 1sp. Apply a trap of prestidigitation to make it taste amazing and charge 6gp instead of 3sp (3 good meals versus 3 poor meals) and you'll make 86400gp a day. This assumes you can sell all the product. You of course will have to hire a wait staff and buy a building but since you are making more money than 6th level wealth by level a day (a week if not using prestidigitation) you should be able to afford it.

Those are my two favorite. So all you need is 1 creative 6th-ish level Artificier and 1 3rd level divine scroll and you pretty much break the entire world in half.

Edit:
I'd like to throw in that magic resetting trap is enough to break the world and this happens at level 5 or 6 (I forget if Artificiers get Create Wondrous Item at level 5 or if they have to pick it up at 6). Yes Tele-Circles are really broken and will probably break the world faster but you know what by that time you have Wish so no one cares about Tele-Circles. The fun part about this is seeing at what point the world might break.

Edit: Edit: Wondrous Item can be taken at level 3 that means a 3rd level Artificier with a 3rd level scroll (5th level character to make) can break the world.

[Doug Lampert]

Originally Posted by Suddo

I'd like to throw in that magic resetting trap is enough to break the world and this happens at level 5 or 6 (I forget if Artificiers get Create Wondrous Item at level 5 or if they have to pick it up at 6). Yes Tele-Circles are really broken and will probably break the world faster but you know what by that time you have Wish so no one cares about Tele-Circles. The fun part about this is seeing at what point the world might break.

Actual casters can take Craft Wondrous at level 3. So a bog standard core only BtB cleric can do this at level 5.

[Suddo]

Originally Posted by Doug Lampert

Actual casters can take Craft Wondrous at level 3. So a bog standard core only BtB cleric can do this at level 5.

Oh wow its only level 3 I thought it was 5. That makes it a level 3 artificier with access to a 3rd level scroll (so 5th level character)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Suddo

There are levels of Tippyverse here are some basic popular concepts:

Permanent Teleportation Circles

Spoiler

Teleportation Circle is pretty much one of the base line ideas of the Tippyverse. When you permanency one a teleportation circle you can quickly charge low rates to allow for merchants to travel between cities without fear of being attacked. The profit is easy enough to come by if you consider how many theoretical merchants are traveling and they usually have to higher a couple of body guards and then they have to waste time. Its quite a good idea.

Resetting Trap of Create Food and Water

Spoiler

Resetting Traps of Create Food And Water are a low level way to break everything. This is most easily done with a Artificier and as low as level five (maybe six). Basically you make it cast create food and water once every round (six seconds) creating enough food for 14400 people. This will be worth about 4320gp a day which can quickly refund any lost money, 14400 daily food, 43200 poor meals, poor meals are 1sp. Apply a trap of prestidigitation to make it taste amazing and charge 6gp instead of 3sp (3 good meals versus 3 poor meals) and you'll make 86400gp a day. This assumes you can sell all the product. You of course will have to hire a wait staff and buy a building but since you are making more money than 6th level wealth by level a day (a week if not using prestidigitation) you should be able to afford it.

Those are my two favorite. So all you need is 1 creative 6th-ish level Artificier and 1 3rd level divine scroll and you pretty much break the entire world in half.

Edit:
I'd like to throw in that magic resetting trap is enough to break the world and this happens at level 5 or 6 (I forget if Artificiers get Create Wondrous Item at level 5 or if they have to pick it up at 6). Yes Tele-Circles are really broken and will probably break the world faster but you know what by that time you have Wish so no one cares about Tele-Circles. The fun part about this is seeing at what point the world might break.

Edit: Edit: Wondrous Item can be taken at level 3 that means a 3rd level Artificier with a 3rd level scroll (5th level character to make) can break the world.

Those numbers, on your food and water trap calculations, will only hold for a relatively short period. Once another party figures out how you're making such massive profits they'll emulate. Then you get into a price war, and before you know it the food those traps are making is being sold for close to production cost; next to nothing that is.

The same principle applies to the TP circles.

It still breaks the crap out of the game for a bit though. Things will balance out again unless you completely ignore economics.

Ignoring economics in D&D is usually a good idea, but this is one case where circumstances actually make it unfeasible.

[Emperor Tippy]

The basic, foundational, requirement of the "Tippyverse" is cheap, repeatable, instant, transportation between two locations without passing through the intervening area (i.e. teleportation).

Permanent Teleportation Circles are one of the best ways to do this but Automatic Resetting Teleportation (and Greater Teleportation) Traps also work.

If teleportation is possible then it will eventually be used to eliminate trade routes between major industrial centers (nothing else can compete with the cost, time, or security that teleportation offers). This will eliminate the ancillary infrastructure required to maintain those trade routes (ship construction, small towns spread along trade routes, etc); real life history bares this out.

Such teleportation also makes it very easy to move a military force a vast distance with no warning. It makes it impossible to defend a traditional nations borders. Military force will end up concentrated around critical infrastructure because the only way to defend a point is to have enough military force on that point, constantly, to stand off any conceivable attack. This concentration of force increases security in those areas and decreases it outside those areas. This means that civilians will move to those areas (creating cities).

Everything else in the "tippyverse" follows on from this basic foundation and is largely the result of solving the problems such a verse creates (such as the Create Food and Water traps solving the inability to secure farm land).

[WarKitty]

Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy

The basic, foundational, requirement of the "Tippyverse" is cheap, repeatable, instant, transportation between two locations without passing through the intervening area (i.e. teleportation).

Permanent Teleportation Circles are one of the best ways to do this but Automatic Resetting Teleportation (and Greater Teleportation) Traps also work.

If teleportation is possible then it will eventually be used to eliminate trade routes between major industrial centers (nothing else can compete with the cost, time, or security that teleportation offers). This will eliminate the ancillary infrastructure required to maintain those trade routes (ship construction, small towns spread along trade routes, etc); real life history bares this out.

Such teleportation also makes it very easy to move a military force a vast distance with no warning. It makes it impossible to defend a traditional nations borders. Military force will end up concentrated around critical infrastructure because the only way to defend a point is to have enough military force on that point, constantly, to stand off any conceivable attack. This concentration of force increases security in those areas and decreases it outside those areas. This means that civilians will move to those areas (creating cities).

Everything else in the "tippyverse" follows on from this basic foundation and is largely the result of solving the problems such a verse creates (such as the Create Food and Water traps solving the inability to secure farm land).

We sort of went over that a few posts back. The problem was I didn't realize that Tippyverse had such a specific definition, so the question I asked in the first post isn't one that's terribly relevant to what I'm trying to find out. I'm more interested in what the minimum level/availability of magic is where it starts having major effects such as to make society look nothing like anything we've seen.

If it's all built around one spell, or a small select set of spells, it's fairly easy to get around as a DM if you don't want it. I'm more trying to build a world that is plausibly affected by magic without being overwhelmed into unplayability by it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Originally Posted by WarKitty

We sort of went over that a few posts back. The problem was I didn't realize that Tippyverse had such a specific definition, so the question I asked in the first post isn't one that's terribly relevant to what I'm trying to find out. I'm more interested in what the minimum level/availability of magic is where it starts having major effects such as to make society look nothing like anything we've seen.

If it's all built around one spell, or a small select set of spells, it's fairly easy to get around as a DM if you don't want it. I'm more trying to build a world that is plausibly affected by magic without being overwhelmed into unplayability by it.

Well... look at all of the stuff in my guide about post-scarcity. You'll probably have to remove a LOT of those options...

[Emperor Tippy]

Originally Posted by WarKitty

We sort of went over that a few posts back. The problem was I didn't realize that Tippyverse had such a specific definition, so the question I asked in the first post isn't one that's terribly relevant to what I'm trying to find out. I'm more interested in what the minimum level/availability of magic is where it starts having major effects such as to make society look nothing like anything we've seen.

If it's all built around one spell, or a small select set of spells, it's fairly easy to get around as a DM if you don't want it. I'm more trying to build a world that is plausibly affected by magic without being overwhelmed into unplayability by it.

The tippyverse is not remotely unplayable. In point of fact it is one of the most playable D&D settings.

That being said, even the lowest levels and most basic magic can have a drastic effect on the world. Especially if you allow magic items (and especially traps).

[WarKitty]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

Well... look at all of the stuff in my guide about post-scarcity. You'll probably have to remove a LOT of those options...

I did actually. I'm not convinced that all the availability things work as you say. Especially if you don't assume that 9th level spells are easily findable and castable.

Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy

The tippyverse is not remotely unplayable. In point of fact it is one of the most playable D&D settings.

That being said, even the lowest levels and most basic magic can have a drastic effect on the world. Especially if you allow magic items (and especially traps).

It's...not particularly playable either at low levels or if you're not a caster. What I'm trying to do is a world where magic has an effect, without going "lol u suck peon" to every non-magical character in the world.

[tyckspoon]

Originally Posted by WarKitty

We sort of went over that a few posts back. The problem was I didn't realize that Tippyverse had such a specific definition, so the question I asked in the first post isn't one that's terribly relevant to what I'm trying to find out. I'm more interested in what the minimum level/availability of magic is where it starts having major effects such as to make society look nothing like anything we've seen.

The most basic one I can think of is a Create Water trap; set it up so you have a tank of water that automatically refills itself to a certain point and you have a reliable permanent supply of water. It doesn't have the "nobody ever has to do subsistence farming again" effect of widespread Create Food and Water, but it does make your farming much more reliable- you can continue to water and grow your crops even in absolute drought conditions. Your society is now functionally immune to famine and, absent some other catastrophic event, your population will grow. Spare people means greater economic potential, especially in trained/specialist fields that you can't normally spare hands to learn when a majority of your workforce are dirt-farmers. IIRC it also tends to lead to urbanization and the development of a non-land-ownership-based upper and middle-class..

So basically it's the reason why D&D cities actually exist in their Renaissance-esque state, despite the popular conception of much of the setting being stuck on dung-covered-peasants Dark Ages.

[Spuddles]

I've always wanted to run a tippyverse setting with a really strong metanarrative on tropes. If resetting traps of food can feed everyone? Why are there dirt farmers? Because the gods of the harvest demand dirt farming. Imagine everyone toiling in the fields all day, only to return to their hab block, eat their half ration of Party gruel, engage in a Party approved leisure activity, go to sleep, then return to the fields the next day.

The whole setting would be full of extremely pious people performing labors to venerate gods who don't have uses any more.

In a post scarcity world, everyone is laboring to ensure that their afterlife will be as good as possible.

Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy

The tippyverse is not remotely unplayable. In point of fact it is one of the most playable D&D settings.

That being said, even the lowest levels and most basic magic can have a drastic effect on the world. Especially if you allow magic items (and especially traps).

The point of lights setting is like a more coherent version of Gygax's Greyhawk. Citystates with powerful mages surrounded by monster-infested wilderness and autocratic fiefdoms ruled by petty tyrants.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by WarKitty

I did actually. I'm not convinced that all the availability things work as you say. Especially if you don't assume that 9th level spells are easily findable and castable.

You can still do a fair bit with lower level casting, as I think 3-4th level spells do most of Eberron's stuff with 5th level ones being the upper end for most purposes.

Originally Posted by WarKitty

It's...not particularly playable either at low levels or if you're not a caster. What I'm trying to do is a world where magic has an effect, without going "lol u suck peon" to every non-magical character in the world.

There's plenty of more traditional adventuring out in the wilds. Political intrigues don't operate solely on innate magical ability either. And there's all kinds of gladiatorial things in the more decadent ones.

I'm honestly not sure where you're going with this "lol u suck peon" thing, either or what you're really meaning. As has been said, caster superiority is based solely upon the classes, not the setting.

[Aegis013]

Originally Posted by WarKitty

It's...not particularly playable either at low levels or if you're not a caster. What I'm trying to do is a world where magic has an effect, without going "lol u suck peon" to every non-magical character in the world.

It's still definitely playable if you're not a caster. I use a city in a Tippyverse-esque setting for my campaign and even non-casters have a place to fit, and even shine. The group have said it's the best game and the most immersing setting they've played in.

Thank you Emperor Tippy for sharing your vision with us.

[WarKitty]

The easiest change to make might be to assume that magic traps *do* decay over time, at least with repeated use. The other interesting question I had was - would much of this be altered in a society where labor was cheap and plentiful? Especially a slave society. That might even provide a disincentive to developing more widespread technology, if you have a highly stratified society.

My worry in general is, if you have a highly magical society, what reason is there for anyone to ever learn a sword in the first place? You know that whatever you can do there's a construct that can do it better. I know there's issues at high levels, but it seems like once you get easily available magic creations there's little reason for anyone to train in the first place.

[toapat]

Originally Posted by WarKitty

I know there's issues at high levels, but it seems like once you get easily available magic creations there's little reason for anyone to train in the first place.

simple, the reason people still train in martial weapon combat. For fun.

the simple fact is, once you hit TV, its going to come to some point where someone figures out how to make some form of gunpowder. at that point its only some wild mass guessing and you have assault rifles.

[Gavinfoxx]

Originally Posted by WarKitty

I did actually. I'm not convinced that all the availability things work as you say. Especially if you don't assume that 9th level spells are easily findable and castable.

Which particular issues do you have? And most of the magic isn't close to 9th level... much of it can be done with a level 11 artificer or so...

[ThiagoMartell]

If you don't allow auto-resetting beneficial traps and use the DMG demographics, then there is no TV. If spellcasters charge per spell cast (as they should per RAW), there is no TV.
Eberron is a setting where magic is used daily in practical ways and remains viable for all characters. It uses even lower level demographics and restricts use of magic via the Dragonmarked Houses. Also, only spells from levels 1-3 are easily available.
I think Eberron does pretty much what you want, WarKitty.

[Gavinfoxx]

Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell

If you don't allow auto-resetting beneficial traps

I listed like five other ways to get eternal casting of spells from items in my post-scarcity guide... SOME of those are likely to exist!

[Telok]

Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell

If you don't allow auto-resetting beneficial traps and use the DMG demographics, then there is no TV. If spellcasters charge per spell cast (as they should per RAW), there is no TV.

You can build Star Wars style speeders with just Levitate, Gust of Wind, a chair, and a barrel or two. It will run you about 25,000 gp per speeder, carry around 200 lbs, and top out at around 55 mph. You can have someone make it for you at level 3.

It's not a big jump from a Decanter of Endless Water to a Bucket of Endless Barley/Carrots/Beef Chunks. The auto-traps are the cheapest way to do those things, but not the only way.

The DMG demographics also suggest that for a "metropolis" of 26,000 people there will be 4 wizards of 1d4+12 levels each. Plus twice that number of wizards of half those levels, and again twice the number of them at half of their levels, and so on until you get to level 1 wizards. Giving an "average" of one each 13th through 16th level wizards gives that a population of:
16th = 1
15th = 1
14th = 1
13th = 1
8th = 2
7th = 4
6th = 2
4th = 4
3rd = 12
2nd = 8
1st = 40

That's just wizards, there's going to be the same number of sorcerers too. If you look at clerics you'll find they get four of them with 1d6+12 levels, giving you a 50/50 chance of a level 17+ cleric. Remember that these are the numbers for a 26,000 population city, Moscow in the 15th century had a population in excess of 200,000 and ancient Rome had more than 450,000 (lowball estimate of only the Imperial City).

While a magic item room of Greater Teleport is going to run you 182,000 gp to buy before any cost reductions it's also available at level 13. A Tippyverse is absolutely doable with the rules as written in only the core books.

Edit: Ok, that room is 91,000 gp and 7280 xp to make. It will take 182 days, about six months, to build. Again this assumes no price reductions. You could make this sucker a wagon that teleported anywhere, perfectly, for that price. The real price of the room is probably going to be 1/4 or 1/5th of this because of reductions. Just going with size (no space limitation, reversed and you can't take it with you), a skill rank requirement (Kn:Arcana 5) and a class limiter (must be wizard) you can get it down to 54,600 gp to buy. Making it this way will cost 27,300 gp and 2184 xp. This is still just using a wizard with Craft Wonderous Item, we haven't even considered artificers with crafting feats yet.