Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan

[INoKnowNames]

Originally Posted by leafman

^ You forgot one. Early in their stories they both would transform into very powerful and mostly uncontrollable beasts, then went through a period where they supressed the beast, and later gained mastery of the beast form, attaining their ultimate power*.

*Goku became a Super Saiyan Oozaru and with Pan's help gained control over the Oozaru to become a SS4 in Dragonball GT

I left that out because I, amoung many people, rather dislike a lot of what GT did, and with the latest things from japan, Gt's been retconned anyway.

[leafman]

Well, ignoring GT, the first and second parts remain true. Goku's suppression of the the Oozaru was having his tail permanently removed, where Naruto's was a more temporary deal.

[INoKnowNames]

Originally Posted by leafman

Well, ignoring GT, the first and second parts remain true. Goku's suppression of the the Oozaru was having his tail permanently removed, where Naruto's was a more temporary deal.

You can probably mention how during the struggles involved then they still gained their ultimate power, but my point still stands, and that is that the Orange Jumpsuit is completely excusable. It has an in story justifcation (pre time skip merely for attention, post time skip Red Mom + Yellow Dad = Orange Son), it has a mechanical justification (a real ninja doesn't have to look the part; if he is caught breaking in, he's already lost; also Transformation Jutsu), and it has a meta justification (Goku Expy).

So... who's taking bets for the upcoming fight results?

[Drolyt]

Originally Posted by Giegue

Yeah, and Naruto is hardly the worst culprit when it comes to cloths not fit for stealth. I mean, look at Madara. Nothing says "stealthy" like flashy red bad guy armor of doom. I mean, even D&D tells you that it's a ***** to sneak in armor, and I remember reading somewhere that Madara's armor is in fact metal. You try sneaking in full, metal, samurai-style armor and NOT being heard and thus getting noticed. Madara sneaking would be the D&D equivalent of trying to use the hide and move silently skills in full plate. Yeah.

Madara doesn't need to sneak. To be serious though, most Naruto "ninjas" are ninjas in name only. I mean, some of them are required to do ninja like missions, but remember that Madara was from before the time of the hidden villages. Madara and the Uchiha were not ninjas for hire, but warriors, so he wears warrior armor.

In an unrelated note, why is is that Madara, Itachi, and Sasuke all have related Mengekyo's but Kakashi/Obito's is completely different?

[AtlanteanTroll]

GT can't be officially retconned because it was never canon anyway.

[Madara]

Originally Posted by Drolyt

Madara doesn't need to sneak. To be serious though, most Naruto "ninjas" are ninjas in name only. I mean, some of them are required to do ninja like missions, but remember that Madara was from before the time of the hidden villages. Madara and the Uchiha were not ninjas for hire, but warriors, so he wears warrior armor.

In an unrelated note, why is is that Madara, Itachi, and Sasuke all have related Mengekyo's but Kakashi/Obito's is completely different?

Shisui also had a different Mangekyo. Its likely that there are a few different eyes, and Itachi/Sasuke and Madara happen to have the same types. I'm trying to think of another Bloodline ability to compare it to....Dust Release? They both have the same moves, but use different geometrical shapes.

The official answer hasn't been given, and I doubt it will be.

[Suichimo]

The stereotypical all black wearing ninja isn't even historically accurate. It came about because of the theater. The guys backstage would dress in black so they could move around and do their job without being noticed, some producer got the brilliant idea to include them in the story like that and today's concept of the ninja was born. Hilariously enough, Naruto's style of ninja is likely more historically accurate. You stand out running around in black body suits, but Naruto and others are basically in their streets all day. They look like the general population. That is how you blend in.

As for the Goku thing, obviously. Dragon Ball Z is such a tremendous influence on Shonen. Oda, IIRC, has stated that Goku was a direct influence for Luffy and Bleach is just Yu Yu Hakusho with swords which is just Dragon Ball Z in high school. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a modern shonen which ISN'T influenced by Dragon Ball Z in one way or another.

[leafman]

The problem I have with the way Naruto ninja dress is that while they wear some civilian clothes they still wear the ninja shoes, bandages/wraps and their forehead protectors. The shoes and bandages might not get much notice, but the headband advertising which hidden village they're from is a dead giveaway.

[LaZodiac]

Originally Posted by Drolyt

Madara doesn't need to sneak. To be serious though, most Naruto "ninjas" are ninjas in name only. I mean, some of them are required to do ninja like missions, but remember that Madara was from before the time of the hidden villages. Madara and the Uchiha were not ninjas for hire, but warriors, so he wears warrior armor.

In an unrelated note, why is is that Madara, Itachi, and Sasuke all have related Mengekyo's but Kakashi/Obito's is completely different?

My understanding is that there are various branches of the Uchiha family and each branch has a different eye power. The left eye does one power, the right eye does another, and together they do a third power.

Left Eye for Itachi and Sasuke is Amaterasu, Right Eye is Tsukyomi, and together is Susanoo.

Left Eye for...blah, is Izanami, and Right Eye is Izanagi. I shudder to think what them together is.

Left Eye for Kakashi is "Kamui on things", Right Eye for Obito is "Kamui on self". Together they are....something that will unseal the ten tailed beast, apparently?

Just a theory I've worked out. I imagine other people in the Uchiha clan would have different powers.

[Morph Bark]

Originally Posted by INoKnowNames

I said that!

It was in fact one of the few things you didn't say, well at least not in general, other than the name.

Originally Posted by Madara

Shisui also had a different Mangekyo. Its likely that there are a few different eyes, and Itachi/Sasuke and Madara happen to have the same types. I'm trying to think of another Bloodline ability to compare it to....Dust Release? They both have the same moves, but use different geometrical shapes.

The official answer hasn't been given, and I doubt it will be.

I had to check the Naruto wiki again to be sure, as originally I thought Shisui didn't have a Mangekyou and his Kotoamatsukami was merely the result of genius invention using the normal Sharingan. But if it was a result of Mangekyou, that means Danzo was actually capable of using the Mangekyou Sharingan? Dayum.

[Socratov]

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

It was in fact one of the few things you didn't say, well at least not in general, other than the name.



I had to check the Naruto wiki again to be sure, as originally I thought Shisui didn't have a Mangekyou and his Kotoamatsukami was merely the result of genius invention using the normal Sharingan. But if it was a result of Mangekyou, that means Danzo was actually capable of using the Mangekyou Sharingan? Dayum.

Yes Shisui's kotoamatsukami is a mangekyo technique specific to Shisui. it was the other strongest genjutsu since it could actually domnate a person, though had a recharge time of 10 years (I think?). his Mangekyo were basically Obito's, but with 4 pins instead of 3. i'd buy the different family branches explanation, just like the Hyuuga's diffferent branches have slightly different techniques.

[Madara]

Originally Posted by Socratov

Yes Shisui's kotoamatsukami is a mangekyo technique specific to Shisui. it was the other strongest genjutsu since it could actually domnate a person, though had a recharge time of 10 years (I think?). his Mangekyo were basically Obito's, but with 4 pins instead of 3. i'd buy the different family branches explanation, just like the Hyuuga's diffferent branches have slightly different techniques.

Its seems to make sense. Zodiac, you didn't mention Madara.

Also, it makes even more sense because Itachi and Sasuke's father was supposedly the leader, making him likely from a more important branch of Uchiha, perhaps the branch that gained importance from having Madara in their part of the family...

[Socratov]

Well, we don;t know the full capabilities of Madara, but regarding him having control over susanoo (and a beefed up version of him at that) I'd put him in with itachi and Sasuke. The diffference between madara, itachi and sasuke is that madara has boosted susanoo, itachi has boosted tsukyomi and sasuke has boosted amaterasy (his blaze release), even though they would all have same-ish capabilities. The importaince of switching eachother's eyes and having hashirama's cells is as of yet unknown (except for awakening the rinnegan).

[INoKnowNames]

I missed it when the Sharingan was just "I can see everything, black flames, ultimate genjutsu, and flaming mobile suit".

In other news from the Fairy Tail Thread:

still tactical genius beats raw power any time (except maybe against dragonslayers who are all hyped up, they use powerhax).

Its actualy depressing how rarely that last part is true in the top manga.

Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell

Naruto actually does it too, the only problem is that the only actual genius is Shikamaru. Yeah, they say other people are geniuses, but the only actual one is Shikamaru.

What do you guys think? I'd say just because Shikamaru is the only rookie confirmed to have a top iq doesn't mean others haven't been using Tactical Genius... Naruto blowing off Tobito's mask was ****ing amazing and more than just brute force.

[darksolitaire]

Kakashi is supposed to be around as intelligent as Shikamaru, Kakashi has just more physical approach to combat while Shikamaru is hanging back and analyzing. Both Sasuke and Itachi were hailed as prodigies, but this is more in reference to their abilities then their actual intelligence.

[ThiagoMartell]

My point is that technically there are many characters that are tactical geniuses (Kakashi and Shikamaru's father, for example) but only Shikamaru ends up doing it because it's his shtick.

[Drolyt]

Originally Posted by Madara

Shisui also had a different Mangekyo. Its likely that there are a few different eyes, and Itachi/Sasuke and Madara happen to have the same types. I'm trying to think of another Bloodline ability to compare it to....Dust Release? They both have the same moves, but use different geometrical shapes.

The official answer hasn't been given, and I doubt it will be.

I'm fine with the different Uchiha have different eyes, and I also see why Itachi/Sasuke and Kakashi/Obito share abilities, what I'm not getting (I should have made this more clear) is why Itachi/Sasuke share abilities with Madara.

[INoKnowNames]

Originally Posted by Drolyt

I'm fine with the different Uchiha have different eyes, and I also see why Itachi/Sasuke and Kakashi/Obito share abilities, what I'm not getting (I should have made this more clear) is why Itachi/Sasuke share abilities with Madara.

It's only a matter of time until Madara reveals that he knows All Uchiha eye abilities, and pulls off his own Kamui.

[LaZodiac]

Originally Posted by Drolyt

I'm fine with the different Uchiha have different eyes, and I also see why Itachi/Sasuke and Kakashi/Obito share abilities, what I'm not getting (I should have made this more clear) is why Itachi/Sasuke share abilities with Madara.

Easy. Sasuke and Itachi are direct descendents of Madara. It's like how, if Obito has a child, and that child had a child, and that child had a child, that last child would probably have Kamui.

[Morph Bark]

Has Madara shown Amaterasu or Tsukiyomi for that matter? Well, I suppose we can infer him (and/or Obito) to have Tsukiyomi for the Moon's Eye Plan, but not Amaterasu.

Could be that Itachi and Sasuke are part of the main family line (their father was clan head, iirc) and Obito and Shisui were cousins or cousins of cousins or even further away, some somewhat-related branch of the family who underwent a mutation at some point.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Originally Posted by LaZodiac

Easy. Sasuke and Itachi are direct descendents of Madara. It's like how, if Obito has a child, and that child had a child, and that child had a child, that last child would probably have Kamui.

Considering Fugaku was the Clan head, it is pretty safe to assume this ^ is correct.

Edit: Isn't Susano's flame covering made out of Amaterasu Fire?

[LaZodiac]

Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse

Considering Fugaku was the Clan head, it is pretty safe to assume this ^ is correct.

Edit: Isn't Susano's flame covering made out of Amaterasu Fire?

Yha, I believe so.

[Traab]

Originally Posted by LaZodiac

Yha, I believe so.

I thought sasuke managed to figure out how to infuse susanoo with amaterasu fire during the 5 kage battle. It wasnt an automatic thing. But I could easily be wrong. And InOknownames, I agree, though i go back further, I liked it when the sharigan was able to copy and predict and be used for visual genjutsus. That alone was overpowered beyond belief. Give a standard jounin those abilities, and he would likely jump to elite jounin levels instantly, maybe higher. The ONLY weakness was the whole rock lee/sasuke spar. "It doesnt matter if your eyes can see it, if your body isnt fast enough to react to it."

And that just hands the entire secret on a silver fricking platter. An uchiha should concentrate on three main areas, physical speed, chakra supply, and stamina. Jutsus are blindingly easy to learn, so it doesnt take much effort to build up a solid library of techniques, you are deadly in physical combat even without a solid style simply because if you are fast enough, you can see everything happen in slow motion and easily block dodge or counter it. So taijutsu isnt as important an area to focus on, you dont need gai levels of strength because it doesnt take that much effort to stab someone in the face. You need the chakra supply to keep your sharingan active and fling out techniques, you need the stamina to keep fighting, and you need the speed to keep up with what your eyes tell you. Master those skills and you too can be itachi.

[Morph Bark]

Amaterasu fire on Susanoo isn't a normal thing. Sasuke has a technique that does make Amaterasu flames cover Susanoo's ribcage, but that's a seperate addition. Otherwise all Susanoos would be black, rather than yellow-red (Itachi) or purple (Sasuke) or whatever (Madara).

[Dusk Eclipse]

So despite his lunacy Sasuke still can develop his own techniques.. that's good (remember he could only copy the Lotus technique up until the Shadow leaf thingy and then improvise the Shishi rendan, never mind he expanded the Chidori into the Chidori current and the needles.)

Madara having Amaterasu is mostly a given since the Mangekyou's powers originally were Amaterasu an Tsukiyomi so it would be weird that the first Mengekyou wielder didn't have one of it's most famous techniques.

[INoKnowNames]

Originally Posted by Traab

Master those skills and you too can be itachi.

.... someone do one of those "Look atyou, now back to me, sadly you're not me, but you -can- be." things. Right now.

Also, I actually wouldn't be too opposed to Sasuke and Itachi's family line being dirrectly descended from Madara's line. It seems... kinda natural, actually.

And yeah, I thought Susanoo was Amaterasu shapped by the same level of skill that would have made Tsukuyomi. Hence it requiring both of them known.

[Suichimo]

Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse

So despite his lunacy Sasuke still can develop his own techniques.. that's good (remember he could only copy the Lotus technique up until the Shadow leaf thingy and then improvise the Shishi rendan, never mind he expanded the Chidori into the Chidori current and the needles.)

Madara having Amaterasu is mostly a given since the Mangekyou's powers originally were Amaterasu an Tsukiyomi so it would be weird that the first Mengekyou wielder didn't have one of it's most famous techniques.

Seems like most ninja only develop a few actual techniques themselves. Sasuke, as you said, had the Shishi Rendan and his expansion of the Chidori. Kakashi had the Chidori. Minato had the Flying Thundergod and Rasengan. Naruto has the Rasengan variants and Sexy no Jutsu and its variants.

Originally Posted by INoKnowNames

.... someone do one of those "Look atyou, now back to me, sadly you're not me, but you -can- be." things. Right now.

Also, I actually wouldn't be too opposed to Sasuke and Itachi's family line being dirrectly descended from Madara's line. It seems... kinda natural, actually.

And yeah, I thought Susanoo was Amaterasu shapped by the same level of skill that would have made Tsukuyomi. Hence it requiring both of them known.

Was Sasuke ever confirmed to have Tsukuyomi? I know he beat Itachi's, but I thought he simply overpowered it.

[INoKnowNames]

Originally Posted by Suichimo

Seems like most ninja only develop a few actual techniques themselves. Sasuke, as you said, had the Shishi Rendan and his expansion of the Chidori. Kakashi had the Chidori. Minato had the Flying Thundergod and Rasengan. Naruto has the Rasengan variants and Sexy no Jutsu and its variants.

Actually, the Rasengan is now Naruto's trade mark, since he's pefected it with Nature Chakra, and then developed the Rasenshuriken. The Rasengan was considered incomplete by Yondaime without Nature Chakra.

Originally Posted by Suichimo

Was Sasuke ever confirmed to have Tsukuyomi? I know he beat Itachi's, but I thought he simply overpowered it.

He used it against Danzo, actually.

Also,

"Hello, ladies.

Look at your ninja, now back to me. Now back at your ninja, now back to me.

Sadly, he isn't me. But if he kills his best friend, takes his brother's eyes, and absorbs 1st Hokage Cells, he could seem like me.

Look down, back up. Where are you? You're in a world full of Ninjas forever fighting and never gaining peace.

What's that in your eyes, back to me. I gave it to you, it's a Sharingan.
Look again, your Sharingan are now Rinnegan.

Anything is possible when you're Madara Uchiha.

I'm on a Wood Dragon."

[Dusk Eclipse]

Originally Posted by INoKnowNames

Actually, the Rasengan is now Naruto's trade mark, since he's pefected it with Nature Chakra, and then developed the Rasenshuriken. The Rasengan was considered incomplete by Yondaime without Nature Chakra.



He used it against Danzo, actually.

Also,

"Hello, ladies.

Look at your ninja, now back to me. Now back at your ninja, now back to me.

Sadly, he isn't me. But if he kills his best friend, takes his brother's eyes, and absorbs 1st Hokage Cells, he could seem like me.

Look down, back up. Where are you? You're in a world full of Ninjas forever fighting and never gaining peace.

What's that in your eyes, back to me. I gave it to you, it's a Sharingan.
Look again, your Sharingan are now Rinnegan.

Anything is possible when you're Madara Uchiha.

I'm on a Wood Dragon."

..... damn you! That is simply too awesome to not quote or link in sig.... damn you.

[LaZodiac]

Originally Posted by INoKnowNames

Actually, the Rasengan is now Naruto's trade mark, since he's pefected it with Nature Chakra, and then developed the Rasenshuriken. The Rasengan was considered incomplete by Yondaime without Nature Chakra.



He used it against Danzo, actually.

Also,

"Hello, ladies.

Look at your ninja, now back to me. Now back at your ninja, now back to me.

Sadly, he isn't me. But if he kills his best friend, takes his brother's eyes, and absorbs 1st Hokage Cells, he could seem like me.

Look down, back up. Where are you? You're in a world full of Ninjas forever fighting and never gaining peace.

What's that in your eyes, back to me. I gave it to you, it's a Sharingan.
Look again, your Sharingan are now Rinnegan.

Anything is possible when you're Madara Uchiha.

I'm on a Wood Dragon."

*thunderus applause* Well played, good sir. Well played.