adieu, monsieur L. Armstrong

[Killer Angel]

Do you remember this thread?

Well, now it's official.

I think that soon, we'll have more revoked titles than approved winners...

[Morph Bark]

Whelp.

At least he can see he fought off testicle cancer.

[Kindablue]

Sacrebleu.

[Aedilred]

I still don't know what to make of it. The evidence against him seems weighty, but it hasn't been challenged or scrutinised in any meaningful way. It's difficult to come up with any conclusive opinion on a "no comment" case.

I can understand why Armstrong wouldn't want to challenge the decision even if innocent. That doesn't, of course, mean that he is.

In any case, I'm generally opposed to retrospective editing of the record books. In exceptional cases, sure, but when you start stripping out whole swathes of them they become worthless. Better I think to leave the records intact, but mark them as dishonest. That way, too, a sport that's been damaged in such a way can never forget the price of cheating. Erasing the records seems uncomfortably like cycling is trying to forget the long-term damage done by doping, rather than facing up to it.

[Killer Angel]

Originally Posted by Aedilred

In any case, I'm generally opposed to retrospective editing of the record books.

Pretty much. 2-3 years back? it's possible, but I wouldn't go further back in time...
In the years after WWII, a sort of epic, legendary and golden age of cycling, there wasn't the concept of "antidoping", and the use of drugs that removed the feeling of fatigue was almost common (altought not abused for various reasons) and confirmed in various interviews.
What should we do? cancel 20 years of historical classifications?

[Aedilred]

There does come a point where keeping records at all seems pretty pointless. Particularly when the records were set in direct competition - I just don't think it's really fair to disqualify a winning cheat and then credit the overall win to the highest-finishing honest competitor as if the cheats were never in the competition. They were, and their performance will have had an effect on everyone else. Better to leave it blank, although as you say if taken to its full logical extent it would basically erase all the meaningful records.

Even if done contemporaneously it still makes a mess of things. In F1 racing, for instance, the record for largest winning margin in the team constructor's championship was set by Ferrari in 2007. However, the only reason that record is so large is that their closest competitor, McLaren, was disqualified from the constructor's championship over an issue largely unrelated to their actual performance. In reality, where it mattered on the track, both championships that season were the most closely contested for years. But that's not what the record book suggests.

But in a few years' time, that'll probably be largely forgotten, because people will just look at the overall record and not investigate the circumstances. It creates a false impression of the history of the sport.

[Zdrak]

What a cheater. I bet he never went to the moon either.

sarcasm

[Asta Kask]

Originally Posted by Zdrak

What a cheater. I bet he never went to the moon either.

sarcasm

That was Louis Armstrong.

[Crow]

I've been saying it for years.

So many members of his team were mixed up in doping, and yet he was the best one of the lot...

Big surprise. [/sarcasm]

I don't think they should change the record books. But an asterisk is in order.

[Kindablue]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

That was Louis Armstrong.

I thought Louis was the one who sparkled every time he flexed his muscles.

[Yora]

Well, it is an open secret that all profesionals are doing the same. If this all is going to have any lasting impact, they now need to keep on getting after the next two or three high profile offenders. The number of people also accused in this investigation is huge, as is the number of high profile witnesses who talked. If you keep on pushing the issue, the whole house of card may finally come down and expose the system of fraud and drug abuse.
After all, the teams and the organizers are getting huge amounts of money from private sponsors and goverment subsidies, which keep on comming for as long as it seems a worthy investment. Which so far meant showing superior performances, but this seems to be an opportunity to change that to being trustworthy and honest. If you lose your funding when you get overwhelmed by acusations of cheating, but get more money by convincingly proving that there is no officially sanctioned or organized fraud, then things could look quite different very quickly.

[Traab]

Originally Posted by Kindablue

I thought Louis was the one who sparkled every time he flexed his muscles.

Thats ALEX Louis Armstrong

[Maelstrom]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

That was Louis Armstrong.

Er, Neil, you mean...Louis was a brass blower ;)

[Spiryt]

What the hell is with stripped titles or whatever anyway?

NFL players are getting suspended for like 10 matches or something, other dudes are getting year at worst...

[Totally Guy]

I hear the anti-doping agency is looking to take away those "golden record" music sales prizes next.

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by Aedilred

Even if done contemporaneously it still makes a mess of things. In F1 racing, for instance, the record for largest winning margin in the team constructor's championship was set by Ferrari in 2007. However, the only reason that record is so large is that their closest competitor, McLaren, was disqualified from the constructor's championship over an issue largely unrelated to their actual performance. In reality, where it mattered on the track, both championships that season were the most closely contested for years. But that's not what the record book suggests.

Yeah, industrial espionage, bribery, stealing of technical secrets and lying under oath have 'nothing' to do with race performance...

McLaren should have gotten season ban, not go to closely contest WDC with illegal car.

What I find saddest in reading comments on Lance's case are all 'unconvinced' people who never bothered to read coverage of this story, especially these who think he was pursued by foreigners (USADA is American) for decades (it was created in 2001 and started test in 2010...), or that Armstrong's teammates who he personally pushed into doping had any interest in testifying against him...

Especially these who claim he is not a cheat, when less bright details about his attempts to blackmail and court bully people came to light - yeah, someone who claims he will destroy your life with trials for speaking the truth isn't cheat, nope, especially now that we learned exactly how he dodged tests

[Aedilred]

Originally Posted by Trixie

Yeah, industrial espionage, bribery, stealing of technical secrets and lying under oath have 'nothing' to do with race performance...

The thing is, it didn't. There was never any evidence that any of the information acquired was used by McLaren in their car, nor that the espionage was sanctioned or even in the knowledge of the team authorities until well after the fact. The concerns were largely over whether any of the information had found its way into the 2008 car, not the one they were running while the business came to light.

I don't wish to condone the behaviour of McLaren (inasmuch as it was a collective offence) because the conduct of some individuals was disgraceful. Including Fernando Alonso, for that matter. However, the sanctions were completely politically motivated and excessive, rather than proportionate to the nature or extent of the offence.

Moreover, other teams involved, most notably Renault, who seem to have been in it up to their eyeballs, got away scot free.

I don't know about lying under oath but I don't recall anything about that, nor, since legal proceedings were dropped before anything came to trial, can't see where it could have occurred, nor can I find any reference to it. Max Mosley later retracted his allegation that Ron Dennis had lied to him privately. It's also the first I've heard of any allegations of bribery in relation to the espionage scandal.

What was also totally forgotten in all the furore was that Ferrari ran the first two races that season (which were crucial in clinching the drivers' title, and, had McLaren not been disqualified, possibly the constructors' as well) with a design that was specifically and deliberately illegal, and they kept all the points from that. But they're Ferrari, so they were allowed to get away with it.

But that's enough of that.

[Killer Angel]

Originally Posted by Crow

I don't think they should change the record books. But an asterisk is in order.

"Gotcha!"
Yeah, that would be a nice idea.

[Emperor Ing]

is winning the Tour De France even allowed?

[willpell]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

That was Louis Armstrong.

dies laughing

[Klose_the_Sith]

Cadel Evans has had his mum come out and testify that he's drug-free. So lets just give all the Tours to him

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by Aedilred

The thing is, it didn't. There was never any evidence that any of the information acquired was used by McLaren in their car, nor that the espionage was sanctioned or even in the knowledge of the team authorities until well after the fact. The concerns were largely over whether any of the information had found its way into the 2008 car, not the one they were running while the business came to light.

And just how do you propose it was 'proven' McLaren used any of the info? By putting gun to the head of everyone concerned and grilling them until they confess?

Same with Armstrong - we can't prove doping helped him one bit, but the case is clear - both broke rules they swore to upheld, both lied under oath, therefore, case is clear - immediate bans, not deliberating if their misdeeds helped them any. If they were so good they didn't needed them, gee, maybe they shouldn't have that. Do any less than ban and sport turns into farce, and F1 nearly did with McL coming that close to WDC and basically getting no punishment whatsoever, not even financial one, when in the past teams got multiple race bans for much less.

Oh, and also funny you state there is no proof McL used any of the info, when all team drivers were openly talking in emails how useful the info is, yeah, no proof here, they must have been taking about weather, maybe. Same with Martin Whitmarsh admitting number of parts might have been 'influenced' by Ferrari parts, begging to not ban 2008 car too as they will address all problematic parts ASAP, but I guess he didn't knew what he was talking about, too.

[Socratov]

Too bad. I mean, sure winning while cheating is not ok, but to be honest this whole anti doping circus is quite looking like the spanish inquisition.

Besides, I could take a lot of doping, and still not come in second to last in the tour, doping is not everything, if anything it gives a slight advantage, a minimal edge. The boundaries of the body don't just disappear when doping enter the body.

I for one would love to see a tour where everyone uses doping openly. then it's all about strength of body again (how much doping can your body handle/are you willing to endure since it screws up your body so hard).

The reason why I don't like Lance is not because he used doping, but by buying an allstarsteam, having then ride him to voctory and thus disabeling any competition threat.

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by Socratov

Besides, I could take a lot of doping, and still not come in second to last in the tour, doping is not everything, if anything it gives a slight advantage, a minimal edge. The boundaries of the body don't just disappear when doping enter the body.

Um, that is not true. Scott Mercier, US Olympic team cyclist, who was as good as Armstrong, but chose to quit sport instead of doping, claimed mere training of doped cyclists is impossibly hard for clean ones, and bursts of speed even on simple drugs are all but impossible to match.

I for one would love to see a tour where everyone uses doping openly. then it's all about strength of body again (how much doping can your body handle/are you willing to endure since it screws up your body so hard).

Problem with that is, doping cyclists have life expectancy 15-20 years shorter. So, ethically, we could have allowed real gladiator fights with swords as well. Plus, seeing how money buys best drugs, it would be simple auction with teams paying with millions of $ and years of life of entrants, not meaningful competition even if we allowed it.

[Aedilred]

Originally Posted by Trixie

And just how do you propose it was 'proven' McLaren used any of the info? By putting gun to the head of everyone concerned and grilling them until they confess?

.... Do any less than ban and sport turns into farce, and F1 nearly did with McL coming that close to WDC and basically getting no punishment whatsoever, not even financial one, when in the past teams got multiple race bans for much less.

They got the largest fine in F1 history, as well as disqualification from the WCC. But in any case F1 is largely already a farce. Some jurisdictions don't even classify it as a sport. The favouritism shown to Ferrari by the FIA under Mosley was astonishing, extending to his doing everything in his power to ensure the succession of Jean Todt. The punishments doled out under Mosley were applied with extreme prejudice and intended to be exemplary rather than proportionate. Like I say, Renault were mixed up in the espionage scandal that year and received absolutely no punishment whatsoever. Ferrari were known to have raced with an illegal car and received no punishment for that. Recall also the Spa '08 fiasco with Massa being credited with the race win despite never holding the lead, thanks to a retrospective penalty applied to Hamilton for, effectively, having the temerity to race.

McLaren did deserve punishment, it's true, and disqualification from the WCC was probably fair under the circumstances. However, erasing all the points they earned from the record books gives a thoroughly misleading impression in retrospect as to what happened on the track that season.

Oh, and also funny you state there is no proof McL used any of the info, when all team drivers were openly talking in emails how useful the info is, yeah, no proof here, they must have been taking about weather, maybe. Same with Martin Whitmarsh admitting number of parts might have been 'influenced' by Ferrari parts, begging to not ban 2008 car too as they will address all problematic parts ASAP, but I guess he didn't knew what he was talking about, too.

Hence (one of the reasons) why I fingered Alonso as a culprit. De la Rosa too, I guess, although there was never a suggestion that Hamilton knew anything about it. That information seemed to be being used in preparation for the 2008 season for the most part, though, rather than in the contemporary 2007 one. Although there is an element of vicarious liability to bear in mind, it does seem, though, that it was almost entirely Stepney and Coughlan, with some testing input from those two drivers. Whitmarsh and Dennis didn't seem to know anything about it until after it came publicly to light.

Also, I'm still interested to know where the "lying under oath" allegation against McLaren comes from. Because if that was the case I'd have expected to see perjury charges, and if not... those allegations shouldn't be made.

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by Aedilred

They got the largest fine in F1 history, as well as disqualification from the WCC.

That 'largest' fine was returned to them by British taxpayers. Doesn't that include you and your family? As I said, penalty free.

The favouritism shown to Ferrari by the FIA under Mosley was astonishing, extending to his doing everything in his power to ensure the succession of Jean Todt.

Favoritism? They didn't won anything save Raikkonen title since 2004. That might have been true once, not anymore, IMHO. These days, it's mostly anti-RB advantages regulations, essentially favouring McLaren and to lesser degree Ferrari and Mercedes.

Sigh, I remember how many things Hamilton get away with, earning no penalties for things other drivers got race bans, to the point he was called FIAmilton in one season, not anymore thankfully, but if anyone turned F1 into farce it's him and his Tweets, like that last Button 'unfollow' one. Had Schumacher got this kind of blind eye in 96 and 97, he would have 10 titles now.

Renault were mixed up in the espionage scandal that year and received absolutely no punishment whatsoever.

Well, yes, maybe they should have got one, but their drivers were not stupid enough to openly talk how good stolen info is, nor Renault challenged anything that year. Penalty should be double if you contest top spots of legit players, IMHO. But, okay.

Ferrari were known to have raced with an illegal car and received no punishment for that.

Um, practice of taking disputed part to a race only to take it off as soon as it is declared bending rules is quite common, IIRC. Everyone does that, had, say, F-Duct been declared illegal as McLaren went quite deep in loopholes making it, they would have had illegal car for a whole season.

Recall also the Spa '08 fiasco with Massa being credited with the race win despite never holding the lead, thanks to a retrospective penalty applied to Hamilton for, effectively, having the temerity to race.

Other current F1 drivers believed he broken the rules there, passing outside of track. But yes, stewards make stupid decisions a lot, especially if British ex-driver (Hill...) is steward and German driver is the target...

Also, I'm still interested to know where the "lying under oath" allegation against McLaren comes from. Because if that was the case I'd have expected to see perjury charges, and if not... those allegations shouldn't be made.

Nigel Stepney initially lied while interrogated by Italian police, getting off 2 year prison sentence for that only due to plea bargain. His McLaren partner, Mike Coughlan, was caught red-handed in police raid before being interrograted, thus having no opportunity to do so. Both approached other teams demanding money from Honda for stolen documents, making it higly unlikely they gave them for McLaren for free.

Alas, all cases ended with various plea bargains, so, yes, you can't say anyone went to jail over that specifically.

[Asta Kask]

Originally Posted by Maelstrom

Er, Neil, you mean...Louis was a brass blower ;)

Detect Humor (Ex): This ability allows you to detect humorous posts even when not accompanied by the indicated smileys.

[Socratov]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

Detect Humor (Ex): This ability allows you to detect humorous posts even when not accompanied by the indicated smileys.

well, it is a rare skill, not every klass has it...

[Blue1005]

I do not feel sorry for him at all. His ethics and morals are questionable on many levels.

[Karoht]

It is a problem with the whole sport.
It is infered to be a problem with many sports.
The actions of one athlete are inconsequential, except as offering her/him up as a scapegoat.

This is why I no longer support or really have any interest in professional sports these days. And it is going to take one heck of an overhaul to this and other problems.