If we're walking into a village and attacking, it's all but a certainty.
Like I said, I'm not mad at you, I'm mad at the system. Look, Zman, I don't find the idea of "Just kill them all and let the gods sort them out!" fun. At all, for most of the same reasons that the Giant wrote Start of Darkness in the first place. In the future, can we please have more options available besides, "They're evil, kill 'em all!"
I think one of Natalia's goals now, in addition to her machines, is finding--or making--a place that's the opposite of Hillsfar, where anyone can live as long as they don't cause trouble.
I have given many more options than "They're evil, kill 'me all.". You don't have to kill civilians. Most will not engage you, that is a fact.
Have you discounted the take the head of the snake and the body dies plan?
This is still a scouting mission meant to kill their fighters and preferably their leadership. You don't have to sneak attack the sleeping Orc babies. You have choic. And I doubt anyone in the party will be killing innocents. The truth still is that any adult Orc fighter in there has been bred and raised to be evil and has likely done many unspeakably evil acts, or at the least dreams of such acts fondly.
It has been the parties decision that has led them to this point. I'm not forcing anyone's hand.
Don't forget that most Orcs are evil, and their race has done much to earn that reputation including killing people in Linwood. Given the chance they will rape and kill Natalia whether she pitties them or not.
I don't believe Natalia is staying true to character, or at least true to how she has been played to date.
She has taken pleasure in killing.
Her preferred method of killing revolves around striking opponents when they cannot defend themselves in the most lethal of spots. She dislikes a fair fight.
She is very keen to cause the most damage as possible with traps, which by nature do not discriminate between fighters and nonfighters.
She has used some pretty vile threats.
She has shown no such mercy for the choker, an intellignt creature who's home was invaded and was defending itself and was wholesale slaughtered and turned into calamari.
It's an odd time for Natalia to develop such a consciounce especially for a race of murdering rapists and thieves. Granted not all orcs are evil, but it is in their base nature to be. It is the exceptions which are non evil, not the norm.
As far as I see it every time she has "enjoyed" killing it was when she was protecting Mithril or the group. The ogres were a threat to the whole group and the choker was threatening Mithril's life.
As far as I see it every time she has "enjoyed" killing it was when she was protecting Mithril or the group. The ogres were a threat to the whole group and the choker was threatening Mithril's life.
Exactly.
And if it were an "assassinate the leader" thing then that's a bit different. But...But do they have to be innately evil? Seriously? That's really the source of it.
And if it were an "assassinate the leader" thing then that's a bit different. But...But do they have to be innately evil? Seriously? That's really the source of it.
But I really have to get going now.
And the Orcs are just "protecting" their right to take what they want. Doesn't change that they feel killing humans and taking what is theirs is perfectly acceptable, and you feel that conduct is morally wrong.
Are wolves innately aggressive? Are humans innately selfish?
Not every Orc is evil, but that does not change the fact that most are. They, as a race, are evil. That does not mean that as individuals they are.
In their eyes, they are doing what they feel is right and just. It is their culture to be barbaric, warlike, and in conflict with intelligent beings near them. That will not change.
It's not an assassinate the leader plan because there isn't enough information to do that yet.
But we don't think every wold deserves to die--yet according to this alignment system every orc deserves to die. There's a difference between aggressive and evil, and saying that orcs are evil essentially says that any attempt at diplomacy, at a solution that doesn't end with one side wiped out, is inherently going to fail.
I feel there's a "But thou must!" pressure towards killing them, and while DnD is a fighting game, saying that there's no chance of working things out now or in the future, and that orcs will kill you no matter what because that's what they are so it's better to kill the monsters and save yourself, upsets me. I don't find it fun. The alignment system is ****ed up and I much prefer the idea of "No race is inherently good or evil. Some have more aggressive cultures than others, but no race is inherently good or evil. It's all about the individual."
Why does Natalia feels bad about killing the choker? Mithril invades its home, it defends itself and we kill him. Actually Natalia is the most vicious of all. Where was her moral compass there?
I am not sure where anyone said kill the all and let the gods figure it out. I thought that fighters were the one and only target, not civilian. I do not remember reading once that anyone said to go kills the non-combattants. We are not doing blind strike from drone. We are entering ennemy territory to thin out its forces.
I understand coffee take with DnD evil race. Her webcomic does an excellent job exposing and destroying rigid alignment approach.
By the way, trying to build an anti-hilfar town is a great idea that Miriam would support 100% and would be more than happy to give all the gold she earns to.
There is a solution that involves killing exactly 0 Orcs. But, it is not my fault that no one has figured it out. Many more that involve killing 2 Orcs, and many many more more likely scenarios which involve killing many more. All have varying degrees of success.
Actually, there are multiple solutions where we don't kill Orcs. Unfortunately, most involve many many human casualties.
...is natalia really that volent? im sorry, im on my phone and ths has been on my mind all night. guys,wat do you thinkwth this situation and the alingment system? ive been selfish and im sorry. and imisunderstood the situation.
Guys, I'm really sorry about all this. Do you want me to just shut up and play the game? I'm been talking about how the alignment system bothers and upsets me so much because it morally justifies just killing, but I never asked any of you how you felt and that's selfish of me.
Guys, I'm really sorry about all this. Do you want me to just shut up and play the game? I'm been talking about how the alignment system bothers and upsets me so much because it morally justifies just killing, but I never asked any of you how you felt and that's selfish of me.
Don't forget that you are playing a character in a setting where killing is morally justified and by its nature encouraged. The alignment system isn't perfect, but it was created this way to avoid so many dilemmas like this.
I know, it's just...I really don't know if I can reconcile this essentially institutionalized racism and have fun with the game. To me, it's upsetting and disturbing to just paint whole groups in broad strokes like that. And, at least, in my opinion, it can be more fun if a character can be anything. What happens if we remove an orc from that environment and place him in a city? Sure, he could be a serial rapist, but he could just as likely be a shopkeeper, or someone who likes to heckle the players at a sports game and get into bar fights.
But like I said, I'm not the only player in the game. I want to know what everyone else thinks about this before we decide anything, if that's okay with you. And don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying this game and this group so much.
Truth be told, there is the door if you are not happy.
I have never said every member of a race is evil. You have failed to listen to me, came to your own conclusions, and gotten on your high horse.
I will expand an analogy I used earlier. Are all wolves aggressive? Yes. It is their nature and their breeding to be predators. Can you tame a wolf? Yes, but it is higher risk han taming a dog. Wild dogs had to be bred for hundreds of generations to be fully domesticated. Now, because you can tame a wolf, should you approach and trust your life to a wolf in the wild? No, it would be foolish to. There are reasons why wolves, tigers, and other large predators shouldn't be kept as pets. Because, it is in their nature to be predators, to be aggressive, and there is a good chance they will turn in you.
Just in case you missed it, Orcs are Wolves and Humans are Dogs. But it gets worse, because the Orcs are cogent, and they have crafted a culture and society which exacerbates those tendencies, and hell that society breeds based upon the most aggressive and strongest among it. Now it may not be "Evil", but it certainly makes them a threat, and they are at war with the people who have hired you. You took a contract to mindlessly kill these "people".
Now, you are trying to apply high minded and modern ideals to a Midievil fantasy culture which holds strong to those prejudices. It's OOC to go against those prejudices like you currently are. Alignment is often overly simplistic and has flaws, but because it has flaws is no reason to throw a fit. You have an enemy which you know consists of murders, rapists, and torturers and you want to hold their hands and be friends. If so, try it IC and see what happens.
The issue is really not up for debate. You've been presented with a situation, feel free to respond in any way you and your character feel appropriate. If that isn't good enough for you, find the virtual door. I feel you are overreacting and am reacting in kind.
I didn't say I wanted to hold their hands and be friends, what I was trying to say is that I'm a bit worried about the precedent this makes for future events of a similar nature. Zman, what did I do to make you lace into me?
I didn't say I wanted to hold their hands and be friends, what I was trying to say is that I'm a bit worried about the precedent this makes for future events of a similar nature. Zman, what did I do to make you lace into me?
I'm worried about the precedent too. How much about the generally accepted setting will be questioned. How much needless arguing will ensue?
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Originally Posted by CoffeeIncluded
Zman, I don't wanna go. I like this group and I want to stay and what did I do to make you so angry at me?
in retrospect I was a bit harsh, but I don't see the moral conundrum given the situation and setting.
Zman, the whole thing was a misunderstanding. I thought we were going after more than the fighting orcs.
Quote:
I don't see the moral conundrum given the situation and setting.
My main question about "often chaotic evil" is is it a question of culture or is it innate? It's the innate assumption that I don't personally like. With culture we can, as Natalia would put it, turn wolves into dogs.
Zman, the whole thing was a misunderstanding. I thought we were going after more than the fighting orcs.
My main question about "often chaotic evil" is is it a question of culture or is it innate? It's the innate assumption that I don't personally like. With culture we can, as Natalia would put it, turn wolves into dogs.
You can't, with culture, turn a wolf into a dog. Dogs were bred relatively passive and domestic through a concentrated breeding program. Wolves are wild, aggressive predators. The only way to turn a wolf into a dog is to breed the aggressive tendencies out of them, then with proper culture will you have a dog.
It is partly innate, partially culture. An Orc raised by humans could very well be an upstanding citizen, but more than not it will cause more trouble and be more violent than a human. It's in their blood.
I know it's your world and it's technically RAW and I like the game too much for that to be a complete turn-off. Meta-wise, I still don't like it though. I don't want to keep fighting about it though.
I know it's your world and it's technically RAW and I like the game too much for that to be a complete turn-off. Meta-wise, I still don't like it though. I don't want to keep fighting about it though.
My stance is well know. You can do what you like, if you want to spare all the orcs and bake cakes, go for it, but don't expect that just because you want to play nice that the orcs will too. My stance isn't RAW, I'm far more lenient.
My stance is well know. You can do what you like, if you want to spare all the orcs and bake cakes, go for it, but don't expect that just because you want to play nice that the orcs will too. My stance isn't RAW, I'm far more lenient.
No, I know we can't spare all the orcs in this situation. I'm just wondering if that makes a community where all races can live together, if not in harmony, then at least peaceably possible.
One of the greatest DM I ever played with once told me as we discussed Good vs Evil "The biggest mistake people make is applying 21st century enlightenment into a medieval survival of the fittest setting."
One of the greatest DM I ever played with once told me as we discussed Good vs Evil "The biggest mistake people make is applying 21st century enlightenment into a medieval survival of the fittest setting."
Also what does the RAW initials stand for?
Rules As Writter, but in this case we are also talking about FAW, Fluff As Written.
I think your DM was absolutely right. It's also a fantasy setting, did they worry about sparing the Orcs in Lord of the Rings?
Guys, can we please stop this? I told you, this is making me personally uncomfortable.
Look, you can't just go and ask me to not put modern ideals into this setting. If you were going to continue down that path, then Natalia, Miriam, and Mithril wouldn't be adventuring with the guys. Natalia's gay and nobody in the group's given her a hard time for it. Those are modern ideals.
To awkwardly change the subject. It's family weekend at my school and my parents are getting here in 10 minutes I miss them and they get to meet my friends and boyfriend and spend some time with me! I am so happy. Also since both my friends stayed with family last night I had a sleepover with a friend and watched Peter Pan (2003 version) and Clue! I never had seen Clue before and I loved it. I watched all 3 endings.
Look, I don't want my personal discomfort to ruin the game for everyone else, okay?
It is just not you. Athedia is uncomfortable. Remember when you took the stuff from Mortin and I said that Miriam will have a huge issue with and we decided that she did not need to know?
Sometimes as, a player you cangive insight on a character feelings and motivation to try to avoid conflicts.
Because the biggest killer of PBP is player conflict because it sucks up the fun out of everybody.
The only concern I really have that each time there will be violence we will be arguing about it.
We already have a tough time deciding what to from a strategic point of you. If in addition we do not agree on methods when fighting, we will go nowhere fast.
It's more my OOC personal discomfort that's bleeding into Natalia. But you're right.
Uhm, how's this? Natalia will go into the caves with you guys, but she won't look to start any fights; she'll consider information more important. She'll fight back if we're attacked, and she won't hold back because they won't be holding back, but she won't go around decapitating the orcs either. She'll disarm them once they're unconscious though.
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I miss them and they get to meet my friends and boyfriend and spend some time with me! I am so happy. Also since both my friends stayed with family last night I had a sleepover with a friend and watched Peter Pan (2003 version) and Clue! I never had seen Clue before and I loved it. I watched all 3 endings.
