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Old 10-31-2012, 06:11 PM   Top  -  End  -  #1
BelGareth
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Default Incarnum Redone (3.5)[PEACH]

Incarnum

I loved the system since the first time I read it, although, to be honest, it confused the heck out of me.

But since then, I have taken the metaphorical dive head first and grasped it by the throat with a kung fu grip.

And well, the whole system is freaking awesome, fluff wise it blows the socks of any competitors, but crunch wise was a little...weak and wonkey.

At first I tried to rewrite it for Pathfinder, and stalled, and since then I have written a new class that was, originally designed for Pathfinder (Psicarnum for those interested), but seeing as i play 3.5 almost 95% of the time and the system was, well...never truly fixed, I thought to myself, why not do a fix?

Well here you go

So some glaring issues have always bothered me with the Incarnum system:

WALL OF TEXT, ATTACK!
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:14 PM   Top  -  End  -  #2
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Default Re: Blah blah

Incarnate Class
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SoulBorn Class

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The Totemist
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:23 PM   Top  -  End  -  #3
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Default Re: Blah blah

Totemist Soulmelds
A-K
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*Note Some SoulMelds that appear on the Incarnate & Soulborn list might appear on the Totemist list, but they may not do the same thing.

Last edited by BelGareth : 11-02-2012 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:25 PM   Top  -  End  -  #4
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Default Re: Blah blah

Totemist Soulmelds
L-Y
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*Note Some SoulMelds that appear on the Incarnate & Soulborn list might appear on the Totemist list, but they may not do the same thing.

Last edited by BelGareth : 12-28-2012 at 04:44 AM.
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:28 PM   Top  -  End  -  #5
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Default Re: Incarnum Redone (3.5)

Incarnate & SoulBorn Soulmeld List
A-Im
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*Note Some SoulMelds that appear on the Incarnate & Soulborn list might appear on the Totemist list, but they may not do the same thing.

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Old 10-31-2012, 06:29 PM   Top  -  End  -  #6
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Default Re: Incarnum Redone (3.5)

Incarnate & SoulBorn Soulmeld List
In-W
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*Note Some SoulMelds that appear on the Incarnate & Soulborn list might appear on the Totemist list, but they may not do the same thing.

Last edited by BelGareth : 11-02-2012 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:30 PM   Top  -  End  -  #7
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Default Re: Incarnum Redone (3.5)

Feats

INCARNUM FEATS
Incarnum feats are similar to soulmelds in that they allow you to invest essentia into them, increasing their power. However large your essentia pool is, you can only invest a certain amount of essentia into any one soulmeld, feat, class feature, magic item, or other incarnum receptacle. Your character level determines this essentia capacity. Incarnum feats display visual manifestations of their effect, such as a faint radiance or glow. Unless noted otherwise, these effects do not provide any actual illumination and do not affect a character’s ability to hide

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Last edited by BelGareth : 11-18-2012 at 01:52 AM.
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:41 PM   Top  -  End  -  #8
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Default Re: Incarnum Redone (3.5)

DM Options

Optional Feats
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:42 PM   Top  -  End  -  #9
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Default Re: Incarnum Redone (3.5)

Prestige Classes

Incandescent Champion
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Incarnum Blade
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Indigo Blade
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Ironsoul Forgemaster
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Soulcaster
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Midnight Shaper
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More Coming...

Last edited by BelGareth : 05-27-2013 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:59 PM   Top  -  End  -  #10
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Default Re: Incarnum Redone (3.5)

Skills

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Alternate Class Features
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:45 PM   Top  -  End  -  #11
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Default Re: Incarnum Redone (3.5)

Feel free to post, if you want to.
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:51 PM   Top  -  End  -  #12
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Default Re: Incarnum Redone (3.5)

I like that there is more equivalence with already existing systems; makes it feel more intuitive (because chances are the reader has already memorized those).

Do you think you could boost the Totemist to full BaB? The Totemist is all about smacking things in the face, but the lower BaB makes this sometimes hard to pull off.

I like that the Dragonfire Mask grants you an actual breath weapon. This lets you use your metabreath feats on it, which could get intense.
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:09 PM   Top  -  End  -  #13
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Default Re: Incarnum Redone (3.5)

The Aligned Soulmeld clause now officially has banned the Soulborn from shaping any soulmelds with an alignment descriptor. Honestly, I never understood why they had this stupid rule. Not only does it not make sense from an alignment perspective but it isn't even fair if they aren't going to give an even roughly equal amount of soulmelds in each.

Last edited by Amnoriath : 11-01-2012 at 11:10 PM.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:00 PM   Top  -  End  -  #14
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Default Re: Incarnum Redone (3.5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
I like that there is more equivalence with already existing systems; makes it feel more intuitive (because chances are the reader has already memorized those).

Do you think you could boost the Totemist to full BaB? The Totemist is all about smacking things in the face, but the lower BaB makes this sometimes hard to pull off.

I like that the Dragonfire Mask grants you an actual breath weapon. This lets you use your metabreath feats on it, which could get intense.
Thanks, in regards to the Totemist, I have a ACL lined for it that will do the trick (that or another class like it). You know what, I will, the Ranger is a D8 and very similar...Full BAB coming up. (I might add some DM options and ACL's for it too)

And yes, even though that breath attack is slightly weaker than some of the others. Metabreath it up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
The Aligned Soulmeld clause now officially has banned the Soulborn from shaping any soulmelds with an alignment descriptor. Honestly, I never understood why they had this stupid rule. Not only does it not make sense from an alignment perspective but it isn't even fair if they aren't going to give an even roughly equal amount of soulmelds in each.
I haven't actually changed the Aligned soulmeld clause, but I do see your point. While there isn't a whole lot of melds that are aligned, I don't see why the ones with the alignments (with maybe an exception to necrocarnum) are restricted. I am going to remove/change those....SoulBorns are restrcited enough as it is.

Thanks for the comments.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:24 PM   Top  -  End  -  #15
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Default Re: Incarnum Redone (3.5)

while i havent read through more then the first post, i have these to say:

1: There are 12 magic item slots, and 10 Chakras.

2: Some soul melds are worth as much or even more then magic items, Sphinx claws* and the one that give flight per essentia are the most obvious.

*a Charger paladin is going to be getting +120 damage from that alone
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:00 PM   Top  -  End  -  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toapat View Post
while i havent read through more then the first post, i have these to say:

1: There are 12 magic item slots, and 10 Chakras.
Quite, but leaving only 2 open is silly to me, and yes I know I extended the option for chakra binds to 10 and not 5. But even blocking off 5 is rediculous.

But that is my opinion and yours may vary.

Quote:
2: Some soul melds are worth as much or even more then magic items, Sphinx claws* and the one that give flight per essentia are the most obvious.
And so are some invocations (fell flight comes to mind) but they do not block off magic items.

Quote:
*a Charger paladin is going to be getting +120 damage from that alone
More info on this would be helpful, not sure how a charger paladin can get a +120 damage from sphinx claws.
As far as I can see, it grants bonuses to Str checks, Bull rushes, a bite attack and Pounce.....
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:13 PM   Top  -  End  -  #17
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As far as I can see, it grants bonuses to Str checks, Bull rushes, a bite attack and Pounce.....
Pounce, but more specifically, that Charging Smite is not in and of itself locked to a single attack like smite evil. having a lance doubles the already impressive 3x level to damage.
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:20 PM   Top  -  End  -  #18
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Pounce, but more specifically, that Charging Smite is not in and of itself locked to a single attack like smite evil. having a lance doubles the already impressive 3x level to damage.
Pounce alone is not broken, you can get it from other classes (UA Barbarian for example) and by the time you get it via Incarnum you are 2 feats deep and at least 7th level (I modified the Open Least Chakra feat). To me, as a player/DM, 2 feats for Pounce is a good tradeoff, I would allow it in games I ran and it would be something I might choose to get with my characters.
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:30 PM   Top  -  End  -  #19
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Originally Posted by BelGareth View Post
Pounce alone is not broken, you can get it from other classes (UA Barbarian for example) and by the time you get it via Incarnum you are 2 feats deep and at least 7th level (I modified the Open Least Chakra feat). To me, as a player/DM, 2 feats for Pounce is a good tradeoff, I would allow it in games I ran and it would be something I might choose to get with my characters.
1: Pounce is broken, because of Lances, bonus damage, and how charging works.
2: 2 feats when charging itself is minimal investment. Rhino Charge just layers on the rediculous
3: Lion Spirit Totem is from Complete Chamion, and better then Lion totem from UA
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:35 PM   Top  -  End  -  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toapat View Post
1: Pounce is broken, because of Lances, bonus damage, and how charging works.
2: 2 feats when charging itself is minimal investment. Rhino Charge just layers on the rediculous
3: Lion Spirit Totem is from Complete Chamion, and better then Lion totem from UA
And this is the crux of the game, if the DM is ok with sphinx claws (or pounce) then they can allow it in their games. If not then they can bar it.

The game rules is as it has always been, a guideline, intended to empower the DM to make the whole thing fun.

If you do not like the Pounce/sphinx claws, ok, do not use them/allow them in games you run.

I on the other hand (as expressed above) disagree. and the beauty of the boards, gaming and homebrew is that's ok.

I was hoping to get creative/constructive feedback and not get hung up on one issue.

I appreciate where you are coming from, so, what would you suggest I do to remedy this? (I am after all, creating some ACL/DM options for alternate rules)
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:50 PM   Top  -  End  -  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BelGareth View Post
I was hoping to get creative/constructive feedback and not get hung up on one issue.

I appreciate where you are coming from, so, what would you suggest I do to remedy this? (I am after all, creating some ACL/DM options for alternate rules)
i would make it so that some of the truly exceptional soulmelds do consume a slot for magic items when bound, but most wont, because class features are class features.
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:55 PM   Top  -  End  -  #22
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Originally Posted by BelGareth View Post

I haven't actually changed the Aligned soulmeld clause, but I do see your point. While there isn't a whole lot of melds that are aligned, I don't see why the ones with the alignments (with maybe an exception to necrocarnum) are restricted. I am going to remove/change those....SoulBorns are restrcited enough as it is.

Thanks for the comments.
It is precisely because of Necrocarnum. I talked about this before in the Incarnum Unleashed part 2 Evil got the upperhand because all they had to do was keep their Incarnum weapon shaped at the low levels until they could afford a skillful weapon. Their aura, Incarnate Avatar, and Bloodwar Gauntlets would easily add up bonus damage in the 30's(original) and there were a couple of different means to increase attack off the now moderate progression. However they also had a buddy to share some of the brutality with. Lawful and Chaotic didn't get any other than their version of Incarnate x(arguably though the Lawful Avatar soul bind is one of the best) than good got the Lammasu Mantle and something else. The theme of the Incarnate is that they are suppose alignment x incarnate but only evil got that major distinction.
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Old 11-02-2012, 03:51 PM   Top  -  End  -  #23
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Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
It is precisely because of Necrocarnum. I talked about this before in the Incarnum Unleashed part 2 Evil got the upperhand because all they had to do was keep their Incarnum weapon shaped at the low levels until they could afford a skillful weapon. Their aura, Incarnate Avatar, and Bloodwar Gauntlets would easily add up bonus damage in the 30's(original) and there were a couple of different means to increase attack off the now moderate progression. However they also had a buddy to share some of the brutality with. Lawful and Chaotic didn't get any other than their version of Incarnate x(arguably though the Lawful Avatar soul bind is one of the best) than good got the Lammasu Mantle and something else. The theme of the Incarnate is that they are suppose alignment x incarnate but only evil got that major distinction.
So your only issue is with Necrocarnum....Those soulmelds are not on the list.

I took them out, I am still working on them and plan to do a Prestige class for its use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toapat View Post
i would make it so that some of the truly exceptional soulmelds do consume a slot for magic items when bound, but most wont, because class features are class features.
I could change the power level for the soulmeld, say...equivalent to a 6th level spell ? That would make it a Waist Bind.

I'm also thinking of removing the feats to gain access to bining chakras, allowing only those PC's who take levels to do so.
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:38 PM   Top  -  End  -  #24
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Default Re: Incarnum Redone (3.5)

My suggestion for pounce is make it only apply to natural attacks. That works for everything that a Totemist has, but prevents dip abuse.
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:44 PM   Top  -  End  -  #25
toapat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BelGareth View Post
I could change the power level for the soulmeld, say...equivalent to a 6th level spell ? That would make it a Waist Bind.

I'm also thinking of removing the feats to gain access to bining chakras, allowing only those PC's who take levels to do so.
removing the open chakra feats hurts the incarnum classes more then Charger paladin and other builds. ok, so you can customize a class and get some things PCs normally arent supposed to, Awesome. Its just that you have to keep in mind that not all abilities are equal.
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Old 11-02-2012, 05:08 PM   Top  -  End  -  #26
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Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
My suggestion for pounce is make it only apply to natural attacks. That works for everything that a Totemist has, but prevents dip abuse.
That's a very good idea, i like it. plus pouncing with a lance has cheese all over it, this will just enforce that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toapat View Post
removing the open chakra feats hurts the incarnum classes more then Charger paladin and other builds. ok, so you can customize a class and get some things PCs normally arent supposed to, Awesome. Its just that you have to keep in mind that not all abilities are equal.
I disagree, the only reason they need a feat to take an additional chakra should be for Epic levels for the chakras that are not unlocked via their class levels, if they were allowed to take them before that, they would screw the class chakras.
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:22 PM   Top  -  End  -  #27
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So your only issue is with Necrocarnum....Those soulmelds are not on the list.

I took them out, I am still working on them and plan to do a Prestige class for its use.
Yes, but they are still going to have the evil descriptor right? The point is the original and now there is no reason to think that the Incarnates ever even fit their fluff aside from the evil because they don't have soulmelds of their own.
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:37 PM   Top  -  End  -  #28
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Yes, but they are still going to have the evil descriptor right? The point is the original and now there is no reason to think that the Incarnates ever even fit their fluff aside from the evil because they don't have soulmelds of their own.
Well...yes, however i am planning on redoing the Necrocarnate PRC and having/redoing the soulmelds only for the PRC. I also fully intend to redo the Sapphire Hierarch and make similar PRC's for all four alignments and an opposite to Necrocarnum (I'm thinking Animacarnum) so...to answer your question, yes. But the other alignments will have theirs too.
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Old 11-10-2012, 01:34 PM   Top  -  End  -  #29
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Default Re: Incarnum Redone (3.5)

Ok, here is a new PRC, ToB + Incarnum. PEACH.

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Old 11-15-2012, 01:51 PM   Top  -  End  -  #30
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Default Re: Incarnum Redone (3.5)[PEACH]

Like you, i was initially confused by the system but after reading it several times i got the hang of it. i liked the versatility and that it was a totally new system but the spells/soulmelds were like horrid. for a versatile system, why restrict it with stupid alignment, surely it's not THAT important.
I haven't read everything you have posted but it looks like a good & solid revision to me.
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