The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

[Brother Oni]

A big fan of the Mind name A Blue Telephone Booth.

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

It's conceivable that some chapters of the Astartes could be like, 'stay away from our charges and this area of space and there won't be a problem. Go kill this thing and bring proof to get on our good side.'

More like "Go kill this thing and bring proof so that we'll defer killing you to later".

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

Oreo Xenos

Ah, the Oreo Xenos (also known as the Pick n' Mixers), one of the three branches of the Inquisition All Sorts, along with the Oreo Hereticus (aka the Hubba Bubbas) and the Oreo Malloreum (aka the Maltesers).

Ignore me, it's a Friday and I'm in a silly mood.

[Grimsage Matt]

The plot looks good, and I can see some funny stuff happening soon.

[Gavinfoxx]

Originally Posted by Selrahc

I don't think Ork tech is encoded into their genetics.

No, it most definitely is encoded into their genetics; this is canonical, just like technological knowledge is encoded into Kroot (to a lesser extent) and Jokaero (to a greater extent). I could buy that maybe some of the crazier big mek stuff is Waagh consciousness (like some of the exosuits, maybe a few of the bigger vehicles, or Gargants, maybe some parts of Roks), but a good chunk of the basic technical knowledge is from genetics...

Originally Posted by Brother Oni

More like "Go kill this thing and bring proof so that we'll defer killing you to later".

Again, I believe that depends on the Chapter in question...

---

Regarding being at Macragge... this is Kinda A Big Deal.

The Ultramarines and the body of Guilliman is there. If The Culture hasn't actually done some examination of Stasis Fields and figured out, 'wait a minute, this is a temporal distortion!', this might be a good impetus to, in order to figure out what is going on/how to scan Guilliman. And also figure out some more ways to use stasis fields and similar temporal manipulation. Like I said earlier, scanning the body of a Primarch is also a good way to get some ideas and (at least) 'minor improvements' to the genetics of their organics...

---

Also, if The Culture does contact the Ordo Xenos... Amberley should totally be one of the Inquisitors they contact. ;)

[Gavinfoxx]

Originally Posted by Brother Oni

Ah, the Oreo Xenos (also known as the Pick n' Mixers),

I WAS TYPING ON A PHONE. You could have said, 'Gavin, you have what looks like an autocorrect typo in that post, go double check it.' Rather than making fun of me...

*sniffles*...

Sheesh.

I will go fix it now.

[Selrahc]

No, it most definitely is encoded into their genetics; this is canonical,

Where is it defined that precisely? Orks definitely know how to make technology *instinctively*. That isn't quite the same thing.

Feral Orks can't make technology to the same extent as in a proper Waaagh. A small waaaagh doesn't create the same level of technological power as a large one. In the biggest Orkish agglomerations you get things like Stompaz, Fighta-Bombaz and Tellyportas which represent the height of Orkish engineering, but the Orks don't have the know how to build normally. To me, that suggests that the Waaagh field is what is feeding the ability to make technology. It is giving Orks instinctive knowledge.

just like technological knowledge is encoded into Kroot and Jokaero.

Do Jokaero have technical data drilled into their genome, or do they merely have an idiot savant style creative genius instilled into them?

Kroot I'm not really sure about. I was under the impression that most of their advanced tech was based off retrofitted Ork stuff, from when Pech was under Orkish occupation. Then augmented by Tau stuff. What examples are you thinking of?

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Selrahc

I don't think Ork tech is encoded into their genetics. I think all that's encoded into their genetics is the Waaaagh instinct. And then that Warplinked gestalt consciousness is what makes Orks come up with technology innovations.

It is genetically locked into them - that's how a Mek knows the basic principles of mechanics and engineering, and how to build things that go fasta and go boom without ever picking up an engineering textbook, and how a Pain Dok knows how to do the sort of surgery that involves sewing limbs back on instead of cutting them off.

The bigger the WAAAAUGH field, the more complex and impossible their creations get, but there is a certain baseline competence hard-coded into their specialists.

[Gavinfoxx]

It's stated in the RPG books that Kroot seem to favor their own weaponry, and instinctively know how to maintain their own weapons more than weapons based on different principles that are gifted to them. Whether or not this is from eating Orks, or more prevalent in the tribes that eat orks, is left ambiguous...

As for the Jokaero, I'll have to get back to you on that, but I know I read somewhere that they have an instinctive understanding of actual technical skill, and left on their own, they do favor certain particular types of designs and items, in the absence of other tech to make.

[Forrestfire]

Originally Posted by Selrahc

Kroot I'm not really sure about. I was under the impression that most of their advanced tech was based off retrofitted Ork stuff, from when Pech was under Orkish occupation. Then augmented by Tau stuff. What examples are you thinking of?

Kroot tech is actually half-based on retrofitted ork stuff, and half their own genetic tech.

The kroot fed on orks, and assimilated parts of their coding in order to get their own instinctual technology. That's how they originally got their ships if I remember correctly.

[Gavinfoxx]

Except the Kroot use different tech than the Orks; it's more based on their own historic technology, so it wasn't an exact transfer...

I think the existence of Feral Orks using steam-versions of Orky tech has been downplayed in recent versions of the setting, and seems to be (at least) on the verge of 'ignore-con'. As best as I can tell, if there aren't the materials to make certain bits of technology at an area where there are Orks... 'Feral Orks' just don't make the tech; they don't make weird steam-based versions of things. I think Feral Orks are starting to be more a description of Orks that aren't mentally attuned to a greater amount of Orks, and don't have the resources to make most of their tech... after all, I am pretty sure that the larger Squig variants that were 'unique' to Feral Orks are starting to be described as no longer unique to them...

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

I WAS TYPING ON A PHONE. You could have said, 'Gavin, you have what looks like an autocorrect typo in that post, go double check it.' Rather than making fun of me...

Sorry, it just tickled my funny bone and I was in a silly mood.

The fact that autocorrect would change 'ordo' to 'oreo' is also amusing me to no end.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, I'm slooowwllyyy training my phone in 40k Jargon from this thread...

Oh, and another thing, if/when The Culture does show themselves to The Imperium, some notes about various conspiracies that will be jockeying to get them to do this or that...

The conspiracies will likely:
-Be Conflicting in goals
-Be Competing with one another
-Not generally know about one another
-Some will be tied to Chaos relatively closely
-Some will be influenced by Chaos very, very indirectly
-Some will have nothing to do with Chaos whatsoever
-Some will be a Cult of belief or Cult of philosophy of some sort
-Some would've cooperated with others if they knew about others with similar goals, but they don't
-Several will have identical goals as other conspiracies, representing other groups, without having any idea that they share the same goals as other groups
-Some will have a meta knowledge of the patterns of conspiracies, that all of the above is true, even without specific knowledge in the particulars of what is currently going on

Conflicting conspiracies in the Imperium is... a very very messy business...

[Selrahc]

It's stated in the RPG books that Kroot seem to favor their own weaponry, and instinctively know how to maintain their own weapons more than weapons based on different principles that are gifted to them. Whether or not this is from eating Orks, or more prevalent in the tribes that eat orks, is left ambiguous...

Well, your descriptionb sounds pretty ambiguous to me! Surely it's pretty much automatic that the Kroot will know how to use their Kroot equipment a lot better than non-kroot equipment? How can you tell that their familiarity with weapon drill isn't cultural? I mean the Kroot use a lot of genetic-stuff, but that doesn't necessarily have to mean that they have no education or learning.

I bet a human uses a human weapon a lot more instinctively than they'd use one designed for a Kroot or Ork. Because the weapon has actually been designed for their species...

Originally Posted by Glyphstone

It is genetically locked into them - that's how a Mek knows the basic principles of mechanics and engineering, and how to build things that go fasta and go boom without ever picking up an engineering textbook, and how a Pain Dok knows how to do the sort of surgery that involves sewing limbs back on instead of cutting them off.

But none of those Orks actually show up until the Waaagh field reaches a certain level. Before that you get Feral Ork equivalents. Pig Doks fill both roles, on a more primitive level. Then the Waaagh reaches a flipover point, and the Orks start making proper technology and become proper Orks. Then the Waaagh reaches critical mass, they start gearing up for interstellar conflict and building spacecraft.

I mean, is it ever directly stated that it is the genetics giving technological knowledge? Could it not be the Waaagh doing that? From an observational level it's almost exactly the same. Except if you're doing a detailed genome analysis, like the Culture is doing, then you won't know the difference.

I've just read lots of things that specify that the Orks have an instinctual or innate technical expertise, but I can't remember it ever being specifically called out as genetic.

[Gavinfoxx]

Except that an Ork in isolation -- well away from a group of other Orks -- will still be able to make Orky tech, even just a Boy, and not a Mad Dok or Mek Boy whatever.

[Selrahc]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

Except that an Ork in isolation -- well away from a group of other Orks -- will still be able to make Orky tech, even just a Boy, and not a Mad Dok or Mek Boy whatever.

A feral Ork can't... An Ork boy could, but in order for an Ork boy to be created the Waaagh field has to reach a certain level.

Orkoid ecologies already respond very selectively to the Waaagh. Without a preexisting waaagh field, the only Orks that will be born will be Snotlings and Squigs. These minor, non-sentient, Orkoid lifeforms prepare the ecological conditions for Orks to grow. And generate a low level Waaagh field. But the same spores placed somewhere with a preexisting Waaagh, will just grow into Orks. As the Squigs and Snotlings generate a Waaagh field, more complex Orkoid entities start being born. Gretchens and Feral Ork boys. They start making the rudiments of Orkish society, without much tech. They also add to the Waaaagh. When it hits a sufficient level, regular Orks start being born, as well as Oddboyz and Nobz.

Feral Orks are a truly seperate genus of the Orkoid species, able to shoot straight(BS3!), and much more inclined to run away.

So an Ork boy might have the technological knowledge in his brain, because he was born into a Waaagh field which put it into him. Without anything being in his genetic matrix beyond the ability to tap into that Waaagh field...

[Gavinfoxx]

What I am saying is that a lot of the info you are describing on Feral Orks is getting ignore-conned....

When was the last source that REALLY described them as separate in the technologies they use and their kulture? And using steam tech and such? What source was it? Was this mentioned anywhere else?

More recent depictions of Feral Orks doesn't have them as like what you are saying, I mean. They are just Orks that don't use high tech stuff cause of lack of resources, not orks that use a totally different set of technologies.

[tyckspoon]

Re: Ork 'pets':

Spoiler

I suspect Large Stick Speaks Softly will discover that while Orks can be made to *respect* a non-Ork that displays sufficient strength, it would be near-impossible to get them to actually *follow* any being that was not part of the Waaagh loop; such a leader would not be sufficiently Orky on a very fundamental and basic level. Even if the ship created an Orkoid-body plan drone to be its avatar to the Orks, they would likely respond to it similarly to how IoM humans respond to Blanks; the artificial 'Ork' would not have an Ork soul.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by tyckspoon

Re: Ork 'pets':

I suspect Large Stick Speaks Softly will discover that while Orks can be made to *respect* a non-Ork that displays sufficient strength, it would be near-impossible to get them to actually *follow* any being that was not part of the Waaagh loop; such a leader would not be suffiicently Orky on a very fundamental and basic level. Even if the ship created an Orkoid-body plan drone to be its avatar to the Orks, they would likely respond to it similarly to how IoM humans respond to Blanks; the artificial 'Ork' would not have an Ork soul.

Maybe, but that route does not lead to hilarity.

[Gavinfoxx]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Maybe, but that route does not lead to hilarity.

And I support a route that leads to hilarity 100%!

[jseah]

Originally Posted by tyckspoon

Re: Ork 'pets':

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Maybe, but that route does not lead to hilarity.

Spoiler tag that perhaps? =P

Hmm, time to think up a twist now.

RE orks & genetic technology:
Lets say the orks have basic technical expertise in their genome (they have engineering or physics instinctively) but they get ideas from the warpfield that lets them build the bigger stuff. But orks on their own can take other people's ideas and apply their in-built knowledge.

That short story about the ork warchief rebuilding a centrifuge in IoM custody can be explained this way. They know how to build many things, but don't get the ideas to do it until the Waagh starts. Then the Mekboys start appearing.

[Gavinfoxx]

That story I linked to with the centrifuge was 100% fanfic, just saying...

But, as far as I know, that's a workable interpretation you have there!

[jseah]

part 7.5 Chaos Encounter

Spoiler

The development of the warpstorm was observed at a range of 10 lightyears (roughly twice the distance between inhabited stars in this region of space) and was visible in long range hyperspace sensors.

While data was gathered by a GCU currently in interstellar space, a Chaos fleet dropped out of warp in an IoM held system near the edge of the storm that the GCU Sufficiently Advanced Technology was currently scanning.

Data on scrapcode from Golden Goose's battle had been used to harden computer systems since then but no risk was taken. All data channels to the Chaos fleet was scrambled by an effector field that enforced pure static in virtually the entire electromagnetic spectrum. While this had the effect of announcing the GCU's presence and jamming all IoM non-Astropathic communications, no risks were to be taken with respect to Chaos.

The Chaos fleet itself was destroyed by intense CREW bombardment and a displaced nanohole (Schwarzschild hole, lifetime ~1s, total explosive power: 2 x 10^5 kg). The resulting gamma ray burst was shielded by the same jamming effector field, Sufficiently Advanced Technology positioned itself to cover the IoM world as well.
The fragments of the Chaos ships were then destroyed by CAM elimination.

For the next 24 hours, the GCU stayed in orbit to assess any damage that might have leaked through the shield and the IoM's reaction to the event. While the IoM reaction was within societal models, contact was not opened with the planet due to the following event.

A number of IoM citizens and GCU organic citizens were somehow subject to a strange infectious disease. While the affected citizens were restored from backup and all organics in the ship was scrubbed down and quarantined, the plague was not interfered with on the IoM world for two days due to this matter.
-- Addenum: This writing GCU observes that reloading from backup of the various citizens should not have taken more than a day, and during that time, there should have been more than enough time to intervene in the resulting plague on the IoM world.
-- Addenum 2: Sufficiently Advanced Technology would like to note that the plague appeared more virulent than expected and had apparent warp traits. Infection of citizens continued despite no apparent vector until areas that infection occurred in were completely rebuilt. This GCU would like to note that further warp infections appear to be able to linger in areas even without physical cause and recommends destruction of infection sites by CAM.

The plague appeared to convert IoM citizens into mindless zombies that attacked other citizens. Citizens that became part of a Chaos cult and pledged alliegance to a Chaos god called Nurgle were seemingly immune. After watching the plague progress for an additional day, Sufficiently Advanced Technology concludes that this plague has HS-like properties and is probably employed as a weapon by Chaos, probably by this Nurgle god.

The infected areas were sterilized by Pancaker at 1 million gravities to liquiefy all organics then 1 million negative gravities to send the affected planetary surface to orbit where the chunks were displaced into a single solid mass before destruction by complete antimatter annihilation.
The relatively small area of the planet that was affected did not significantly affect the planet's orbit or broader ecosystem although local damage was severe.

A 1 second lifespan blackhole radiates about 10^22 joules of energy. Or about as much as 24 hours of sunlight on earth concentrated into a single explosion. And nearly all of it as ultra-high energy gammas.

That was kinda unexpected.

Still, it's just a bigger boom. Not that important in the grand scheme of things.


So Sufficiently Advanced Technology rips a small chunk of a planet out to rid a Nurgle plague, being unable to reload IoM citizens.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think some ship scale blackhole/gravitic weapons are known in this setting. Rare archeotech and xenostech mostly...

[Forum Explorer]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

I think some ship scale blackhole/gravitic weapons are known in this setting. Rare archeotech and xenostech mostly...

There might be some gravity weapons but I've never heard of a black hole gun in the 40K verse.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think it's more in the scale of 'interfere with targeting or systems, or damage an area of a ship' rather than 'annihilate a ship in one burst' sort of thing. You know, knock weapons off course, interfere with sensors, maybe damage an area or prevent crew from moving, stuff like that.

[The Glyphstone]

There's the Nova Cannon, but that's more 'really big boom' than 'gravitic'...still the most destructive ship-to-ship weapon.

[Gavinfoxx]

Also, another thing to remember about Orks... a Waaagh isn't just a 'war'. It's a 'migration' and 'destructive rampage'. Orks instinctively leave a path of destruction wherever they are going, when they are on a Waagh, whether wherever they are is their goal or not...

[Spamotron]

You know, humanity's Psykers are capable of seeing the future to a limited extent and those abilities are likely recorded in the stuff the Culture already scanned in the IoM archives. Now that they've witnessed hard evidence that the Warp screws with temporal mechanics and know that the Eldar know things that they couldn't possibly know from conventional intelligence resources, deducing that the Eldar have a very refined form of future-sight seems like a no-brainer for the Minds at this point.

Learning about Tzneetch's capabilities could make them super paranoid. An entity that's probably at least as smart as a Mind with Future Sight even better than the Eldar. A Mind or two could end up in a "he knows that I know that he knows..." loop.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, there is game theory that deals with the 'he knows that I know he knows' thing. It comes down to make an educated guess at how many levels your opponent is effectively operating at, and acting accordingly.

[Tiki Snakes]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

Well, there is game theory that deals with the 'he knows that I know he knows' thing. It comes down to make an educated guess at how many levels your opponent is effectively operating at, and acting accordingly.

All according to plan.

[Forum Explorer]

you know it occurs to me that a lot of the information kept by the Inquisition and the Grey Knights is on paper and in books.

This inefficent method is actually more or less deliberate because they don't actually want people to access it plus it's harder to make physical copies compared to digital ones.

Not all information of course and the libraries themselves are organized with a digital catalog. (Likely)