The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

[Fan]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Excess is very subjective, though - the Culture's baseline for 'normal' is so much higher than the average IoM human citizen, so its defintion of hedonism would be proportionately higher and less frequent. Slaanesh will definitely get more powerful, but I think Tzeentch would ultimately have the upper hand when it came down to a clash between the two. Nurgle would go first, followed by Khorne (the Culture's style of violence is too clean for him to draw strength from), and finally Slaanesh, leaving Tzeentch Ascendant.

Maybe it's already started planning this outcome in-story...

Well again, Slaanesh and Tzeentch are allies in that sense. Pleasure, and Change being usually allied when it comes to those, with Slaanesh's only real enemy being Khorne who's belief and love and Death and Pain is anathema to the Pleasure Prince.

I see no reason for them to be enemies, and Tzeentch would want to at very least force the guns to aim two ways if it ever came to fighting The Culture.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Fan

Well again, Slaanesh and Tzeentch are allies in that sense. Pleasure, and Change being usually allied when it comes to those, with Slaanesh's only real enemy being Khorne who's belief and love and Death and Pain is anathema to the Pleasure Prince.

I see no reason for them to be enemies, and Tzeentch would want to at very least force the guns to aim two ways if it ever came to fighting The Culture.

No reason to be enemies, but also no reason to be friends if Tzeentch thinks it can take Slaanesh in a fight. They're only really allies so far as it comes to teaming up against Khorne, who is Slaanesh's opposite and also extremely anti-sorcery. As far as pointing the guns go, having them in two directions would be good, but having them in one direction - all away from itself - would be better. Why fight the Culture when you can ally with them and use them to put yourself at the top of the heap, all but guaranteeing yourself the ability to plot and scheme for eternity?

[grolim]

Crazy thoughts


What if the reason the warp in the cultureverse is so calm is because of the Sublimed? A race that Sublimes kind of exists and operates on multiple levels of reality, so what if the warp is where they live for the Culture?

If members of the Culture Sublimed, would that be a Bad Thing or a Good Thing? Would they be able to go into the warp and lay down some smack? Would they begin to maybe look at the problem as instead of Chaos gods being gods that they are some form of Sublimed race that "lost it"?

In the cultureverse Sublimed races hang out in their version of the warp and have their rules that end up keeping stuff calm and cool. So maybe they can figure out a way to bring that to the 40k verse.

[jseah]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Maybe it's already started planning this outcome in-story...

Certainly as a backup plan at least. It might not be "plan alpha" now, but it's certainly third or fourth place.

Well, it has been a backup plan for Tzeentch since the time the Culture appeared, but also starting only ten posts ago. =D

Originally Posted by grolim

In the cultureverse Sublimed races hang out in their version of the warp and have their rules that end up keeping stuff calm and cool. So maybe they can figure out a way to bring that to the 40k verse.

It sounds good and plausible, but would be too easy.

So sorry, no. =P

[Tiki Snakes]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Excess is very subjective, though - the Culture's baseline for 'normal' is so much higher than the average IoM human citizen, so its defintion of hedonism would be proportionately higher and less frequent. Slaanesh will definitely get more powerful, but I think Tzeentch would ultimately have the upper hand when it came down to a clash between the two. Nurgle would go first, followed by Khorne (the Culture's style of violence is too clean for him to draw strength from), and finally Slaanesh, leaving Tzeentch Ascendant.

Maybe it's already started planning this outcome in-story...

Excess is...not that subjective in this case.

I'm sure the Eldar's baseline for excess was pretty high when they tore a hole in reality and birthed Slaanesh in the first place.

[Selrahc]

Culture "Hedonism" really is pretty weak sauce compared to what Slaneesh looks for. He looks for dominance, depravity, over-indulgence and other tainted pleasures. None of which is really the Culture's bag. Remember, it isn't just pleasure that Slaneesh enjoys. He wouldn't gain power from the innocent but intense pleasure of a child playing on some swings. He needs to smash that kind of innocence and replace it with darkness.

They might be hedonistic, but the vast majority do it in such a clean way I really have trouble seeing Slaneesh drawing much power from it. No rape gangs, ritualized murder, slave-pits, torture rings... nothing that Slaneesh normally encourages.

The reaction of Gurgeh to the Azad really shows me just how pathetic and unsettling the Slaneeshi style of hedonism would be to Culture citizens. It would stick out like a sore thumb.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm sure at one point in these discussions someone mentioned a culture-ship that had perfected recreational torture. I have no idea if that's a canon thing or what, though.

But no, sure, you'll not birth a new eye of terror with the Culture level of hedonism probably. I'm just saying, it's not really your perception of how hedonistic you are being that's relevant.

[jseah]

part 7.5 IoM contact

Spoiler

Following some discussion, an interesting proposal was made by GCU Tick Tacks. It had been pointed out that if our intervention in the IoM would almost certainly cause a collapse, then our intervention would be worse than if we let the atrocities continue. The victims would die either way.

While many strenuous moral arguments were made, this was the course of action that we eventually concluded. The IoM was too fragile for direct intervention and too infiltrated for natural progress by tech transfer. Furthermore, our technology level above the IoM is high enough that we should be able to get away with ignoring them.

We will continue to operate in IoM space, seeking out and tracking Chaos cults and IoM methods of dealing with them, but all IoM military concentrations are to be avoided.

GCU Golden Goose has been asked to constrain its potential technology leakage using all means possible. Including pulling the plug on its mission.

We hope that by our continued non-interference in IoM matters, their attempts to engage us might eventually be turned to engaging Chaos. If we side with the IoM and protect them from external threats like Tyranids and Orks, which are their major resource sinks, we might be able to channel their efforts at Chaos.

The Eldar may require assistance and a sort of peace between the IoM and the Necrons will have to be brokered, which is likely to be problematic, but we stand a far larger chance of avoiding mass deaths in this manner.
Some kind of agreement with the Tau will have to be made to avoid them pressuring the IoM too much, and ensuring that they aren't subject to the more mundane sort of technology leakage to Chaos.

In the meantime, we will use the time bought to extend our reach and scope. If we must eventually intervene directly, then the time should be spent well preparing for it.

Week 2
Starry Banner has delivered our decision to avoid action with the IoM. They appear unconvinced.

A demonstration of our tactical capabilities is being debated. While it clearly shows our tactical capabilities, in this case, forewarned is not necessarily forearmed. And it may divert the IoM from useless military buildups against us.

So, I'm going to go with Tiki Snakes's suggestion to just avoid the IoM and leave them alone. Any idea of how the Culture might get them to give up chasing them out of IoM space and focus on something more important? (like Chaos)

[Selrahc]

Originally Posted by Jseah

Any idea of how the Culture might get them to give up chasing them out of IoM space and focus on something more important? (like Chaos)

Spoiler

CODENAME: Visionary
A proposal for the Imperium's redirection towards better ends

We all know the "Grand and Glorious Imperium of Man, Divine Kingdom of the God-Emperor" is a ritual proscribed place, full of pomp and pageantry. Over the past few months, report after shocking report has come to light both of the incredible waste and the shocking inattention to the worlds under its care. By now, most of us are inured to it. The darkness is de rigeur and certainly paling in comparison to all that we have learned of Chaos.

There are some interesting quirks in their theocratic state however. Teams of Contact personnel have been trawling through societal records over the time we have been here, and have come across patterns of behaviour that were previously attributed to warp activity, or struck off as unreliable. Taken altogether however, they create a stark pattern. The religion of the Imperium, that hokey mysoginistic fate driven mumbo jumbo, does seem to be able to produce tangible effects. Effects not accounted for by warp phenomena. Theories for the exact causes for this vary, and a leading theory suggests that this is the influence of truly Sublime rather than Warp creatures. It does seem to have a marked anti-warp power.

Regardless, this societal underlay is important. It provides us with an ideal means to manipulate Imperium society on a grand scale using less than subtle means. The "God Gambit" would involve seeding likely looking religious figures with highly specific visionary events, coded with all the iconography of the Imperium. These visionary events can then be used to push for all manner of societal changes. Coupled with the release on pressure to the Imperium by our slaughter of the Hegemonizing Swarms that have been infesting this galaxy, and we can push for real social change in this society. Admittedly, social change mandated by false religious visions is a bit morally dubious, but in a society this moribund and resistant to change it is of a much higher likelihood to work than technological intervention.

The first and most obvious pathway for these visionaries however, would be to rally the military forces of the Imperium for a vast crusade. One directed at their most hated foes, the Chaos Space Marines. Our current projections are still being worked through, but initial indications are resoundingly positive. The material world assets of Chaos will be almost wiped out. The death of large portions of Imperium military personnel in the conflict will lessen the stranglehold that force has over society, while the lack of pressures will mean that there is less call to replace it. We're projecting broadly positive intervention profiles societally, despite the necessary vast loss of life that will ensue in the "Cultured Crusade". And if the Crusade is a success, which a very dilligent behind the teams gang will be working to ensure, it will increase the credibility of the visionaries for future societal interventions.

Spoiler

NB. Operation: Prime Mark
In examining profiles, we have come to the conclusion that we could create a fake Emperor with relative ease. Creating a bio-based ship avatoid, with powers akin to those legendarily associated with the Emperor and the computational power to come up with appropriate responses would result in an 86% probability of successful introduction. It is felt however that the assumption of duties of Head of State, as well as the societal upheaval created, is beyond the remit of even radical social interventions. The project has been shelved.

[Tiki Snakes]

Further to the above, and on the subject of the Culture seeding their own Space Marine Chapter via infiltration;
Chapters are often founded SPECIFICALLY to lead a crusade. Just going to...throw that out there.

[Forum Explorer]

Enslavers still exist and they are a very nasty opponent to face. They can infest a psyker without changing the brain waves and slowly grow in psychic strength and being dominating the minds of non-psykers. So once/if the Culture gets psykers they should eventually have to deal with this. Eventually the Enslavers manifest physically or if the flesh host is destroyed that can force a manifestation.


Eldar peace with the IoM requires two things. One that the IoM stops trying to kill the Eldar all of the time. Two that the IoM returns it's Maiden Worlds to the Eldar. Oh and it requires the IoM to learn the differences between Eldar pirates, Dark Eldar, and normal Eldar.

If Tzeench started to gain too much power all three of the other Chaos gods will gang up on him.

[Fan]

Just as a note, the Emperor in question also had the ability to STOP TIME, fling things inter planetary distances, had Super Nova eyebeams, and was capable of actual Teleportation on top of reality alteration. He's the type of being who could very well solo an entire fleet of GCU's / ROU's due to the time stop ability.

I don't think The Culture can replicate that, and if they can't.. well.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Fan

Just as a note, the Emperor in question also had the ability to STOP TIME, fling things planetary distances, had Super Nova eyebeams, and was capable of actual Teleportation.

I don't think The Culture can replicate that.

Are these from the Heresy novels?

And people complain about power creep in codexes...I miss 3E Emprah. He was a badass without putting Dragonball Z to shame.

[Selrahc]

Just as a note, the Emperor in question also had the ability to STOP TIME, fling things planetary distances, had Super Nova eyebeams, and was capable of actual Teleportation.

I don't think The Culture can replicate that.

Sure can.

Maybe not what was actually done, but certainly the physical effects.

Stop time? Just do things faster than anyone can perceive.
Supernova eyebeams? Just use a ship.(I know where you're getting the "Supernova eyebeams" thing from though, and it's clearly not meant to be taken literally. Regardless.)
Teleportation? Displacer device. If you need to go further, use a copy of the Falseperor in the place you're going to.
Fling things planetary distances? Effector.

They don't need to actually copy the Emperor. Just fake it well enough.
But they wouldn't really do it anyway...

EDIT: Glyphstone, Fan is taking some pretty hyperbolic statements dead seriously. Emperor really doesn't do a lot of that stuff. But the Culture could fake it even if he could. And they won't just have to replicate the actual Emperor. They'd have to replicate the legendary Emperor. The God figure of the Imperium. That means being *very* impressive.
... if they were actually going to do that.

[Fan]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Are these from the Heresy novels?

And people complain about power creep in codexes...I miss 3E Emprah. He was a badass without putting Dragonball Z to shame.

He threw The Void Dragon from Earth to Mars. Teleported under his own power on to Horus's Battle Barge when he lowered the shields, bringing Sanguinus, Rogal Dorn, and a number of Adeptus Custodes with him indicating he has planetary range teleportation capabilities.

Then he stops time in The Inqusition War Novels.

And the Super Nova Eyebeams are from The Horus Heresy Novels.

Also, it was powerful enough to force all 4 Chaos Gods from Horus, so it's very much intended to be at least that level of power given they fought the C'Tan who used around the same level of power.

Just as a note though, using Ships to replicate Super Nova Eyebeams is going to be fairly obvious.

Going fast enough to replicate time being stopped is going to break the sound barrier.

Using an effector instead is also going to have the problem of the Falsperor never actually "touching" the thing he's supposed to fling as well. Good for the masses. Not so much for the Inquisition.

[Tiki Snakes]

Originally Posted by Selrahc

EDIT: Glyphstone, Fan is taking some pretty hyperbolic statements dead seriously.

{Scrubbed}

[Fan]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

{Scrubbed}

Can you guys prove it's hyperbole?

No?

Then stop being snide.

Edit: The above is someone using their opinion of hyperbole as fact. The book says it happened, and is very detailed about it. End story.

[Gavinfoxx]

Originally Posted by jseah

Any idea of how the Culture might get them to give up chasing them out of IoM space and focus on something more important? (like Chaos)

Well, how about by...

-Planting false leads (intercepted transmissions, trails their sensors can pick up, etc.) to get the IoM to end up where they want them to, whether that is some place where chaos is or whatever, and when the IoM gets there with a warfleet, they don't find Culture, they find Chaos.
-Just improving their leads on existing problems of Chaos and such in general -- wasn't there a program to push intel on Chaos cults and other hidden things through standard channels? Did that ever go anywhere? Could those programs be increased?


Also, another thing... if the Tau don't have effective measures in place for monitoring and proactively dealing with Chaos and chaos-type Mutations and Genestealer Cults and other such things ready before they annex Imperial worlds (ie, worlds full of humans and abhumans and some mutants)... they will find their control of those worlds and their ability to govern them rapidly diminishing. They probably have already had trouble with some worlds with large and dense populations of humans already... which is where most of the Tau instigated atrocities come from. The Culture would probably guess that this is the case (at least about problems coming up)... if the Tau Empire is forewarned, they might be able to do something about it!

[Urpriest]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

The warp is not just some emotional energy field. It's a fundamental metaphysical layer of reality and inherantly part of pretty much all life. Even the Tau, who were almost certainly engineered to have as little to do with it as possible, have small souls. Even the Orks who do not have souls technically have kind of souls.
Emotion usually has to do with the warp, but the warp is not emotion.

I wasn't saying it was. Simply that, since the warp is a fundamental metaphysical layer of reality in that galaxy, perhaps it is inherently part of pretty much all life because live evolved alongside it, forming what the Culture would classify as symbiotic relationships with the warp lifeforms known as souls. Basically, 40k people could need their souls in a way that Culture citizens don't, despite both having souls, because 40k folks evolved alongside souls, while Culture citizens just got them upon wandering in.

[Forrestfire]

Originally Posted by Fan

Going fast enough to replicate time being stopped is going to break the sound barrier.

While I agree with some of your points, I feel the need to point out that to a civilization that casually moves faster than light, a little thing like breaking the sound barrier really wouldn't be a problem.

[Fan]

Originally Posted by Forrestfire

While I agree with some of your points, I feel the need to point out that to a civilization that casually moves faster than light, a little thing like breaking the sound barrier really wouldn't be a problem.

Well yeah, it's the least of the issues, but it IS an issue.

[Forrestfire]

Also, I think if something purporting to be the Emperor appeared, the inquisition would not only be on top of that immediately, but also checking back with Terra to see if he's still on the Golden Throne.

Which he would be. That plan would probably end badly for the culture...

[The Glyphstone]

Planetary Projectile-Flinging: That makes sense, and while it's awesome for a single human, it's not terribly impressive unless you have a backup quote that details how long it took the Void Dragon to get to Mars - pedantically, an ordinary human could throw a rock to Mars if he had literally perfect aim and nothing got in the way.

-Teleportation: Makes sense for an Alpha+ psyker, and that was around in 3E and before. Like I said, he used to be a badass, not an anime superhero.

-Stopping Time: You're taking that as literal, but I remember the scene you're talking about now (with Jaq Draco), and I'm not certain it was a literal timestop, or even a D&D-esque ultra-super-speed; the entire event took place in Draco's head as the Emperor was talking to him, so that could have simply been a psychic effect that slowed Draco's perception of time down to the Emperor's own glacial thought speed (or sped it up).

-Supernova Eye Beams: If these were used against Horus, there wouldn't have been a ship around them afterwards, and there definitely was. Anything 'with the power of an exploding sun' used in person-to-person combat has to be hyperbole.

-Chaos Gods vs. the C'tan: When did this happen?

[Gavinfoxx]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Planetary Projectile-Flinging: That makes sense, and while it's awesome for a single human, it's not terribly impressive unless you have a backup quote that details how long it took the Void Dragon to get to Mars - pedantically, an ordinary human could throw a rock to Mars if he had literally perfect aim and nothing got in the way.

Did he throw it from ground level? Did he give it full escape velocity? How continual was the psychic/telekinetic thrust?

This was in medieval times, right? When he first battled that dragon, I mean. Did he throw it to Mars then or some centuries later??

So he telekinetically pushed it to Mars then, probably with some sort of extended psionic ritual, right?

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

Did he throw it from ground level? Did he give it full escape velocity? How continual was the psychic/telekinetic thrust?

This was in medieval times, right? When he first battled that dragon, I mean. Did he throw it to Mars then or some centuries later??

So he telekinetically pushed it to Mars then, probably with some sort of extended psionic ritual, right?

Okay, yeah, if it was from ground level that does make it legitimately superhuman.

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Further to the above, and on the subject of the Culture seeding their own Space Marine Chapter via infiltration;
Chapters are often founded SPECIFICALLY to lead a crusade. Just going to...throw that out there.

Alternately, the Culture could just get 1000 volunteers from their own population, upgrade them to the physical equivalent of Space Marines, then have them ride in to the rescue during a major IoM battle/war.

It's happened before with the Space Sharks, I don't see why there isn't scope for another 'lost' Chapter to come back into the fold. It also bypasses the potential mishaps while trying to get the political chicanery to get a Chapter founded for a Crusade.

[Fan]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

Did he throw it from ground level? Did he give it full escape velocity? How continual was the psychic/telekinetic thrust?

This was in medieval times, right? When he first battled that dragon, I mean. Did he throw it to Mars then or some centuries later??

So he telekinetically pushed it to Mars then, probably with some sort of extended psionic ritual, right?

Well, he did throw it TO Mars, so it was at the very least escape velocity.

[Water_Bear]

Originally Posted by Brother Oni

Alternately, the Culture could just get 1000 volunteers from their own population, upgrade them to the physical equivalent of Space Marines, then have them ride in to the rescue during a major IoM battle/war.

It's happened before with the Space Sharks, I don't see why there isn't scope for another 'lost' Chapter to come back into the fold. It also bypasses the potential mishaps while trying to get the political chicanery to get a Chapter founded for a Crusade.

Do the Culture's citizens have the discipline and ruthlessness to actually impersonate Space Marines though?

Like, would they be able/willing to participate in the burning of heretics or massacre of xenos/mutants or would some of them break cover to try to help? Can they maintain the appearance of a strict hierarchal chain of command and zealous worship of the God Emperor, things none of them has ever experienced which go utterly against their own ways of living? Would the "Chapter Master" even be able to command their "subordinants" or would everyone just do their own thing?

[Water_Bear]

Originally Posted by Selrahc

Culture "Hedonism" really is pretty weak sauce compared to what Slaneesh looks for. He looks for dominance, depravity, over-indulgence and other tainted pleasures. None of which is really the Culture's bag. Remember, it isn't just pleasure that Slaneesh enjoys. He wouldn't gain power from the innocent but intense pleasure of a child playing on some swings. He needs to smash that kind of innocence and replace it with darkness.

They might be hedonistic, but the vast majority do it in such a clean way I really have trouble seeing Slaneesh drawing much power from it. No rape gangs, ritualized murder, slave-pits, torture rings... nothing that Slaneesh normally encourages.

The reaction of Gurgeh to the Azad really shows me just how pathetic and unsettling the Slaneeshi style of hedonism would be to Culture citizens. It would stick out like a sore thumb.

I'm not so sure there's a distinction between "pure" hedonism which only hurts oneself/consenting partners/simulations and hedonism in general. Slaanesh isn't the God of Icky-Stuff-We-Wouldn't-Do, or even really the God of Illicit Pleasure, but the God of Pleasure in general. The fact that his cultists and those he corrupts hurt others is because they don't care about anything but their own pleasure, so they'll do anything for a thrill no matter who it hurts.

I really can't imagine the Culture not falling to Slaanesh worship, because they pretty much worship him already. Maybe not enough to create a new Eye of Terror, but maybe a few Warpstorms and a Daemon Prince.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Water_Bear

I'm not so sure there's a distinction between "pure" hedonism which only hurts oneself/consenting partners/simulations and hedonism in general. Slaanesh isn't the God of Icky-Stuff-We-Wouldn't-Do, or even really the God of Illicit Pleasure, but the God of Pleasure in general. The fact that his cultists and those he corrupts hurt others is because they don't care about anything but their own pleasure, so they'll do anything for a thrill no matter who it hurts.

I really can't imagine the Culture not falling to Slaanesh worship, because they pretty much worship him already. Maybe not enough to create a new Eye of Terror, but maybe a few Warpstorms and a Daemon Prince.

Just engaging in hedonism isn't Slaanesh-worship. The Culture's regular routines would definitely empower Slaanesh, but they'd have to be actively dedicated to or done in Hir name to count as worship.