The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

[Fan]

Yes, and all of them were remarkably similar in genetic make up with only a small percentile difference.

Your point is?

[Water_Bear]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

Why would a human dominant galaxy be better than one where humans share with nonhuman intelligences, transhumans, post-humans that are only fathomable to some transhumans, various AIs, various exotic alien intelligences, etc. etc.?

I prefer Humans (Post- > Trans- > Baseline) to Uplifts, though I'd like to see what an intelligent pet is like, prefer Uplifts to AI at least until we've upgraded to the point of parity, and like the idea of aliens from a research perspective but don't see keeping them around.

Mainly it comes down to aesthetics, and it doesn't have much to do with not liking the Culture.

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

....you chose the Renegade ending in Mass Effect, didn't you??

Only in the first three play-throughs. This latest one I'm trying to maximize Galactic Readiness, so it's Paragon all the way.

[Tavar]

The Culture doesn't really dictate morality to anyone, though. Well, assuming you don't wish to be part of their group, nor wish to impose upon them/others. The major reason they are more interventionist in this fiction is that they are essentially on a total war footing.

And, I'd point out that in the Culture, your evolutionary idea is wrong: culture humans are pretty damn similar to Humans, most differences occurring to civilization wide genetic engineering. So, yeah, they're human(this isn't a random thing, either. In one Author Note section, he references it as something deliberately done by something else). More similar to Humans as we know them than those from Warhammer 40k, in all likely hood.

And, again, what makes a Human universe better? The fact that it's humans? I mean, we've had some pretty crappy human dominated civilizations/cultures on earth, so I see no reason why a Galactic Human government would necessarily be better.

[Gavinfoxx]

W_B: edited my post just previous to yours, you might wanna check it out.

Also this particular version of The Culture is imposing significant aspects of their morality on others.. but mostly cause they find themselves surrounded by grimdark, and directly threatened in a profound way.

[Tavar]

Yeah. I mean, look at the Affront from Excession. They genetically engineered their females to suffer pain during sex, had a culture that put importance on rape, engineered multiple types of animals to serve them in cruel ways, enjoyed coquering others and making them act in bloodsports, and so on. The Culture, as a whole, did nothing, because dictating to others isn't what the Culture does. Hell, SC didn't even get involved.

[Gavinfoxx]

yea, the whole, 'oh my, we aren't in a secure position of dominance, strength, and strategic security here, ack!' is causing them to act a bit out of character. Understandably, though.

[Tavar]

I don't think it's quite that bad: they've been weaker than other groups before. The issue here is that the other group(chaos) is inherently hostile, stronger, and at the current point there is no viable combat method they can use. They need help, and the best source for that is the natives.

And even then, they haven't intervened to their fullest extent. Not yet.

[jseah]

Originally Posted by Fan

That does leave me to wonder, how is "Golden Goose" protecting itself from madness by Warp gaze? Viewing the warp unprotected, or even through a gellar field for a non navigator is instant insanity, or at least a gradual corruption.

There are two things:
1) Golden Goose's Mind isn't warp sensitive. It's non-organic
2) It hasn't seen the Warp. The closest it has come is the Daemonship, which did give it alot of trouble with scrapcode

The most the Culture has seen of the Warp directly is viewing a developing realspace warpstorm from a safe distance away (a couple of star systems buffer).

[Parra]

RE: Culture folks pretending to be Space Marines. All they would need is a very small number of Biologicals (or an Avatoid) being the 'Face' for the chapter. The Marines who would be mostly suited up could be Drones or Knife Missiles inside suits. Or even remotely controlled by a Mind.

In fact a single Mind could probably simulate an entire chapter so long as they were not sepperated by interstellar distances

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by Parra

RE: Culture folks pretending to be Space Marines. All they would need is a very small number of Biologicals (or an Avatoid) being the 'Face' for the chapter. The Marines who would be mostly suited up could be Drones or Knife Missiles inside suits. Or even remotely controlled by a Mind.

Yes, but when the SM officers start wearing helmets, the Imperium are going to get suspicious.

In any case, with regard to the point of the average Culture citizen not having the discipline or moral fibre to be Space Marines, I'd agree.
However they have plenty of Contact and Special Circumstances personnel who are more than capable of meeting the standard.

[The Glyphstone]

It was mentioned about the Culture forging a peace between the IoM and the Necrons - it'd take full-on intervention with Culturetech, but it wouldn't be impossible. It's another way the Necrons don't fit the standard HS models, in that they don't actually care all that much about the people, they just want the real estate back and are perfectly happy to let the current residents go live somewhere else. Yeah, planets are small and weird and get hit with stuff, but they matter to Necrons.

[Gavinfoxx]

Aren't there worlds that Necron, Eldar, and IoM all want and claim??

[Forum Explorer]

Necron and Eldar have planets they want but I don't think they overlap with each other. IoM claims every planet.

[jseah]

part 7.5 IoM

Spoiler

As part of an attempt to divert IoM attention from us, we have decided that a small show of our informational capabilities was adequate. Taking over their poorly understood cogitators and planting worms was easy enough, even worms that avoided their surprisingly thorough internal scans even if ritualistic.

Using these worms, we proceeded to display a data dump of all our observed Chaos cells on planets within 20 light years of Terra. Many of these cells were positively identified by mind-scan although details about how we discovered them was not mentioned. One instance of a small dormant Gene-stealer cult (IoM name) was also included.
Despite the void shields that were raised, the worms managed to manipulate the shielding frequencies to allow limited effector penetration, all without the IoM noticing (their sensors were also bugged).

Having demonstrated our infiltration capabilities, the IoM took all their electronic equipment and collected them for analysis. We self-destructed our worms but left the data dump. In the coming weeks, we should see if the IoM present any reaction to the mentioned Chaos cells and the gene-stealer cult.

We hope that if the IoM confirm our covert aid is truth, then we may have some level of cooperation. And indeed, if we manage to catch Chaos or Tyranid infestations early, the IoM may never need to resort to mass deaths and planetary extinction to contain the worst cases, which would greatly improve the IoM society of fear in general.
This can be considered a pilot trial of this tactic. Other such trials may need to be considered in case this specific inquisitor has a problem with the information.

How might the Inquisitor react to these Xenos if they just dump him a list of Chaos cults and Chaos people?

They might be Xenos and not trustable, but would he investigate?


part 7.5 Necrons - start

Spoiler

Week 1
A Necron ship around the world has left orbit and is travelling by hyperspace towards a distant system. ROU White Devil is now tailing that ship with a hyperspace drone.
Their hyperspace drive appears to run on different principles to our own. Theirs does not permit in-system FTL.

Meanwhile, negotiations with the Necrons have met a roadblock. The Necrons are not interested in an exchange program or mutual embassies, although a technology exchange might be possible. They appear to want to understand our intelligence engineering technology, despite being inorganic (and therefore engineered) intelligences themselves.

This is considered strong evidence that the Necrons, while almost HS-like in behaviour, were made that way and there might be hope of reforming them. As part of their behaviour is coded directly into their structure in some unknown fashion, helping the Necrons appears to require us to understand their technology or them to understand ours.

Understandably, both sides still lack enough trust in each other to perform an outright technological trade. And since the Necrons will appear to come into conflict with the IoM, judging by IoM records, we may also be required to negotiate a peace between the Necrons and the IoM.

We have inquired as to what the Necron Lord aims to do.

Would the Necrons tell the Culture what they were up to? (find their Core worlds and activate them)

Would the Necron Lord tell the Culture what the Necrons ultimately want? (they want their planets back and where those planets are)

[Gavinfoxx]

Originally Posted by jseah

How might the Inquisitor react to these Xenos if they just dump him a list of Chaos cults and Chaos people?

They might be Xenos and not trustable, but would he investigate?

Would the Necrons tell the Culture what they were up to? (find their Core worlds and activate them)

Would the Necron Lord tell the Culture what the Necrons ultimately want? (they want their planets back and where those planets are)

Well... as far as the Inquisitor, he might want to start setting up a joint Ordos Xenos / Mechanicum operation. He'll need their expertise in interpreting what is going on, how to stop it, what the other long term effects are, whether the equipment will have to be destroyed, etc. etc. He also might have to go to a conclave and call in more Inquisitors and the other Ordos in on the case. Regarding the data... at least some people in the Inquisition would demand that it not be destroyed, and that he hand over the data to the Ordo Hereticus and/or Ordo Malleus (depending on the specifics or the severity or the particulars of each case). There would probably be some dissent amongst the group that he has gathered together, assuming it isn't just one Inquisitor and his Acolytes and the people he is employing. He might even have to get Deathwatch involved at some point. Basically, I see an unavoidable spiraling of more and more groups in the Imperium getting involved, as it directly impacts them, and the secret getting more and more difficult to keep (though it certainly wouldn't get anywhere like to the 'lower' echelons of society; it might spread through the upper parts of Imperial control, though).


As far as Necrons.... that depends on the individual Necron Lord, I suppose. Just like it always has. I don't personally know enough to say, based on the patterns for this particular Necron Lord...

[The Glyphstone]

Like Gavinfoxx says, it's highly dependent on the Lord in question, and his Dynasty - the various Lords of a Dynasty will have similar behavioral attitudes and outlooks (even if they are degraded to varying degrees) to each other and to the Phaeron of their Crown World. The more isolationist/xenophobic this particular Lord is, the less he'll be willing to tell the Culture about his intentions for fear they'll try to stop him for some reason. The more ambitious he is, the less he'll say for fear one of his underlings or rivals will take advantage of something they overhear.

[Gavinfoxx]

Thinking about this some...

Generally... peaceful trade is really, really difficult for Necrons. A Necron Lord could intend to do peaceful trade, but then very obviously have a subsystem override that desire at some point later -- ie, the need to harvest others to make more necrons, a sudden paranoia, overwhelming jealousy at something the other group has, impotent hatred, etc.


This could be written as a Necron trying to act in good faith, for a trade they really want to do, but when it comes time to do the trade, there is very obviously a schizophrenic personality override taking place. However, if they set up enough of the trade in the first place... the override might be 'too late' to prevent the trade from happening. It depends on if there is a tiny part of them that sets up a plan a particular way or not; they wouldn't be consciously able to plan against themselves... well, they might be able to, but it'd be freaky...

In fact, I think it might actually be interesting if the Necron Lord tries to set up a trade such that, when he inevitably goes crazy and tries to kill them and disrupt the trade, it still works, and gets enough capability in the hands of either him or them (or both) that he can engineer away some of his insanity... that option leads to hilarity, especially as he tries to imply certain things to The Culture without outright saying it (cause he's crazy, and probably can't really admit the problem fully to himself), and we all know how well Hilarity works!

[Gavinfoxx]

Also, Oldcron drive...

I believe they are going FTL in realspace. I believe they just turn off their most/all of their mass and inertia and do the inertialess drive thing. They have to slow down to turn though. I suppose they could be using hyperdrive/hyperspace. *shrugs*. It seemed like star trek style warp drive, hah..


Anyway, it's notable that in this setting, you don't get exponential technical increases; you get lots of civilizations (including minor civilizations that mostly do their own thing) hitting massive walls of technological understanding, and tech being stagnant for a very, very long time...

[Forum Explorer]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

Thinking about this some...

Generally... peaceful trade is really, really difficult for Necrons. A Necron Lord could intend to do peaceful trade, but then very obviously have a subsystem override that desire at some point later -- ie, the need to harvest others to make more necrons, a sudden paranoia, overwhelming jealousy at something the other group has, impotent hatred, etc.


This could be written as a Necron trying to act in good faith, for a trade they really want to do, but when it comes time to do the trade, there is very obviously a schizophrenic personality override taking place. However, if they set up enough of the trade in the first place... the override might be 'too late' to prevent the trade from happening. It depends on if there is a tiny part of them that sets up a plan a particular way or not; they wouldn't be consciously able to plan against themselves... well, they might be able to, but it'd be freaky...

In fact, I think it might actually be interesting if the Necron Lord tries to set up a trade such that, when he inevitably goes crazy and tries to kill them and disrupt the trade, it still works, and gets enough capability in the hands of either him or them (or both) that he can engineer away some of his insanity... that option leads to hilarity, especially as he tries to imply certain things to The Culture without outright saying it (cause he's crazy, and probably can't really admit the problem fully to himself), and we all know how well Hilarity works!

when have Necrons ever done a peaceful trade? Also what programming?

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm saying they haven't because some programming pops in and makes them go all KILL, even if they would want to and have reason to. It's the only reason I can think of for why they are all 'KILL EVERYTHING', even though there are sentient/sapient individuals that would (for example) greatly benefit from trading with something.

Does that make sense?

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

I'm saying they haven't because some programming pops in and makes them go all KILL, even if they would want to and have reason to. It's the only reason I can think of for why they are all 'KILL EVERYTHING', even though there are sentient/sapient individuals that would (for example) greatly benefit from trading with something.

Does that make sense?

Why do they need hidden programming directives, when it's simpler to just assume they're crazy?

Also, I think you're confusing Oldcrons and Newcrons again. In Newcron fluff, the only ones who are explicitly 'KILL EVERYTHING' are the Destroyer Cults, and possible the Flayed Ones (no one's certain because they can't talk). Modern Necrons, at least as far as the sentient/sapient ones go, run the spectrum from Conquer Everybody to Get Off My Lawn You Darn Kids to Leave Us Alone.

[Gavinfoxx]

The thing is, I was talking to some of my sources, and they maintained that even the Newcrons were generally of the 'KILL EVERYTHING' variety... a large number of people agreed on this topic... that they certainly couldn't do anything like peaceful trading.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

The thing is, I was talking to some of my sources, and they maintained that even the Newcrons were generally of the 'KILL EVERYTHING' variety... a large number of people agreed on this topic... that they certainly couldn't do anything like peaceful trading.

Your sources need to read the Newcron codex again. Page 9, if you're curious, explicitly starts by saying "Some Necron Lords send diplomatic emissaries to other worlds, negotiating for the return of lost territories and artifacts, or cast off into the stars, looking for Tomb Worlds not yet awoken."

It goes on to explain that these Nicecrons are definitely a minority, but they're very much existent. Even among the aggressive and warlike dynasties, the 'Kill everything' ones are described as being a minority of the majority.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, as time goes on, I am getting less and less enthusiastic about those sources... but I still am trying to represent the relevant parts of their viewpoint, when they have something meaningful that I can parse into here...

Maybe it means, 'hey, we are pointing all of these guns at you, give us our territories and artifacts back, or we kill you'?

Or would it say 'threatening' rather then 'negotiating' if it meant that?? Or is this the diplomacy of 'you do this, we will let you live, rather than killing you AND taking these things'??

[jseah]

My internet connection here is... unsatisfactory. I'll try to keep posting, but I may not respond or even be able to read everything.

IoM:
Good, it seems that supporting the current government of the IoM covertly by pointing out threats might be a controllable way to get a wedge to reform it. I wonder how long the IoM might take to lose its xenophobia if the Culture just continue to be helpful.

At least a generation maybe? The Culture can wait that long if they have to.


Necrons:
I like the out-think himself idea. Planning something now. It'll probably be quite heavily modified by the time I manage to fit it in.

Besides, friendly relations with the Necrons pisses off the Eldar, which gives me something to write about for them.

[Gavinfoxx]

Originally Posted by jseah

I wonder how long the IoM might take to lose its xenophobia if the Culture just continue to be helpful.

At least a generation maybe? The Culture can wait that long if they have to.

Longer. Remember an Imperial 'Generation', at least for the Elites, is several hundred years (what with Rejuvenat treatments). Also consider at least ten thousand years of entrenched xenophobia, taught from birth. Also remember that if you are a brain in a jar, you can live to be like 1000 or more (ie, via cybernetic resurrection, or being a Dreadnaught, or if you are a Navigator who is plugged in to your ship...). Also remember the fact that they have Stasis technology, and time spent in the Warp is different than time spent in the real world.

Can they wait 1500 years? 2000? All the time with Tau expanding their empire and taking up more and more of the Eastern planets, with obvious Culturetech? Won't the IoM notice that?? The Imperium would have to enter a new 'Age' for this to change. IE, the current Age is the Age of the Imperium, and it is currently in the Time of Ending. This would have to change, in a way that people notice, on a large scale, for the Imperium to not be Xenophobic.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

Yea, as time goes on, I am getting less and less enthusiastic about those sources... but I still am trying to represent the relevant parts of their viewpoint, when they have something meaningful that I can parse into here...

Maybe it means, 'hey, we are pointing all of these guns at you, give us our territories and artifacts back, or we kill you'?

Or would it say 'threatening' rather then 'negotiating' if it meant that?? Or is this the diplomacy of 'you do this, we will let you live, rather than killing you AND taking these things'??

Treating enemies as honorable foes is one of the other alternatives, so probably not (the page-quote is from a Necron Lord's ultimatum to a Hive World, saying they are trespassing on his land and he will honorably give them one month to evacuate)...I think it's so much of a minority because it requires an unusual set of circumstances - the Necron Lord in question must wake up A) sufficiently intact and sane, B) in command of insufficient troops to pursue a military option, and C) be of the genuine disposition to want to pursue a non-military option. C) is the hardest to achieve, because pacifist Necrons didn't last very long in the War of Heaven. There's also the 'introverted/isolationist' flavor who kill anyone that visits them, but otherwise ignores everyone else while they focus on internal power struggles and rebuilding for centuries.

[Tiki Snakes]

Originally Posted by jseah

Necrons:
I like the out-think himself idea. Planning something now. It'll probably be quite heavily modified by the time I manage to fit it in.

Besides, friendly relations with the Necrons pisses off the Eldar, which gives me something to write about for them.

Remember, the thing about the Eldar is, well take the IoM. They will often work alongside the Eldar because they are clearly less evil than the Orks, Chaos, 'Nids, etc.

But they never trust them. Because they aren't lying when they say you can't trust the Eldar. If the Eldar can concieve of a way for them to advance at the cost of the Culture, they'd do it without blinking. If they found some combination of tricks and misdirections that would result in their empire returning and/or their souls no longer being at risk from Slaanesh but the cost was all of the Imperium and every single Culture citezan (biological or otherwise) writhing in agony at the heart of the Eye of Terror till the end of time...

Well, they've plenty of time to write sad poems about your noble sacrifice while they enjoy being an empire and not being eating by Slaanesh anymore. It's barely even a question.

So, yeah. Easy to underestimate how much the Eldar could provide for you to write about, in theory at least.

[Forum Explorer]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Remember, the thing about the Eldar is, well take the IoM. They will often work alongside the Eldar because they are clearly less evil than the Orks, Chaos, 'Nids, etc.

But they never trust them. Because they aren't lying when they say you can't trust the Eldar. If the Eldar can concieve of a way for them to advance at the cost of the Culture, they'd do it without blinking. If they found some combination of tricks and misdirections that would result in their empire returning and/or their souls no longer being at risk from Slaanesh but the cost was all of the Imperium and every single Culture citezan (biological or otherwise) writhing in agony at the heart of the Eye of Terror till the end of time...

Well, they've plenty of time to write sad poems about your noble sacrifice while they enjoy being an empire and not being eating by Slaanesh anymore. It's barely even a question.

So, yeah. Easy to underestimate how much the Eldar could provide for you to write about, in theory at least.

Pretty much. Eldar priorities is always Eldar first. The only other thing is that they can see the long term so they won't make decisions that are clearly worse for themselves in the long run.

But they'll do things like doom entire planets of the IoM if it means one more Eldar gets to live.

[jseah]

part 7.5 IoM

Spoiler

Week 2-3
We have stuck to our decision to not interfere in IoM matters. IoM inquisitorial mobilization has been detected across multiple star systems concentrating in the areas we have identified in the list of Chaos cells. One of them was accidentally uncovered and destroyed by the Imperial Guard.

Ad Mech personnel have investigated the hijacked machines which indicated no traces of our worms (because there are no detectable traces at the IoM's level of technology).

Nevertheless, we hope to build some trust with the IoM with this dump of our findings of Chaos cells. Or if not trust, then at least aid them and reduce Chaos contaminations in this section of the galaxy although we certainly cannot identify every instance of it.

We may be judged cruel by not attempting to save the Chaos contaminated citizens, but all possible methods involving attempting to apply reload technology across entire IoM worlds, the problems of which are obvious and lengthy enough to not require stating.

part 7.5 Necrons

Spoiler

The Necron Lord has indicated that he will be rebuilding his strength for at least the next year if he is not disturbed. The probable mission of the ship (which he did not elaborate on) is either scout ship or an attempt to contact other Necron worlds.

The Necron Lord has expressed interest in negotiation a transfer of technology but has taken extreme care to not state what sort of transfer he is looking for. We are currently working on the negotiations despite difficulties.

Meanwhile, we have also requested to hear the Necrons' history, taking a guess that a war did occur in the past and that the enemies were the Eldar (Eldar accounts say that the Necrons were their enemy, but perhaps the reverse is not true; or at least the Necrons' version of history might not corroborate this)
We took care not to mention our hypothesis that the Necrons were weapons.

Week 2
Through various hints and roundabout talking, White Devil is now convinced that the Necron Lord is interested in our intelligence engineering knowledge. While there is no conclusive evidence for this, Curiousity Saved the Cat will admit that the Necron Lord does seem to hint at it.

We have likewise stated, rather less circumspectly, our interest in their engineering technologies, apparent action at a distance as well as any possible data on Chaos. We have emphasized our stance towards understanding and containing Chaos.

Why he might do this seems incomprehensible. Nevertheless, the possibility for fruitful exchange of ideas is too good to pass up.

Do the Necrons have any worthy data on Chaos besides their warp null fields?

Would the Eldar even want to know anything the Culture gives them on Chaos if it originates from the Necrons? (I presume the Culture has already given them the IoM data and that Culture and Eldar regularly update each other on Chaos)


What might the Tau react if the Culture offered an exchange of data on Chaos? (I really ought to start all first contacts with that)

Do the Orks have any data on Chaos worth anything at all?


EDIT:
I find it interesting that the Culture might actually be unwittingly playing a role in the 40k verse as a mediator of information. Many sides don't wish to talk to each other, but the Culture is powerful enough to trade in information since the sides have to step warily around them (and therefore have to talk)