The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

[jseah]

Originally Posted by Kinslayer

But then people like Fabius Bile, on Team Chaos would be happily using Construct-Your-Own-Psykers, rather than looting humans from colonies. I would quote the Eldar as being able to do it if it were possible, as well, but they're all born psykers, if not nessecarily strong ones.

I'll note that Team Chaos hasn't acheived the Singularity yet or they'll just overrun everyone. Understanding of intelligence and how it develops might be key, which is one of the major steps towards Singularity. (it is implied you need this since Warp sensitivity seems linked to intelligence; you don't see Chaos-infested rocks except on Daemon worlds)

I mean, there are holes (the major one is the Astronomican, Choir and the Golden Throne), but those can be patched.

Also, you already know why the Eldar don't do it.

Originally Posted by Kinslayer

But the joke is on him, in 40k. Because he'll probably start withdrawing into himself the further he learns, circular logic drawing him in, each secret pointing toward the next, until a daemon bursts from the back of his skull, or he decides that Enuncia is a great plan.

I wouldn't claim all knowledge (if they were true) would be safe.

But that bit was just an observation that when people say "knowledge drives people mad", they assume the "knowledge" part is at fault and don't question whether it is really the "mad" part that is at fault.

[Kinslayer]

Originally Posted by jseah

I'll note that Team Chaos hasn't acheived the Singularity yet or they'll just overrun everyone. Understanding of intelligence and how it develops might be key, which is one of the major steps towards Singularity. (it is implied you need this since Warp sensitivity seems linked to intelligence; you don't see Chaos-infested rocks except on Daemon worlds)

I'm actually curious what (fully) constitues a Singularity, overall. I tried searching for it a bit, but I'm home sick today and not at the best to put effort into things.

Originally Posted by jseah

I mean, there are holes (the major one is the Astronomican, Choir and the Golden Throne), but those can be patched.

But the Astro/Chair don't have any effects on the surrounding RealWorld, so they can't be Warp Rifts... Ah, well.

Originally Posted by jseah

I wouldn't claim all knowledge (if they were true) would be safe.

But that bit was just an observation that when people say "knowledge drives people mad", they assume the "knowledge" part is at fault and don't question whether it is really the "mad" part that is at fault.

Ah. Fair enough, sorry.

Heh. Makes me think, though. There's one way the RT could kill the SC, and the Culture wouldn't expect, or would think it's more folklore, or the agent might just be curious enough to look. Comment to the Navigator that the agent would want to have a "better look at his/her/its face." Cue warp eye instakill when the agent glances at it.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Kinslayer

I'm actually curious what (fully) constitues a Singularity, overall. I tried searching for it a bit, but I'm home sick today and not at the best to put effort into things.



But the Astro/Chair don't have any effects on the surrounding RealWorld, so they can't be Warp Rifts... Ah, well.



Ah. Fair enough, sorry.

Heh. Makes me think, though. There's one way the RT could kill the SC, and the Culture wouldn't expect, or would think it's more folklore, or the agent might just be curious enough to look. Comment to the Navigator that the agent would want to have a "better look at his/her/its face." Cue warp eye instakill when the agent glances at it.

Only if the Navigator is in on the plan, possibly. Older fluff has anyone who looks into the Warp Eye struck dead, and I think Rogue Trader does something similar where it's an automatic attack if you have it uncovered, but other fluff - the Ragnar Saga comes to mind - the eye's deadly properties have to be deliberately triggered by the Navigator, otherwise it's just a small weird-looking third eye.

[jseah]

Originally Posted by Kinslayer

I'm actually curious what (fully) constitues a Singularity, overall. I tried searching for it a bit, but I'm home sick today and not at the best to put effort into things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

Basically, when the study of intelligence leads to improving intelligence, it will feedback and accelerate research into further improving intelligence because the scientists got smarter. And then they get smarter faster and faster, leading to exponential explosion of technology.
That is one of the major requirements.

When we say "Singularity Enabling Technology", what we really mean is a way to manufacture intelligence. Right now, you can consider an economy to have two parts: that of the workers & consumers and that of the capital multipliers on the workers' work.

The ability to manufacture intelligence means that 'work' is now capital. Thus, you only need capital to make more capital and everything else.


The nanobots in the RT arc is merely super-fast manufacturing, but you still need someone to tell the nanobots what to do, where to go and which plan to build. It's just a very powerful piece of capital equipment.
One person with command of the nanobots might be able to manage a production power of a Forge World, but that's about the maximum.

Give them a plan that could build an AI control node and you can have a fully automated network of nodes and nanobots that you can just say "do X" and be assured that steps to acheive it would occur. Drop an AI node on an asteroid and say "make a Lunar" and they'll do the rest.
Now you don't even need people at all. You can dump the nanobots and AI control node in a system and say "help me in this war" and it'll do the rest too.


Note how the last usage example is exactly like siccing a HS on your enemies.

Originally Posted by Kinslayer

Heh. Makes me think, though. There's one way the RT could kill the SC, and the Culture wouldn't expect, or would think it's more folklore, or the agent might just be curious enough to look. Comment to the Navigator that the agent would want to have a "better look at his/her/its face." Cue warp eye instakill when the agent glances at it.

o.O

That... That would actually work. XD

[Gavinfoxx]

I thought the current fluff is 'When a Navigator's 3rd eye gazes onto you, you are instantly struck dead and your soul is annihilated as it is drawn into the warp'.

I think you might also be bodily drawn into the warp as well...

[Gavinfoxx]

If he really wants to say '**** you' to the Culture, he would:

1.) jump to warp.
2.) Have one of his secondary navigators kill the culture operative with third eye.
3.) have his astropath choir transmitting as much intelligence and knowledge as possible of what is going on and the tech
4.) warp travel to the nearest forge world


I suppose it depends on how much of a greedy bastard he is, vs. how much of a patriot he is, vs. how much he respects/fears the power of The Emperor...

[Kinslayer]

Originally Posted by jseah

~Singularty~

But that would mean the Dark Age of Technology was a singularity, in that STC Machines had AI, and produced anything you asked it to, within the technological limits it had. It was also tied to the millions/billions/whatever of AI worker robots around the galaxy.

Originally Posted by jseah

o.O

That... That would actually work. XD

Also a note I just thought of, in regards to the knowledge thing. Did the Mind that scanned Titan also lift all the paper-bound info?

Because if it did, that Mind is now the main corruption threat in all of the Culture. Re; Daemon names, and the Inquisition using mindless servitors, and then killing it off (Probably burning the corpse as well. It's the =I= afterall), after writing accounts about daemons/daemon names.

[Fan]

That thing would be nigh instantly corrupted, the knowledge of ONE daemons true name was enough to drive an Inqusitor instantly omnicidially insane.

One name? A mind wouldn't even blink, but the true contents of the Librarium daemonicum listing hundreds of thousands of daemonic true names?

I pity the thing.

Also, the Navigators 3rd eye actually is an instant kill for anything not entirely made of the warp, anything with a soul basically. Even Chaos Space Marines insta die from it.

[God Imperror]

Originally Posted by Kinslayer

But that would mean the Dark Age of Technology was a singularity, in that STC Machines had AI, and produced anything you asked it to, within the technological limits it had. It was also tied to the millions/billions/whatever of AI worker robots around the galaxy.

Yes the dark age of technology was a singularity.

On the daemon names... Well that's a scary thought.

[Gavinfoxx]

I don't think the DAoT was quite a Singularity... at least as Jseah is definining it; he has some very specific understandings of the implications of a Singularity.

Though, a culture of leisure with an underclass of robots to do all the work for everyone, with lots of sentient AI, and super-technology all over the place...

The thing is, there was variation in the STC's. Some had the 'input raw material, output end product. Some were just collections of blueprints that described how to make something... and apparently, there really wasn't that much improvement of the human mind, and the fact that the technology was lost on such a large scale means, in a very large way, that maybe it wasn't a singularity after all?

Originally Posted by Kinslayer

Because if it did, that Mind is now the main corruption threat in all of the Culture. Re; Daemon names, and the Inquisition using mindless servitors, and then killing it off (Probably burning the corpse as well. It's the =I= afterall), after writing accounts about daemons/daemon names.

Also whichever mind scanned the Ordo Malleus and Ordo Hereticus archives, to boot...

[Selrahc]

That thing would be nigh instantly corrupted, the knowledge of ONE daemons true name was enough to drive an Inqusitor instantly omnicidially insane.

True names get used all the time in battle... One of the most effective weapons in the war against demons. People can just yell out books of the things at the top of their voice in the hope of finding the right one for the daemon you're fighting. They bring the books into battle, with a loudspeaker.

So they're clearly not all that efficacious in driving people to madness.

Also, the Navigators 3rd eye actually is an instant kill for anything not entirely made of the warp, anything with a soul basically. Even Chaos Space Marines insta die from it.

Not in Rogue Trader.

[Kinslayer]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

The thing is, there was variation in the STC's. Some had the 'input raw material, output end product. Some were just collections of blueprints that described how to make something... and apparently, there really wasn't that much improvement of the human mind, and the fact that the technology was lost on such a large scale means, in a very large way, that maybe it wasn't a singularity after all?

Every Machine STC could do all of the above, though. It's only after they were shattered in the wars and torn to pieces that they became rare blueprints and myths. They were able to produce new designs as required, and built AI worker units to replace, or assist, human production.

If the only "real" measure of a technological singularity is that it's impossible to remove, then it's never happened, true.

/shrug?

[Gavinfoxx]

See, I don't think there is really evidence that the true AI controlled molecular forge version of STC's were at every colony that had 'A STC'. I think the molecular forges were at the wealthiest/most supported colonies, and some lower tech fabricators with non AI-based expert systems, maybe with a particular type of single purpose molecular forge, and there were some colonies that just got a database of designs. Well, every colony that got 'a STC' got at least a database of designs, from what I can tell. This would account for all the differing descriptions of what an STC is, and the varying capabilities of things described as STC's.

I think the Rogue Trader RPG does have it as an instakill, hold on... hmmm, not exactly!

I'm just going to quote the rules...

Spoiler

The Lidless Stare
If a Navigator opens his warp eye fully, anyone gazing into its depths will witness the power and mind breaking unreality of the warp. In an instant, they witness the chaos boiling beneath the skin of existence and for many, it is the last thing they ever see.

Novice: The Navigator makes an Opposed Willpower Test with anyone looking into his Warp Eye. Make a single test for the Navigator and compare it to the results of each of his opponents. If the Navigator achieves more degrees of success, the opponent suffers 1d10+ the Navigator’s Willpower bonus in Energy damage. This damage is not reduced by armour or Toughness Bonus. Anyone taking damage from this power is also Stunned for 1 round as they are ripped with agony.

Using this power is taxing and inflicts a level of Fatigue on the Navigator. If the Navigator fails this Test by one degree of failure or more, he suffers two levels of Fatigue.

Adept: As above, however, the damage is increased to 2d10+ (the Navigator’s WP bonus) and the time the victims are Stunned increases to 1d5 rounds. Victims also suffer 1d5 Insanity Points.

Master: As above, with the additional effect that any creature possessing an Intelligence of 20+ suffering damage from this power must make an immediate Difficult (–10) Toughness Test or be slain. If they pass, they suffer 1d10 Insanity points rather than 1d5.

Avoiding a Navigator’s Gaze
The Lidless Stare will affect anyone, friend or foe, that looks into the Navigator’s third eye when this power is activated.
This has an effective range of 15m (reduced to 5m in fog or mist) and has no effect on unliving targets, Untouchables, and daemons or other entities from the Warp. Those forewarned can look away, though even then being within line of sight of a Navigator is dangerous. The power of his eye is persuasive,
and looking away only grants them +30 on their rolls to resist its power. Those who are unaware of the Navigator’s presence gain this bonus as well.

[The Glyphstone]

So it is possible for him to 'shut it off', then? Though that probably just means keeping the lid shut.

[Gavinfoxx]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

So it is possible for him to 'shut it off', then? Though that probably just means keeping the lid shut.

Yes, that is exactly what it means...

[Tiki Snakes]

STC's and Iron Men, using the above to do incredible things and conquor large parts of the galaxy even without psykers or the emperor.

It does sound and feel like it's pretty comparable to a singularity (which is a pretty hazy concept to begin with). In traditional 40k style of course, this particular singularity didn't turn out particularly well for those who initiated it though, and that's apparently why its the Dark Age of Technology rather than the Lost Age of Technology.

Which, as much as it's a classic 40k genre thing, is also not an outcome that is inherantly incompatible with the concept of a singularity as I understand from the wiki page.

Amusingly enough, the GM who runs Deathwatch locally explicitly models the Dark Age of Technology (and certain ships from it) on the Culture. Small world, eh?

Edit: 2d10 + Willpower isn't a guarenteed instant kill, even with it being entirely unsoakable and unblockable, but it's close enough for all intents and purposes to earn the reputation at least. It'd easily be enough to burn the average man out, if the target is particularly tough or lucky though he might just be scraping the survivable bits of the critical hit table. Not counting the toughness test, of course.

Which if nothing else says that if the Rogue Trader is desperate enough to try it as a plan, he's not likely to resort to using a single backup navigator, as he's going to want a big gun on this.

[Gavinfoxx]

A few backup navigators would be enough to do it, maybe? His main one would be needed to, you know, do Navigating things...

[Tiki Snakes]

I think that boils down to the Rogue Trader and/or Head Navigator and their preferred method of doing things. Betraying the Culture seems really to be a pretty desperate move, given their overwhelming control of any situation.

With that in mind, if I was desperate enough to try it anyway, I'd hold back only a single backup navigator (in case the agent takes all of the navigators who attacked him down with him) and hope for the best.

And if they fail but survive I'd have them all publically executed for attacking a valued guest. Which would piss off the navigators guild I'm sure, but they aren't a concern in comparison.

[Fan]

Originally Posted by Selrahc

True names get used all the time in battle... One of the most effective weapons in the war against demons. People can just yell out books of the things at the top of their voice in the hope of finding the right one for the daemon you're fighting. They bring the books into battle, with a loudspeaker.

So they're clearly not all that efficacious in driving people to madness.



Not in Rogue Trader.

Grey Knights do that, in the Novel "Hammer of Daemon's" the Inqusitior goes mad from speaking the name once, whereas the Grey Knight in Quest, Knight Captain Alaric is able to speak it, but he feels a black bile boil in his throat, and his words burn as he speaks it.

That is not how they portray the speaking of a true name in the novella at all.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Fan

Grey Knights do that, in the Novel "Hammer of Daemon's" the Inqusitior goes mad from speaking the name once, whereas the Grey Knight in Quest, Knight Captain Alaric is able to speak it, but he feels a black bile boil in his throat, and his words burn as he speaks it.

That is not how they portray the speaking of a true name in the novella at all.

Inconsistency in 40K stories? Le gasp.

[Fan]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Inconsistency in 40K stories? Le gasp.

If he can cite the stories where they go around chanting them through a loud speaker from the book then sure.

But I've never seen anything remotely like that.

[Selrahc]

Probably mildly indefensible, since I'm basing it on 3ed codex which is ancient.
I seem to remember Dark Heresy bringing up True Names at some point too though... I'll have to look.

[Forum Explorer]

Now that reminds me. Casually speaking the Big 4's names can have some problems of it's own. Nothing huge but it basically sickens everyone who heard it and the person who said it generally has a bad taste or sensation in their mouth.

[Forrestfire]

I could have sworn I also had read stories with the truename-shouting on the battlefield, but now I can't find them at all.

[Fan]

I can provide quotes from the book in question.

[The Glyphstone]

...yet again, Fan, no one is doubting the quotes you're citing. The question is if anyone can find the 'loudspeaker' anecdote...got that lying around anywhere?

[jseah]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

STC's and Iron Men, using the above to do incredible things and conquor large parts of the galaxy even without psykers or the emperor.

It does sound and feel like it's pretty comparable to a singularity (which is a pretty hazy concept to begin with). In traditional 40k style of course, this particular singularity didn't turn out particularly well for those who initiated it though, and that's apparently why its the Dark Age of Technology rather than the Lost Age of Technology.

Actually, this sounds like the STCs were singularity-enabling. I'll take back my claim that nothing singularity-like happened in 40k.

Of course, it begs the question of how exactly the humans managed to destroy the Iron Men if the Iron Men were the singularity and it went insane.

...
Actually, the answer is right there. Instead of a revolt, an organized rebellion against humanity, the Iron Men and AIs just went insane. Instead of building unstoppably huge armies, they just did mostly random things and slaughtered humans nearby.

It probably still wasn't easy to destroy them, but at least it would be possible. Their singularity imploded. Haha.


RE: Daemon True names

Is this a psychic thing? What happens if a blank says it?

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

I suppose it depends on how much of a greedy bastard he is, vs. how much of a patriot he is, vs. how much he respects/fears the power of The Emperor...

It leads to hilarity, so that settles the "what happens next" part of the plan I haven't worked out yet. =D

[Forum Explorer]

Originally Posted by jseah

RE: Daemon True names

Is this a psychic thing? What happens if a blank says it?

A blank? Nothing. It's more of attracting a deamon's attention I believe then any actual 'psychic' thing. But you still need a least some presence in the warp for the deamons to 'hear' you speak.

[jseah]

Originally Posted by Forum Explorer

A blank? Nothing. It's more of attracting a deamon's attention I believe then any actual 'psychic' thing. But you still need a least some presence in the warp for the deamons to 'hear' you speak.

Um, pardon me if this is a stupid question, but how is this a good idea in battle?

You shout all the daemon names over the whole battlefield, attracting countless daemon attention to everyone on your side (because they all hear it). And if you hit the name of a Daemon your currently fighting... it just sounds like an extremely elaborate form of suicide.

[Forum Explorer]

Originally Posted by jseah

Um, pardon me if this is a stupid question, but how is this a good idea in battle?

You shout all the daemon names over the whole battlefield, attracting countless daemon attention to everyone on your side (because they all hear it). And if you hit the name of a Daemon your currently fighting... it just sounds like an extremely elaborate form of suicide.

That's why I doubt that the loudspeaker thing is true. I'm waiting for a citation before I believe it.