The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

[Excession]

A bit late, but on the subject of Ciaphas Cain. If he was somehow to meet the Culture, I believe it would be necessary for him to meet the Culture book's own ultimate war hero: Cheradenine Zakalwe. (see Use of Weapons, as well as cameo in Matter)

I suspect the two would manage, despite wildly different upbringings and outlooks on life, to get on like a planet on fire. It might even involve a planet catching fire. There might be an issue in that Zakalwe's special talent appears to be losing, but doing so in a way that always ends up benefiting the Culture's goals.

[jseah]

I've read a short excerpt about Ciaphas Cain on his first assignment to a "sleepy" artillery regiment and I believe I've caught the tone of the writing.

The problem is, its not a style I can write in. Although that glimpse of his underlying psychology would at least help prevent me from going too far off the rails if I ever use him as a character.

[Selrahc]

Originally Posted by Forum Explorer

A blank? Nothing. It's more of attracting a deamon's attention I believe then any actual 'psychic' thing. But you still need a least some presence in the warp for the deamons to 'hear' you speak.

No.. a Daemon's true name is a word of power. Not a call to battle. Daemons are terrified of those who use their true names against them, and just hearing them spoken weakens a daemon. Rites of binding, controlling, summoning and destroying a daemon are all much more efficacious with the rite. This is spelled out pretty explicitly in the Radicals Handbook.

And in Dark Heresy, and the 3ed Codex, there is no mention of speaking a name driving one instantly to insanity. Indeed, the Radical's Handbook mentions them a lot and doesn't even give out "Insanity Lite" in the form of corruption or insanity points.

I can't find the loud hailer passage, but I think the purpose would be to find the name of the daemon being fought, by the instinctive discomfort of the daemon. Then once the name has been found, start to use it in a more deliberate manner.



Incidentally, there are some paragraphs on psyker machines. It implies that Psyker manifestation *is* genetic in part. The Dark magos who create the weapons mass manufacture psyker brains(specifically through genetic manipulation), then put them in guns.

It also reminds me, that psychic phenomena is not really so poorly understood. The drug spook gives anybody who uses it psychic powers, or enhances psychcic powers already possessed. The imperium has technological psy-scanners, which mimic the powers of telepaths.

[jseah]

Sorry, I don't think I can post today.

I'm running late on my Nanowrimo. =P

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by jseah

Sorry, I don't think I can post today.

I'm running late on my Nanowrimo. =P

[jseah]

Apparently, I have time for one post after all. Sleep is overrated. =D

part 6.5 - RT

Spoiler

After the escape, the Rogue Trader rendezvoused with the three mercenary ships at the target uninhabited star system. After some consideration, he came up with the idea to attempt a raid on a normally warp-inaccessible planet.

The mercenaries protested that they would be unable to follow, and the Rogue Trader asked Aisha Meiro to make weaker copies of the FTL drive for them. Despite not technically having the hyperspace drive construction plans, we agreed to provide it quietly and humour his assumption that the nanobots came with the plans for hyperspace drives.

The four ships, the Rogue Trader's Dauntless class light cruiser, the mercenarys' Sword class frigate, Firestorm frigate and a Lunar cruiser, have set course for the warp-storm hidden system after some negotiation and demonstrations of its capabilities.
The mercenaries have agreed to take the hyperspace drive as pay for the mission and forgo any loot recovered. Despite the Rogue Trader's care to not demonstrate the full capacity of his more capable drive, the mercenaries were sufficiently impressed that they agreed easily to his terms.

The system in question had already been recently surveyed by a Culture GCU and passed over as an Eldar exodite world, which were not to be disturbed by agreement with the Eldar. We had no idea that this world was warp-inaccessible and the implications of warp storms or the more severe warp rifts. Research into this matter is considered of high priority.

Week 2
Once they arrived at the exodite world, the Rogue Trader made preparations to land and recover some Eldar artifacts but never managed to do so.
Six warships dropped out of the Warp at the edge of the system, which was unexpected as we had thought the system was not Warp-navigable and only the Eldar could reach it by teleportation gate.

These ships were immediately identified to be Chaos warships and they were broadcasting scrapcode. Despite precautions and data safety protocols, a minor crisis broke out on Golden Goose preventing its participation in the battle.
The Rogue Trader, although reluctant to engage, was at least willing to try to fulfill the mission Aisha had asked of him. His mercenaries were even more reluctant to engage but were eventually convinced that they held an insurmountable advantage in the tactical FTL speeds.

Order of Battle:
Chaos - Executor class cruiser; Hades Heavy Cruiser; Carnage class cruiser; Daemonship; 2x Iconoclast Destroyer
Rogue Trader - Lunar cruiser; Dauntless class light cruiser; Sword class frigate; Firestorm frigate

You can consider the Rogue Trader to be in de facto command since he pays the mercenaries, despite one of them having a bigger ship than he has. He's also been flying around in hyperspace for weeks so he's had rather longer to think about the tactical implications.

All of them are hyperspace capable. You can more or less assume that they can lap the system before anyone's guns can even reload.
The Culture agent isn't going to contribute tactical advice. She has also been told by the Rogue Trader to assist damage control efforts using the nanobots so his ship will be able to repair damaged or destroyed sections within hours.

How would you fight this battle if you were the Rogue Trader?

What would the exodite Eldar think of the soon-to-occur fireworks show?

EDIT: the Rogue Trader is also having his doubts about the SC agent. He isn't quite as clueless as she thinks he is; asking her to make hyperspace drives was a test.

[Gavinfoxx]

I asked one of my sources about the whole loudspeaker and true name thing, and this is what he had to say...

Spoiler

"in concept- it's probably workable. the idea of a daemon's true name being used to control and bind it is well attested in canon (and it makes summonings and banishings /much/ easier), particular references: the Realms of Chaos books, the Liber Chaotica.

In practice- if he's not on about Grey Knights, then there's a serious risk involved (and likely everyone in the force is going to be mind-wiped/executed anyway), as uttering the name and losing concentration, or with the wrong intentions can strengthen the bugger. And I'd be seriously worried about using loudspeakers, as mispronunciations could also undo all the control they had over the thing, and all it'd take is one bit of feedback at the wrong time...

That said, I think I recognise the action he's on about as from Grey Knights (or one of the books in the series, anyway), and if so, it's one of Ben Counter's. For me, that makes it of dubious canonicity in and of itself.

some people swear by him, I prefer to swear at him..."

[jseah]

Changed Acheron heavy cruiser for Hades Heavy cruiser. Apparently, there has only ever been one Acheron class.

[Gavinfoxx]

Also, it is likely that most of the Chaos scrapcode being poured out is of the 'lesser' variety, ie, just junk code rather than takeover code. Not all of it though, of course...

And one of the main implications of high speed, maneuverability, and the ability to fire and move in a more rapid way than usual is the capability to do particular 'perfect situation' moves.

But, taking a look at the Chaos fleet... it has a Grand Cruiser, a Heavy Cruiser, a Daemonship, a Cruiser, and nowhere near as many escorts as one would expect such a fleet to have. Still, those are big ships, with big shields, and the Rogue Trader doesn't have near as much Lance as he would like for cracking such big ships (the Dauntless, the Firestorm, and the Lunar likely have lance... but only the Lunar likely has port and Starboard Lance; the Dauntless and the Firestorm only have Prow Lances.

He's going to need to use his extra maneuverability to target weak spots and consolidate fire. Generally, with 40k Human ships, you want to Cross the T, so that your broadside macrocannons can all pour fire into (ideally) the rear of a ship, and bring down it's shields with sheer weight of fire. Unfortunately, he might not actually have enough Macrocannon fire to do this, unless whatever got rid of the escorts of the Chaos fleet did so recently, and the fleet is still damaged. Thus, he will probably have to consolidate lance fire, with as many ships as possible targeting the same area of the same ship (again, from astern if possible).

Again, this depends on how maneuverable the hyperdrives are. If the crew can get a feel for their maneuverability, they might be able to stay 'set up' in the perfect situation, dodging out of range before the enemies can fire back. If the crew can't make use of this, or the drives aren't maneuverable enough, they are just going to have to make long sweeping passes to whittle down the shields of the Chaos ships, using their speed and the inability of the Chaos ships to target FTL to keep from getting hit. Also remember that several of the ships are mercenaries, and would not be willing to slave their maneuvering systems to the Rogue Trader's ship for purposes of coordination (if such non astropath ftl coordination can be done, which it presumably can't!). At best, they likely each outline broad strategies to the allies, and each captain, not used to working with each other, tries to follow that strategy as best as they can. Mistakes will be made, but the sheer ability of the ships to decide not to be targeted or it by Chaos fire will give them the breathing room to adapt and figure out what works, what doesn't, and how to communicate with one another and coordinate...

[Tavar]

Wouldn't disrupting the control of a deamon summoned by the opposition be a good thing?

[Gavinfoxx]

Originally Posted by Tavar

Wouldn't disrupting the control of a deamon summoned by the opposition be a good thing?

Uhhh... not necessarily, no. That control might be the only thing keeping the power relatively 'low'. Also, if the act of disrupting control itself is hideously risky... that's something only Grey Knight types (or the particular appropriate type of Radical Inquisitor) can safely consider doing. Other folk should probably just call in an artillery strike or orbital bombardment...

[Selrahc]

If the RT outranges the Chaos ships, everything is simple. Just keep out of range and keep hammering them.
If the Chaos ships outrange the RT, everything is very complicated. The tactical FTL is still an overwhelming advantage, but you need to make actual plans. Keep moving, never be still long enough for them to get a shot off. Keep out of predictable patterns. Getting your own shots off is similarly going to be incredibly difficult, but at least you're aiming at what is basically a stationary target. I'm sure the voidpilot, cogitator sage, rogue trader and ship machine spirit can cobble something together. Best to do some practice runs blowing up asteroids first though...

Given that the mercenaries already have their payment, I would bet at least one of them turns tail at the first sign of a real warfleet.

[Gavinfoxx]

I expect some MAJOR issues with figuring out firing solutions... the people aiming wouldn't be used to the realities of FTL combat; and I expect that since the Chaos ships are very, very, heavy, they are likely to have pretty solid ranged weapons to. At least, the RT should assume this is the case (Grand Cruiser! Heavy Cruiser! AHHH!!).

But they should be able to kludge together something, after enough attempts.

[Forum Explorer]

I actually think the RT would lose this fight. The Frigates would just get swatted out of space in one barrage. (Tactical FTL is only an overwhelming advantage when you can stay in it while firing. The Mercs and the RT wouldn't be skilled enough to actually hit anything doing so. Thus when they dropped out to fire they'd be vulnerable)

The Chaos warfleet has too many cruisers and heavier class ships for the RT to really do enough damage (remember he's in a Trading ship. Sure it has powerful guns but not in comparison to an actual warship.) The Deamonship is annoyingly tough as well. The RT also has less training and morale then the Chaos fleet since his fleet is mostly mercenaries.

[Spamotron]

One X factor is that the barrier between Warpspace and Realspace is likely especially thin here. Daemon manifestation and summoning could be much easier than usual and as noted the RT's forces lack the necessary punch to bring the Chaos ships down quickly potentially giving them enough time to set up a proper summoning. Once it becomes clear to the Chaos forces that A: They can't win this fight conventionally and B: That the RT ships are a truly exceptional prize. They might be willing to risk such a thing. Of course its a roll of the dice summoning a Daemon that is both powerful enough to take out the RT ships and can also be reasoned and bargained with enough to take the RT ships intact and not just eat everyone.

[Selrahc]

Since the enemy movement is easy to plot, the firing solution actually seems more straight forward than I was thinking.

Plot the shot from out of range. Ready weapons to fire. Jump into range for the minimum amount of time necessary to make the shot. Jump out of range again.

Unless the enemy is already firing on the area of space that you shoot from, you won't be hit. And while future sight is a thing that psykers have, it isn't reliable enough to give more than vague impressions, and certainly won't give you perfect, millisecond precise, firing vectors for interstellar combat!

[Tiki Snakes]

Originally Posted by Selrahc

Since the enemy movement is easy to plot, the firing solution actually seems more straight forward than I was thinking.

Plot the shot from out of range. Ready weapons to fire. Jump into range for the minimum amount of time necessary to make the shot. Jump out of range again.

Unless the enemy is already firing on the area of space that you shoot from, you won't be hit. And while future sight is a thing that psykers have, it isn't reliable enough to give more than vague impressions, and certainly won't give you perfect, millisecond precise, firing vectors for interstellar combat!

Not when it's a Khorn related fleet, that's for sure.

[Gavinfoxx]

A Dauntless Light Cruiser is decidedly not a 'Trading Ship'. At most, it might have had a particular type of bay added, which (depending), may or may not actually slightly lower the maneuverability. Many Rogue Trader ships are meant for exploration, ship-to-ship combat, or things other than 'trading'.

And I agree, he might have to decide to preplot the firing solution under the assumption that they are in the 'perfect' spot to fire, and then just maneuver to that spot, shoot, and get the heck out... that is, if they think to do that. They might have to miss a few times to figure out the details of what works and what doesn't.

Also, remember... there already is a Daemon in the area; a Daemonship, in fact. This is a ship that is largely possessed by at least one, and likely several, daemons...

[The Glyphstone]

Which would probably make it the most serious threat, despite it being smaller than the Grand Cruiser. If the demon(s) possessing it are sufficiently powerful, they might be able to hit the Rogue Trader even with his speed via daemonic abilities; it'll be a Khornate demon in charge, attuned to warfare and combat, which might give it an edge in supernaturally knowing where/when to shoot to hurt its enemy. More instinctive than using a psyker to see the future, but a similar effect.

[Fan]

That, and then there's the telepathic assaults coming from the daemon, outside of warp space, it's unlikely that the gellar fields will be up to stop them, especially with all this new hyperspace stuff.

[Gavinfoxx]

Originally Posted by Fan

That, and then there's the telepathic assaults coming from the daemon, outside of warp space, it's unlikely that the gellar fields will be up to stop them, especially with all this new hyperspace stuff.

They might be up -- if the RT remembers to keep his distance! After all, psychic abilities and warp disruptions are more powerful the closer you are to the entity that created them, or to a particular area of space that centers on the distortion and power... if the RT can, generally, steer clear of that... he's good.

[Fan]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

They might be up -- if the RT remembers to keep his distance! After all, psychic abilities and warp disruptions are more powerful the closer you are to the entity that created them, or to a particular area of space that centers on the distortion and power... if the RT can, generally, steer clear of that... he's good.

But will he know to? Daemonships aren't exactly common, or talked about.

That's the downside of the IOM's dogma, they don't exactly.. tell you much about Chaos.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, Chaos ships aren't the type of ship that you generally... you know... close to melee, assault, and try to take as a prize. They are more the ships you annihilate from as far as possible, with extreme prejudice.

Given the choice, a sane RT will probably prefer to, you know. Fire from maximum effective range and just annihilate the things with sheer weight of fire. Every RT who does even a little bit of space combat will generally know that it is best to stay behind a ship and pump fire into it without being able to be shot at (well, shot at much) and that if you are given the choice, it's smartest to do that...

The fact that he can treat this fight like, well, a fight between a slow bomber and a space superiority small craft (void or aeronatica, whatever), wouldn't be lost on the RT. He'd have an equivalent for getting into the right frame of mind; what matters if he manages to make the mental leap or not... and if so, can his skill in navigation, that of his crew / helmsman, and the people in charge of targeting adapt to this reality?

[Fan]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

Well, Chaos ships aren't the type of ship that you generally... you know... close to melee, assault, and try to take as a prize. They are more the ships you annihilate from as far as possible, with extreme prejudice.

Given the choice, a sane RT will probably prefer to, you know. Fire from maximum effective range and just annihilate the things with sheer weight of fire. Every RT who does even a little bit of space combat will generally know that it is best to stay behind a ship and pump fire into it without being able to be shot at (well, shot at much) and that if you are given the choice, it's smartest to do that...

The fact that he can treat this fight like, well, a fight between a slow bomber and a space superiority small craft (void or aeronatica, whatever), wouldn't be lost on the RT. He'd have an equivalent for getting into the right frame of mind; what matters if he manages to make the mental leap or not... and if so, can his skill in navigation, that of his crew / helmsman, and the people in charge of targeting adapt to this reality?

And if they pause for the few moments to allow the lance banks to fire a full barrage that leaves them open not only to teleport attacks from the more well equipped ship, but also to telepathic attacks.

[The Glyphstone]

I wouldn't rely on any telepathic attacks from a Khornate-driven Daemonship as being a game-changer, really. They'll be unpleasant, and a weapon to consider, but Khornates are the weakest of the four primary factions in terms of offensive psychic ability - they tend far more strongly towards 'buffing' and anti-psychic defenses. Their attacks are also much more likely to take the form of inciting bloodlust and aggressiveness (not that this should be underestimated) than mind control, catatonia, or outright insanity the way daemons of another faction might.

[Gavinfoxx]

Originally Posted by Fan

And if they pause for the few moments to allow the lance banks to fire a full barrage that leaves them open not only to teleport attacks from the more well equipped ship, but also to telepathic attacks.

So maybe they DO actually do a 'let's pull back out of range, pre-calculate the firing solution and the places we need to be and the maneuvers needed to get there, and do it in lockstep', and lock that in and do everything pre-programmed sort of way. I dunno. And I don't think that Chaos ships can react that quickly from long-range fire from a bunch of ships. Remember, Ship-based Teleportarium (and equivalent things for teleporting assaults onto a ship) are short ranged!

You should also remember that Khornate ships will primarily focus on weapon-based attacks, in general, rather than 'fancy' stuff.

[Forum Explorer]

Originally Posted by Fan

And if they pause for the few moments to allow the lance banks to fire a full barrage that leaves them open not only to teleport attacks from the more well equipped ship, but also to telepathic attacks.

Those are short ranged attacks.

No the real problem is that the Chaos fleet will quickly move to cover each other's rear arcs. Then the RT is pretty much boned. He can't trade blows with ships that out weigh him by this much. The Chaos fleet will also repair itself faster then the RT's fleet. Plus they're in a warp rift. If the RT's Gellar Fields go down his ship is pretty much instantly lost.


@Gavin:

Good point let me correct myself. It will be less well armed then an identically classed warship, though it may possess Arceotech surprises instead.

[Fan]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

So maybe they DO actually do a 'let's pull back out of range, pre-calculate the firing solution and the places we need to be and the maneuvers needed to get there, and do it in lockstep', and lock that in and do everything pre-programmed sort of way. I dunno. And I don't think that Chaos ships can react that quickly from long-range fire from a bunch of ships. Remember, Ship-based Teleportarium (and equivalent things for teleporting assaults onto a ship) are short ranged!

You should also remember that Khornate ships will primarily focus on weapon-based attacks, in general, rather than 'fancy' stuff.

Again, real space speed for the Chaos Ships should be just about as good as the RT's, as is their weaponry but with future sight, and they have more weapons capable of filling more of an area of space.

Given the amount of lance fire they can put out, I'd say they could at least get a tag in, and the whole pre programmed thing required practice, there will be **** ups in this. 100%. And if the main RT ship gets tagged with a lance? It's gonna punch straight through, and that's.. gonna hurt the chances of his gellar fields staying up.

Operating on a scale you've never touched tends to be that way.

[The Glyphstone]

Lances aren't exactly spam-weapons the way macrobatteries are - they're the 'two' of the 'one-two punch' with macrocannons battering down void shields and lances hitting the ship's gooey insides. They do come in clusters and batteries of their own, but they're still precision weapons by 40K standards.

If the Khornate fleet thinks to take up a defensive formation covering each other's rear arcs, the RT is going to have a much harder time...but we're talking Khorne-worshippers here, the first few hours of the battle are going to be the RT leading them around in circles by the nose as they strain to be the first into combat range. Khorne's probably the only faction where its average Named Daemon is smarter than its average mortal servant.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea... I would not see Khornate ships staying in a defensive circle to cover each other's rear arcs. That might be the smart thing to do, but it certainly doesn't fit the behavior of Khornate bloodlust! Frankly Fan and FE, I think The Glyph has the right of it -- the RT and his fleet will mess up, but they will have a lot of extra chances to get it right, especially because Khornate ships will definitely be somewhat predictable in their behavior!

And no, the Real Space speed of the RT ship is way better than the Chaos ships. Because his realspace speed is using the hyperdrive! Or warp drive. Or whatever the hell the drive is. The point is, it is a situation where the ship can still do all of its stuff.