Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

[Amechra]

Ah, I missed that.

I might complain through PMs in a bit, just cause I disagree on some of those counts (some of those criteria are a bit arbitrary), but I won't say anything more on this thread.

[123456789blaaa]

Is artificer really that great for RMM? Losing your craft reserve is a far bigger penalty than anything you gain by going into RMM (IMO).

[Dusk Eclipse]

As long as you get the drain essense class feature you can spend some downtime to re-stock your craft reserve.

[Venger]

Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa

Is artificer really that great for RMM? Losing your craft reserve is a far bigger penalty than anything you gain by going into RMM (IMO).

you still keep retain essence! who cares about your craft reserve? you have all the xp you want for crafting now. and you don't pay either of the darn feat taxes to get into the class, getting them both as bonus feats. plus, you get trapfinding, so you can actually use the otherwise worthless search and DD that the SI gives you as class skills.

but if you're using your party's 8/10 casting prc as a trapmonkey, you're just plain doing it wrong. a wand of summon monster 1 only costs 750gp. put the monkey back in trapmonkey

[rockdeworld]

Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles

Can there be a "shooting the moon" option in IC contests?

It probably shouldn't be, or else there'll be 6 more builds to be judged in each competition, all trying to duplicate the psionic sandwich.

[Venger]

Originally Posted by rockdeworld

It probably shouldn't be, or else there'll be 6 more builds to be judged in each competition, all trying to duplicate the psionic sandwich.

there could be a separate contest for it though, kinda like how zinc saucier says "build an x with no levels in x" this could be the "build x with no reason to have levels in x"

the question: what to call it?

rusty roundsman?
beryllium butcher?

[rockdeworld]

Originally Posted by Venger

<snip> to avoid another green star adept <snip>

This made me go back and read GSA. It opened my eyes, since I originally thought ICOC was about being given a terrible class and making the most powerful build possible with it, and had only slightly started to overcome that. It also confirmed everything I thought during character creation:
-make the judges think you want the SI
-answer the question "why am I playing this instead of a warforged"
-providing interesting fluff makes it a your build more attractive to the judges and makes them more likely to score your build higher
-go back and read what previous winners' builds looked like in order to get an idea for what yours should look like.
-even if you use the SI really well, the judges will probably grade Power on an absolute scale from tier-5 fighter to tier-0 Batman.
-different judges will probably give different ratings and use different criteria for getting those ratings.

Edit: And a few things I didn't:
-to quote Schneeky (and paraphrase the rest of the judges in that round), "this is, at the heart, a Practical Optimization challenge." To quote The_Humanity, "the concept is to make a playable character that if you brought to a playing table, everyone would think it was a fresh, unique, flavorful, powerful character." Ergo it can't/shouldn't use so much cheese/power that it can't be played in a regular game.
-Similar to how fluff makes a judge predisposed to like your build, making them figure out the crunch rather than showing them (eg. how you get the stats/save DCs that you do) will probably make them predisposed to dislike it.
-if you do something unoriginal, don't emphasize it. Emphasize the original parts, and just mention the unoriginal parts that add power.

I recommend the last 5 pages of that thread (minus the last one) to any other newcomers to ICOC, as it goes into a lot of things that aren't fully addressed in the OP. I think I myself didn't completely do all of that, and I think it's already reflected in my first score, so I'll be interested to see how my build does with the other judges.

Edit: Grammar. And:

Originally Posted by Venger

the question: what to call it?

How about "The Iron Chef Sandwich Challenge"?

[Piggy Knowles]

Originally Posted by Venger

there could be a separate contest for it though, kinda like how zinc saucier says "build an x with no levels in x" this could be the "build x with no reason to have levels in x"

the question: what to call it?

rusty roundsman?
beryllium butcher?

I was being tongue in cheek - it's a neat idea, but I don't know that it would actually be that fun if it was a whole contest just dedicated to that. Still, I like the idea of shooting the moon with a build like that, and Amechra's idea was a fun one. It's the kind of thing I might submit out of pure cheekiness.

Anyhow... scoring table!

Final(?) Tallies after One Judge Before Disputes

Entry	Place	Total	Average
Kiryu	GOLD	17.6	4.4
Father Aldwin	SILVER	16.75	4.19
AM-1468	BRONZE	16.25	4.06
Hardy	Fourth	14.25	3.56
Hezekiah	Fifth	14	3.5
Kilroy	Sixth	11.15	2.79
Gregor Samsa	Seventh	10.5	2.63

[Amphetryon]

Questions from Samsa:

Originally Posted by Samsa

Originality: 3.75, Interesting choice a non-rouge changeling

Power: 3, Disappointing but better then expected

Elegance: 2, The classes don't fit well

Secret Ingredient: 1.75, Secret Ingredient seems stale and just thrown it

Power:
Why did Samsa receive a 3 in power despite being one of only 3 dishes to attain 9th level spells? Extend change doubles the duration on polymorph spells, including shapechange if used to assume one of his favored shapes.

Elegance:
Why does a changeling wizard, with dual focus on trans/illus specializing in polymorph spells taking master transmogrifist and then renegade mastermaker to change his shape further and archmage to bolster earlier abilities not fit together?

SI:
Being of the construct type allows Samsa to alter self, polymorph, and shapechange into monsters of the construct type, impossible to do for non-construct casters. The extraordinary and supernatural abilities of inevitables or golems are far from negligible.

And from Hezekiah:

Originally Posted by Hezekiah

Just a few quick questions/comments for our first judge:

-Monk wasn't just tacked on for Improved Unarmed Strike, but also the Decisive Strike ACF. These two coupled with Dragonmark Fist comprise Hezekiah's main schtick.
-The ninth level of Wu Jen was delayed particularly to snag Spell Secret for Extended Time Stops, instead of squandering it on a fifth-level spell. It seemed a very elegant use of an otherwise lackluster class feature, at least to this chef.
-Extended Time Stop earns some power points, but really serves as the capstone of the build. There is no commentary about the build's primary ability to mix spellcasting with melee in ways that a straight wu-jen could not, especially once the main trick of Giant Size+Body Outside Body+Decisive Strike+Dragonmark Fist comes online at level 15. This is particularly interesting because the criteria calls out buffing and combat prowess in Vknight's power criteria.

[Mishkov]

I didn't really get around to going through the builds until today, but wow there are some cool gish style builds here. I'm impressed with AM-1468 for making use of the shadowcaster effectively in a gish build and use of wu jen on Hezekiah. I though that Samsa was awesome too but I have a soft spot for changelings.

[Piggy Knowles]

Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa

Is artificer really that great for RMM? Losing your craft reserve is a far bigger penalty than anything you gain by going into RMM (IMO).

You get all the qualifying feats, and once Construct Exemplar kicks in you can use all of those incredible construct-only infusions. And, as has been mentioned, Craft Reserve is way less of a big deal than Retain Essence.

[123456789blaaa]

Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles

You get all the qualifying feats, and once Construct Exemplar kicks in you can use all of those incredible construct-only infusions. And, as has been mentioned, Craft Reserve is way less of a big deal than Retain Essence.

I accept defeat.

[OMG PONIES]

I'm thankful for the speed of our first judge [topical!] but I'm also curious to see if any other judges are preparing to weigh in.

[123456789blaaa]

AM-1468's entry states that:

Self-repair and supporting construction both add two healing abilities that the build otherwise lacks,

But Self-repair requires spells or infusions, not mysteries. Am I missing something?

[Piggy Knowles]

Mysteries count as either spells, SLAs or supernatural abilities, depending on the mystery and the shadowcaster's level. Typically the "highest" paths are all considered spells, barring things like Favored Mystery.

Mysteries are weird.

[123456789blaaa]

Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles

Mysteries count as either spells, SLAs or supernatural abilities, depending on the mystery and the shadowcaster's level. Typically the "highest" paths are all considered spells, barring things like Favored Mystery.

Mysteries are weird.

My copy of TOM says :

you cast them as though they were arcane spells

later the books says:

Your master mysteries now function as arcane spells

They're still mysteries though aren't they?

[Piggy Knowles]

Sure, they're still mysteries, but they function as spells (and even have a spell level). I guess it's a DM call, but I'd personally allow it - just like I'd allow the Quicken Spell-like Ability feat to work on a mystery when it functions as an SLA.

[Piggy Knowles]

Hate to double post but... man, all the way down to page four! Any judges still working? And any clues on the next ingredient?

[Amphetryon]

Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles

Hate to double post but... man, all the way down to page four! Any judges still working? And any clues on the next ingredient?

It's from a Complete, and does not advance spellcasting.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

It's from a Complete, and does not advance spellcasting.

Gee, that narrows it down.

[Amphetryon]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

Gee, that narrows it down.

Sorry, TMI?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

Sorry, TMI?

Nah, I'm just bitter that you obviously didn't take my suggestion, since its from MotP.

[Piggy Knowles]

It doesn't advance casting? I always get paranoid when you use overly precise phrasing, Amph - it makes me assume shenanigans! Now I am expecting either a psionic class, or a class that grants casting but doesn't advance it. Which is a shame, because neither of those are Eye of Gruumsh.

[Venger]

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

It's from a Complete, and does not advance spellcasting.

awwww yeah

we're gonna be postin' in a mountebank thread next week.

[Amechra]

How the judges coming along?

Seriously, this contest might need to get extended...

[OMG PONIES]

It's been mighty quiet around these parts; thinking we may have a one-judger on our hands.

[Amphetryon]

Originally Posted by OMG PONIES

It's been mighty quiet around these parts; thinking we may have a one-judger on our hands.

Could be, but they've still got a little time. Holiday season and the looming end of the fall semester (for a lot of folks) make this time of year fairly crazy.

[Darrin]

Originally Posted by OMG PONIES

It's been mighty quiet around these parts; thinking we may have a one-judger on our hands.

Not quite.

Judging criteria: I've never done this before, so I don't have any yet. I expect I will probably screw some things up, and odds are good you'll disagree with me. I'm kinda going with "Start at 3.0, and then add/subtract from there", but there's probably going to be a bit of eyeballing and pulling-things-out-of-my-*bleep*.


AM-1468: 17

Spoiler

Originality: 4.5
Shadowcaster was unexpected (+1.0). Soul Eater was expected... in fact, I'm surprised no one else used it. Pairing up Flicker with Sun School is brilliant (+0.5), I hadn't seen that before.

Power: 4.5
While this build does get Master Mysteries, this isn't the same as 9th level spells. Of the three Master Mysteries you chose, two are [mind-affecting], which limits their usefulness, and the third (Truth Revealed) is the equivalent of a spell that can be cast by a 9th level cleric. I'm not sure Soul Puppet (dominate monster) was worth passing up Shadow Time (time stop), but then again, the duration on Soul Puppet essentially turns you into a minionmancer. Overall, I'd say your Master Mysteries are worth half a point (+0.5). Soul Eater gives you negative levels on an iterative attack, which is *nasty* (+1.0). Unfortunately, your BAB falls somewhere between wizard/rogue, which is somewhat disappointing in what appears to be a shadowcaster-gish build (-0.5). Snap Kick helps here, but you've got some issues with feats/abilities that require unarmed strikes but don't work with your battle fist (Flurry, Snap Kick, two-thirds of Sun School). Poisonmaking I'm ambivalent on, since it usually relies on WBL and a lot of DM interpretation to keep it balanced. You listed the Invisible Fist ACF in the build but never mention how it's used in the User Manual. However, it meshes nicely with your stealth abilities, you've got Darkstalker in there, and for your defensive/offensive abilities, I'll give you another half-point (+0.5).

Elegance: 3.5
Interesting backstory (+0.5), although it doesn't explain the Sleeping Tiger Monk or the Soul Eater. Soul Eater is a bit of a blatant dip, you go in for the Energy Drain and aren't interested in anything else there. But it's something I would do, so I don't feel like penalizing you for it. Overall, I like how you've made a shadowcaster gish here, and although it may be a little weak in melee, you make up for it with how you integrate your mysteries with the rest of your class abilities.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 4.5
You use the spellcasting progression to get Master Mysteries, which isn't quite the same as 9th level spells but still the best a Shadowcaster can hope for (+0.5). The Battlefist is an integral part of your build, and adding Spell Storing lets you combine it with your mysteries/poisonmaking/etc. (+0.5). I'm not entirely sure how your SLAs and SUs work with Self-Repair, but at least some of your mysteries count as arcane spells. You don't have repair spells for Supporting Construction, but you do mention UMDing wands of repair. Everything else, you use: Damage Reduction, Embed Component for Essense of the Scout, Construct Exemplar for Soul Eater (+0.5).

Kilroy: 11

Spoiler

Originality: 2.5
A Human Paragon that wants to become... a non-human? I can see you're building on a crafting theme, which sort of works with Renegade Mastermaker, but I'm not sure the Cyre Scout really fits. I have the feeling you might have been better off with Artificer 7/Human Paragon 3.While I certainly wasn't expecting Human Paragon 3/Cyre Scout 7, it's a bit klunky (-0.5).

Power: 2.5
You spend most of your career buffing Int and crafting stuff, hoping and praying nothing stronger than a housecat decides to attack you. Your Int score and crafting bonus are truly impressive (+1.0), but the focus on crafting makes your usefulness in melee somewhat questionable. Your spellcasting is disappointing... you waste two +1 Caster Levels from Human Paragon before you get any spellcasting, and four of your eight +1 Caster Levels from Renegade Mastermaker go to waste because there's no spell progression beyond Cyre Scout 10, leaving you with a hodgepodge of mediocre infusions (-0.5). You eventually get some very neat crafting tricks, such as standard-action fabricate and major creation, but outside of that I'm not sure the rest of the party is going to enjoy waiting around while you craft things. Unless Kilroy was in a party of Warforged wandering around the Mournland, then I'm tempted to imagine the party would spend most of their time ignoring him or trying to get him killed in the hopes that he'd be replaced with a new character that could contribute more to the party (-1.0).

Elegance: 2.0
The coding theme is cute, but doesn't provide any meaningful backstory or explain much about the character (-0.5). You take Human Paragon before you can cast anything, and I don't see why Cyre Scout is preferable to Artificer (-0.5). You finish off with Cyre Scout 7, but unless I missed something, your Blindsense Mark only gives you blindsense, not blindsight.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 4.0
You do wind up using pretty much all of the Renegade Mastermaker class features (+1.0), particularly Craft Master (+0.5), which is a bit unexpected. My only gripe, mentioned previously, is four of your +1 Caster Levels go to waste (-0.5).

Hardy: 14

Spoiler

Originality: 3
Hmm... a cleric/psywar dual caster? Okay, that's a little unusual (+0.5), but Renegade Mastermaker comes in pretty late, so he spends most of his career as a rather weak psychic theurge (-0.5). I'll call it a wash.

Power: 3.5
You succumbed to the Urge to Theurge, and spend your first 10 levels as a weak Cleric and an even weaker PsyWar (-1.0). You said the reason you went into psionics was to get some form of Pounce... but then didn't get dimension hop (Mantled PsyWar can get the Freedom Mantle) or hustle. However... you've already started as a Cleric, so Travel Devotion is kind of low-hanging fruit right there. And there's even a suitable Eberron deity with both Artifice and Travel domains: The Traveler aspect of the Dark Six. A Cleric 10/Renegade Mastermaker 10 might have been a much stronger build (and even gets 9th level spells). That being said... when the build finally starts to come together around level 11 and 12, yes, you're more of a force to be reckoned with in melee (+0.5). DMM Persisted Divine Powah! and Righteous Might come in late, but kick things up a few notches (+1.0).

Elegance: 3.5

You've got a solid backstory that ties well into the build, and makes the reasons to go into Renegade Mastermaker compelling (+1.0). Theurge is a bit clunky, and then you abandon your manifester development almost entirely for the last half of the build (-0.5).

Use of Secret Ingredient: 4

You make use of *most* the secret ingredient. I was going to say you didn't make use of Supporting Construction, but you get a few repair spells from the Warforged domain. So you don't mention them, but they are there to be used if need be. No mention is made of Embed Component or what components/grafts you would add, but that's more of a "suggested equipment" thing. Overall, I'll give you a full point here. (+1.0).

Hezekiah: 14

Spoiler

Originality: 3.5
Wu-Jen entry, with a dash of Monk... not entirely expected (+0.5). Another entry selected the Mark of Making, but I don't feel like that's really worth a penalty.

Power: 4.5
9th level spells, giant size + body outside body abuse, as well as extended time stop abuse... impressive, so let's just call that max score and work down from there (+2.0). Rules nitpick: although you are allowed to treat your battlefist as both a manufactured and natural attack, it still counts as a "slam" attack, not an "unarmed strike". Thus, you can't use it in with Dragonmark Fist or Decisive Strike (-0.5). Granted, I know most DMs would handwave that and let you use it as an unarmed strike, but that would still be a houserule. The other rules nitpick I have is your contention that your duplicates from body outside body can use their spells to fuel Self Repair... I find this extremely dubious, although by RAW I can't find anything that explicitly says they don't have spells, just that they can't cast/complete/trigger them. Duplicating dragonmarks I think you may be in the clear, and it's a minor class feature, so instead of a penalty I'm just going to glare at you menacingly (+/- 0.0).

Elegance: 1.5
You don't mention where Power Attack came from, I assume from the Overwhelming Attack variant fighting style in UA, but that wasn't mentioned in your sources (-0.5). There's several feats/class features that depend on a DM houseruling your battlefist counts as an unarmed strike rather than a slam, which appears to be a good chunk of the 232 damage you're claiming (-1.0).

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 4.5
You use *everything* in the class description (+1.0), and most of it is legal. I'm not quite sure you've got a compelling argument that going this route is better than Wu Jen 20, but you finish off very nicely with a team of colossal magic megazords dishing out megadamage with their fists (+0.5).

Father Aldwin: 14

Spoiler

Originality: 2.5
Human cleric, the second easiest entry (-1.0), although Church Inquisitor is a bit of a twist to give it a unique flavor. (+0.5).

Power: 5
9th level Clericzilla spells + DMM Persist + DMM Quicken = Tier 1, no crying, no apologies. Adding the Church Inquisitor levels adds even more bells and whistles than a standard Cleric 20 chassis. Just... here, take 'em: max points (+2.0).

Elegance: 3.5
The backstory was compelling, but I was disappointed that it didn't mesh well with a traditional D&D setting. I'm a little disappointed you said the "Sweet Spot" is level 20, which sounds like a cop-out. The dip into Contemplative to add shapechange (from a *Dragonlance* domain, no less) is begging for a deduction for outright cheese... but it's something I would do, so no penalty. I love the notes on Adaptations and Extra-Cheese Options, and you get an entire point (+1.0) for the balls-out audacity to suggest something as awesometastic as "Dragonborn Incarnate Construct Saint Warforged", but I'm taking half of it away for not using it in the actual build (-0.5).

Use of Secret Ingredient: 3
You're a little thin on explaining how you integrate the Renegate Mastermaker's class abilities into your Mecha-Clericzilla (particularly how the battle fist is supposed to work with shapechange), but it looks like you can use most of it, and finish off with Adamantine Body (+0.5). You don't mention how you use your battle fist or combine it with your spells, and no mention of any embedded component(s), other than the rather dodgy Blessed Bandages in the Extra-Cheese section (-0.5).

Kiryu: 10.5

Spoiler

Originality: 3.5
*Two* gishes in one! (Sorta.) And Darfellen, the bitey whale-people! We don't see them too often (+0.5). And not just bitey, but a firebreathing whale! Presumably, the bite attack was going to be part of your build, but then you... never... really... mention it.

Power: 3.0
I am not so comfortable with the reliance on the Drake Helm. This assumes the DM will allow you to craft it, and will be nice enough to make sure Syberis shards are plentiful enough that you'll get the spells you want/need (-0.5). You do get BAB +16 on a gish (+1.0), but 5th level Suel Arcanamach casting is no substitute for 9th level spells (-0.5).

Elegance: 2
Your backstory is nice enough, but finding the Drake Helm appears to be more important than getting into Renegade Mastermaker (-0.5). The gishing is a bit klunky, as you start out with Duskblade 6 and abandon it for Suel Arcanamach... but then, I guess that's how Suel Arcanamach is supposed to work. My biggest concern is the strongest parts of your build (Drake Helm, Breath Weapon) don't have much to do with Renegade Mastermaker (-0.5).

Use of Secret Ingredient: 2
The only class feature you mention directly is the battle fist. Suel Arcanamachs can get the repair damage spells, but you didn't take them, so no love for "Supporting Construction" other than scrolls/wands. Nothing mentioned about embedded component(s). Overall, I would have liked to see Renegade Mastermaker be a little more integral to the build (-1.0).

Gregor Samsa: 8.5

Spoiler

Originality: 2.5
Easiest entry (-1.0), but not human (+0.5). But not... changeling? I'm confused.

Power: 4.5
You get 9th level spells, so Tier 1 casting, a little detour into Master Transmogrifist, and then topping off with Archmage, which is all standard "Wizards Win D&D" stuff (+2.0). Dual Specialization, so, okay, that still leaves shadow evocations, and transmutation is pretty good and ripping heads off, and then... WTF, we're changing into a beholder?!? I thought we were trying to turn into a robot? Well, at least it's a Beholder with a robot arm, I suppose, although you don't really discuss how the battle fist works in any of your non-humanoid forms (-0.5). If we're going to cheese out with Assume Supernatural Ability, I think I'd take the 10 different Eye Rays (Su) than the Antimagic Cone (Su), but... diff'rent strokes, I suppose.

Elegance: 1
It looks like a lot of work went into the backstory... but it only covers the first 5 levels of the build, and then completely fails to explain why Samsa would go into Renegade Mastermaker. Ok, I sorta get the revenge angle... but not why Renegade Mastermaker would be taken over any other wizard PrC. No "sweet spot" mentioned, advice is minimal and doesn't involve anything from the secret ingredient.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 0.5
You never even mention any of the Renegade Mastermaker class abilities outside of the build levels, not even the battle fist. Even more troubling, when you get Construct Exemplar, you get a bonus Warforged feat, but either didn't take it or forgot to specify what it was. Your primary battle tactic appears to be turn into a beholder to shut down hostiles with an AMF, but... none of that really involves Renegade Mastermaker.

[TerrickTerran]

Cool, more judging. For your first time, Darrin, I think you did really well.

[Piggy Knowles]

Awesome, more judges! I was pretty worried this would be a one-judger. Darrin, I think you did a great job - I always look for concrete feedback on builds, and you gave that in spades.

Re: Hardy, I assume his UoSI score was 4? You didn't give a final tally, but the only +/- was a +1 at the end. I've gone ahead and assumed it was a 4 for the tally:

Final(?) Tallies after Two Judges Before Disputes

Entry	Place	Total	Average
AM-1468	GOLD	33.25	4.16
Father Aldwin	SILVER	30.75	3.84
Hardy	BRONZE	28.25	3.53
Kiryu	Fourth	28.1	3.51
Hezekiah	Fifth	28	3.5
Kilroy	Sixth	22.15	2.77
Gregor Samsa	Seventh	19	2.38

By the way, re: eyeballing - I've never seen a judge who doesn't eyeball at least a little bit, myself included. It's just too hard to neatly encapsulate everything into tidy little increments of +/- 0.5. That said, OMG PONIES' scoring he did for Hand of the Winged Master came the closest to an objective metric that I've seen any judge use.