The Cider episode is bad because of it's complete lack of understanding of economics and how flagrant it is in that ignorance. I could almost forgive it because of it's great song and so forth but then AJ has that smug bit about already knowing the lesson at the end and I just want to punch her in the face.
They should have just driven a harder bargain with the Flim Flam brothers to begin with, and made bank. Instead...
Then again, backstabbing from Flim Flam Brothers, and it's a kid show since children (Not us) can't grasp the advanced subject like economics! I think Duck Tales will hold on to the title as a show that is able to teaching kids about economics (Like Inflation caused by excessive coins).
__________________
Pony Minecraft Avatar
Rest in Peace:
Spoiler
Miko Miyazaki, Thanh, Durkon- Order of the Stick
Krunch- Looking For Group
Bill- Left 4 Dead
Soap Mactavish- Modern Warfare 3
Sandman- Modern Warfare 3
Ghost and Roach- Modern Warfare 2
Gabe- Dead Space 2
Dom- Gears of War 3
Carmine Brothers- Gears of War series
Uriel Septim VII- Elderscrolls Oblivion
Commander Shepherd- Mass Effect 3
Ned Stark- Song of Ice and Fire
Apple Jack's parents
Then again, backstabbing from Flim Flam Brothers, and it's a kid show since children (Not us) can't grasp the advanced subject like economics! I think Duck Tales will hold on to the title as a show that is able to teaching kids about economics (Like Inflation caused by excessive coins).
Pretty sure kids can understand "Okay, so we give you half the money but sell twice as many ciders, so we made the same amount!"
And the strange Luddite message the episode ends up with is not something I want kids to be learning.
No, I meant AJ picking first means she gets better half, and ponies go to her first, not to Riches. She still manages to lose this advantage somehow, no?
The prototype, yes, but seeing Equestria has large magical industry, apparently, I bet someone would have figured how to make it go on magic of regular unicorns, like all of their other big equipment goes. Might be less efficient, but workable.
And yes, FF indeed proposed bad deal, but anyone with business sense tries to haggle it down to compromise for both sides before saying outright 'no', IMHO.
How so? I mean she makes a decent amount off of it but Rich makes more due to better location and likely exporting Zap Apple jam to other cities for greater profit. Also it wouldn't surprise me if Rich actually got first pick considering how bad at business Granny is.
That wasn't a prototype. Also what large magical industry? We've seen industry sure but it's very schizo. Kinda like if it was completely dependent on a few ponies who have that as their talents in order to operate. Anyways perhaps it could be duplicated, but right now it simply isn't worth the effort considering it is only slightly more efficient then just hiring more ponies. Eventually sure, but then Applejack could get one of her own instead of being forced to deal with the Flim Flam bros
I think it was simplified just because watching them seriously haggle would have been boring. However it could also be that the Flim Flam bros weren't negotiating in good faith. They offered a deal that they knew would ruin Sweet Apple Acres and when that was refused they decided to take over through sheer competition instead. They never had any intention of having a mutually beneficial deal.
__________________ sacrificing minions: is there any promblem it CAN'T solve?
That requires Apples having monopoly on apple sales, which is not a given. Plus, also requires them to screen all their bulk buyers, like Rich family, to make sure they are not selling to competition. This basically requires huge expense and overhead as Apples start shifting only small sales, plus spoilage losses from slow sales on top of that. Finally, Flim and Flam are unicorns, what if they figure out spell letting them turn, say, carrots into apples, undercutting monopoly completely?
You know, that actually makes me wonder about something related to the latest episode.
Spoiler
Apparently, a variant of that spell already exists, since Twilight attempted to turn an apple into an orange. If she could do the reverse, and then turned the apples into cider, would you get orange cider when the spell wore off?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixie
On flip side, had AJ simply negotiated good deal in the beginning saying 'I have all the apples, deal with it' there would be no damage to farm, everyone would have walked from the table richer, and they wouldn't antagonize ponies that almost kicked them out of business with a prototype.
Since when working machine is a scam?
This also might backfire in FF getting apples from somewhere and never agreeing to change bet to allow AJ use friends as they would be understandably pissed.
If I understand your argument, it is that all of this could have been solved if either party had been willing to negotiate. You're right.
That's part of why I call the Flim-Flam's plan a scam. In the first option, the Apples can consent to the FF distribution, something that benefits FF much more than the Apples. If Applejack is correct in her estimation, it would put them out of business. (On that note, the Apples have got to be the most successful struggling farm in existence.) The logical option is to attempt to negotiate, especially for the two unicorns who don't have what they need to actually use their machine.
Do they do that? No. Instead, they threaten to put the Apples out of business by being their direct competitors. (This, admittedly, adds credence to there being apple producers outside the extended Apple family.) If that wasn't enough, they're brazen enough to sell an Apple product in front of them.
They then propose a bet that heavily favors themselves where they stand to lose nothing and gain everything. That, more than anything else, marks it as a scam, and marks the Apples as poor businessponies.
If Granny McFly Smith hadn't been goaded into accepting FF's bet, then they'd have had to walk away and find their own apples. This would involve them finding a willing buyer, getting a way to transport them all back, and actually having enough to still compete with the Apples.
In reality, the Apples were in no danger from the FF brothers until they accepted the bet. It's the same way with the street-corner con man; he's harmless until he goads you into playing a game you can't win.
__________________
Allons-y!
"Everything I see is total, unblemished reality...Except for the flying carrots. Those are probably fake." ~Trixie
Also the resonance changes to the street are going to be permanent.
So lasting -2 to Death magic?
*sigh*
Well, at least it will be harder to raise zombies too... provided it's right outside our window...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diego Havoc
Oh hai, Druid Droid. Long time no see!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander
Woo! Long time no see!
I have been around, but bad about checking threads. I would blame being busy but that's no excuse. Instead I will just plan on trying to hover around more. Good to see familiar faces though!
On the one hand, I know what you're actually referencing here.
On the other, Total Harmonic Reversal makes me think of hilariously over-the-top anime finishers, and I have a pony version of one I'd dearly love to create, if I could only do it justice...
Quote:
Originally Posted by HamHam
The Cider episode is bad because of it's complete lack of understanding of economics and how flagrant it is in that ignorance. I could almost forgive it because of it's great song and so forth but then AJ has that smug bit about already knowing the lesson at the end and I just want to punch her in the face.
They should have just driven a harder bargain with the Flim Flam brothers to begin with, and made bank. Instead...
I think this should be balanced against the fact that the whole episode is one giant reference to The Music Man
I can forgive a great deal for good references.
__________________ I never saw an ugly thing in my life - John Constable
That's part of why I call the Flim-Flam's plan a scam. In the first option, the Apples can consent to the FF distribution, something that benefits FF much more than the Apples. If Applejack is correct in her estimation, it would put them out of business. (On that note, the Apples have got to be the most successful struggling farm in existence.) The logical option is to attempt to negotiate, especially for the two unicorns who don't have what they need to actually use their machine.
No attempt is made to haggle by either party. I don't think this can fairly be attributed to either sides motivation even, it's just because the plot says so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_druid_droid
I think this should be balanced against the fact that the whole episode is one giant reference to The Music Man
I can forgive a great deal for good references.
So is that one Simpson's episode. But in that, we understood how the town was being suckered into buying something they didn't actually need. Here, the "con" (and it's not really a con, because the flippin machine works as advertised) is nonsensical and only works because half the ponies are given the Idiot Ball for the episode.
There is one crazy theory that's been with the fandom a long time to explain where all the money goes to:
Spoiler
Big Mac's child support to ALL the mares
An illustration:
Spoiler
This was before Cheerilee episode, even though they could be teasing to the crusaders.
About the discussion on economics, it is based on John Henry vs Drilling Machine.
__________________
Pony Minecraft Avatar
Rest in Peace:
Spoiler
Miko Miyazaki, Thanh, Durkon- Order of the Stick
Krunch- Looking For Group
Bill- Left 4 Dead
Soap Mactavish- Modern Warfare 3
Sandman- Modern Warfare 3
Ghost and Roach- Modern Warfare 2
Gabe- Dead Space 2
Dom- Gears of War 3
Carmine Brothers- Gears of War series
Uriel Septim VII- Elderscrolls Oblivion
Commander Shepherd- Mass Effect 3
Ned Stark- Song of Ice and Fire
Apple Jack's parents
I have been around, but bad about checking threads. I would blame being busy but that's no excuse. Instead I will just plan on trying to hover around more. Good to see familiar faces though!
Pretty sure kids can understand "Okay, so we give you half the money but sell twice as many ciders, so we made the same amount!"
Well, this isn't quite accurate. Even with a fifty-fifty split, the Apples are losing out; they're getting the same amount of money for twice the amount of apples, so they're making half of what they normally earn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HamHam
No attempt is made to haggle by either party. I don't think this can fairly be attributed to either sides motivation even, it's just because the plot says so.
So is that one Simpson's episode. But in that, we understood how the town was being suckered into buying something they didn't actually need. Here, the "con" (and it's not really a con, because the flippin machine works as advertised) is nonsensical and only works because half the ponies are given the Idiot Ball for the episode.
And here we come to the nexus of the episode. If the Apples had actually thought for half a second, they'd have realized that the Flim-Flam brothers stood no chance against them in an actual economic competition, and thus going into business with them was only ever an option, never a requirement. If they'd thought, they should have demanded their own counter-conditions that make them a profit.
(That is, they'd have to find an arrangement where the sale-price of the apples sacrificed to pay for the machine's 'rent' is less than the amount of money they'd make by doing it the normal way. In this case, because they are their own suppliers, the only real reason to go into business with the FF brothers is because the cider season might limit the number of apples able to be processed into cider.)
It is in their best interest to keep the demand high and the supply low. That's the only possible threat the FFB can pose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by t209
An illustration:
Spoiler
This was before Cheerilee episode, even though they could be teasing to the crusaders.
About the discussion on economics, it is based on John Henry vs Drilling Machine.
Well, it's more about the eternal fight between Mankind and machine, but yes. Also, pregnant Dashie looks very uncomfortable there...
__________________
Allons-y!
"Everything I see is total, unblemished reality...Except for the flying carrots. Those are probably fake." ~Trixie
Well, at least it will be harder to raise zombies too... provided it's right outside our window...
No that probably won't stick. Resonance changes are not the same thing as massively affecting arcana used in the area. It will just always have the feeling of a wild storm and a strong sense of life, power, and vigor, rather than whatever was there before. How did this conversation make it into ponythread anyway? I think half the ponies here think we're all crazy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_druid_droid
I have been around, but bad about checking threads. I would blame being busy but that's no excuse. Instead I will just plan on trying to hover around more. Good to see familiar faces though!
And it's good to see you in different contexts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HamHam
No attempt is made to haggle by either party. I don't think this can fairly be attributed to either sides motivation even, it's just because the plot says so.
I agree with you that the episode is in blatant disregard of the teachings of economics. However, I think the episode is a rather accurate reflection of how most of the world also seems to act in blatant disregard of economics. The Apple family acts almost entirely out of pride in Super Speed Cider Squeezy. First, they're too proud to admit that the machine could work better. Then, when Granny Smith tastes the cider and realizes that it's perfectly good, she's too proud to admit it and they don't buy the machine. Then they rush into a bet and they're too proud to point out the obvious problem that they own the apples.
They also stand by their reputation with the rest of Ponyville, and I think they would be more hurt if the other ponies viewed them as cheats or tricksters for making a bet and then refusing to give up their apples than they would by losing their own farm. That's just how much they care about their reputation.
It's a prime example of non-economic factors playing a leading role over economic factors. And it's not stupid or wrong, although it might be irrational.
__________________
Lawyer Pony Avatar by Dirtytabs, exalted as an Eclipse by Elemental, now with a fancy robe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Giant
Anarion's right on the money here.
Quotes
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.
My Little Pony LVII: Something Something Crystals!
My Little Pony LVII: Gak Gak Gak! (Think someone already suggested this a few pages back).
My Little Pony LVII: You Must Construct Additional Pinkies!
how about ponythread #: pinkies, pinkies everywhere
__________________
a tiny space dedicated to a beloved grandpa now passed. may every lunch be peanut butter-banana sandwiches.
i has 2/4 an internets.
old avatars
__________________
Pony Minecraft Avatar
Rest in Peace:
Spoiler
Miko Miyazaki, Thanh, Durkon- Order of the Stick
Krunch- Looking For Group
Bill- Left 4 Dead
Soap Mactavish- Modern Warfare 3
Sandman- Modern Warfare 3
Ghost and Roach- Modern Warfare 2
Gabe- Dead Space 2
Dom- Gears of War 3
Carmine Brothers- Gears of War series
Uriel Septim VII- Elderscrolls Oblivion
Commander Shepherd- Mass Effect 3
Ned Stark- Song of Ice and Fire
Apple Jack's parents
__________________
a tiny space dedicated to a beloved grandpa now passed. may every lunch be peanut butter-banana sandwiches.
i has 2/4 an internets.
old avatars
You have to ask why they went with cruddy Pain and not Naruto himself, which would make far more sense under the circumstances, and wouldn't be as insulting to Pinkie...
Hey, I just realised, though this episode is totally fuelling the fire of the whole Pinkuto schick, ain't it?
Fifth Equestrian Civilisation
Spoiler
Dear Twilight Sparkle,
You will be glad to hear I will be coming home soon, with our objectives achieved; I hope you haven't had too much trouble in my absense (especially as it has only been two days from your perspective!)
After securing Gao, Bleakbane spent a long time martialling our military forces, while I tended to improving the citizens and the counryside with our weath factories. I sent out some more colonists to found Ponyville - by the sea, which is nice! That gave us some much needed salt, because I can tell you, I really needed some of that! I offered some to Bleakbane, but he just looked at me gone out! Different species (and living verses Undead!) I guess!
While we waited for our railroads, we sent a colony ship all around the world, trying to find a new place to settle, and after circumnavigating the whole globe, we finally found a small atoll with some nice resources just off the south coast of one of the Songhai cities!
By that point, our trains were running (in case we needed some reinforcements), and I had assembled to squadrons of Wonderbolts under the command of Silver Lining. Songhai denounced us again, and complained we were massing on the borders. Bleakbane denounced them right back (and we found that England and sevral other countries liked them as little as we did!) And then Bleakbane launched the attack with our new artillery. This time, weight of numbers and technology told, and our forces were able to take crush their last two cities with no losses, and then march upon and liberate the citystate, and wiping out the Songhai altogether.
After that bit of excitement, however, it was a very uneventful run. Neither I nor Bleakbane felt it was worth launching a large naval force to conquer the other contient (though for different reasons!) So we simply settled in, built lots of trains and raised the standard of culture and living for our citizens. By 2009 AD, we were in a position to build a magical friendship project that would unite the whole world. But we held off for a few years, because Bleakbane wanted to see how far we could get with the spaceship parts first - and he really wanted to build a Giant Death Robot, even if all they did was stand around Gao!
But eventually, in 2028, we completed the friendship project and made all the humans happy and contented, and left them to it. Blakbane did a logn analysis of my rule, and compared me to Augustus Caesar, which I think was a complement!
Anyway, I feel quite refreshed, and ready to deal with anything the real Equestria can throw at me, and ready to resume my duties! unless you and Luna have managed to burn the palace down while I've been away!
No, but seriously, if you have, you are going to the Moon so hard.
See you soon my dear,
Your loving mentor,
Princess Celestia.
(Both the Wonderbolt had names, but I can't remember the second one, and with how slow Civ V is, it's not worth loading it up again to check! That other music, by-the-by is the CMC theme, with Art of the Dress being the "war" theme, which is hilarious and also awesome.)
Civ V
Pros: Being able to choose to do the production and science instead of being shutned into it at the start of the turn is an improvement; the extra flexibility means it's easier to save, for example, and I did like the fact it didn't move to the next turn while there were bits to do. Bigger city radius is, I think just about a net positive, but probably means you need a bigger map. Ranged fire is I think a net improvement, stacking issues nothwithstanding, as are the improved city defences. Also, being able to buy improvements independantly (and several a round) of the production queue is really handy. Land untis requiring no transports is massively better; naval warfare was always a massive pain in the earlier versions, and even shipping workers around if you had one square on an island was annoying. Religion/social policies were MUUUCH better.
Cons: Still not convinced about the no-stacking, neutral to the chance to hex. Less data available, and I found the interface actually less helpful than civ IV, and missing a few bits. (Like in Civ IV - and Alpha and Civ III - you could Alt+U to upgrade all the units of one type. Tried that, but it didn't seem to work. Maybe there's another key or something I just missed.) Didn't like the fact you can't rename units in Civ V. While it's not a thing I used heavily in Civ IV, I did use it to name my high level units for ease of identification. Great Generals are way less effective than in Civ IV (and most Great People are generally.) Waaaay long to load (even just to the main menu, not even the saved games!) Don't like the lack of direct citizen micromanagement; I preferred being able to make them work exactly what squares I wanted in Civ IV.
Overall, a bit of a giggle, but not earth-shattering (nor as bad as I'd thought it might be.) Not better, overall, than Civ IV, but even so, some areas of improvement. (If they took some of the better ideas of Civ V and added them into Civ IV to make Civ VI, it could be astonishingly good.)
Plus, this dry-run gave me a much better idea of what to do for next time (larger map, better Civ - sorry Equestria, but you kinda suck with that ability that I got to use like, twice during a 380-odd turn game) and go for Tradition straight out of the gate instead of piety (which I did because I'd gotten a bit behind on the Faith and I wanted to snag a good pantheon before all the decent ones went!)
No that probably won't stick. Resonance changes are not the same thing as massively affecting arcana used in the area. It will just always have the feeling of a wild storm and a strong sense of life, power, and vigor, rather than whatever was there before. How did this conversation make it into ponythread anyway? I think half the ponies here think we're all crazy.
I blame...
*checks list*
Thanqol. It's his turn.
Quote:
And it's good to see you in different contexts.
That is an adorable Twilight. I need to use that one myself...
Quote:
I agree with you that the episode is in blatant disregard of the teachings of economics. However, I think the episode is a rather accurate reflection of how most of the world also seems to act in blatant disregard of economics. The Apple family acts almost entirely out of pride in Super Speed Cider Squeezy. First, they're too proud to admit that the machine could work better. Then, when Granny Smith tastes the cider and realizes that it's perfectly good, she's too proud to admit it and they don't buy the machine. Then they rush into a bet and they're too proud to point out the obvious problem that they own the apples.
They also stand by their reputation with the rest of Ponyville, and I think they would be more hurt if the other ponies viewed them as cheats or tricksters for making a bet and then refusing to give up their apples than they would by losing their own farm. That's just how much they care about their reputation.
It's a prime example of non-economic factors playing a leading role over economic factors. And it's not stupid or wrong, although it might be irrational.
Well said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
My Little Pony LVII: You Must Construct Additional Pinkies!
Yeah, I'll cast my vote for this one, for what it's worth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtytabs
My Little Pony LVII: On Saturdays, All We Post Are Spoiler Boxes
Although this one is a close runner-up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anarion
The picture of Mabel hugging Pinkie sells that, I don't even care what they wrote.
Edit: Wait, it's actually a GIF. Even more adorable. Here it is.
Spoiler
Mabel is best pony.
__________________ I never saw an ugly thing in my life - John Constable
You have to ask why they went with cruddy Pain and not Naruto himself, which would make far more sense under the circumstances, and wouldn't be as insulting to Pinkie...
Hey, I just realised, though this episode is totally fuelling the fire of the whole Pinkuto schick, ain't it?
Fifth Equestrian Civilisation
Spoiler
Dear Twilight Sparkle,
You will be glad to hear I will be coming home soon, with our objectives achieved; I hope you haven't had too much trouble in my absense (especially as it has only been two days from your perspective!)
After securing Gao, Bleakbane spent a long time martialling our military forces, while I tended to improving the citizens and the counryside with our weath factories. I sent out some more colonists to found Ponyville - by the sea, which is nice! That gave us some much needed salt, because I can tell you, I really needed some of that! I offered some to Bleakbane, but he just looked at me gone out! Different species (and living verses Undead!) I guess!
While we waited for our railroads, we sent a colony ship all around the world, trying to find a new place to settle, and after circumnavigating the whole globe, we finally found a small atoll with some nice resources just off the south coast of one of the Songhai cities!
By that point, our trains were running (in case we needed some reinforcements), and I had assembled to squadrons of Wonderbolts under the command of Silver Lining. Songhai denounced us again, and complained we were massing on the borders. Bleakbane denounced them right back (and we found that England and sevral other countries liked them as little as we did!) And then Bleakbane launched the attack with our new artillery. This time, weight of numbers and technology told, and our forces were able to take crush their last two cities with no losses, and then march upon and liberate the citystate, and wiping out the Songhai altogether.
After that bit of excitement, however, it was a very uneventful run. Neither I nor Bleakbane felt it was worth launching a large naval force to conquer the other contient (though for different reasons!) So we simply settled in, built lots of trains and raised the standard of culture and living for our citizens. By 2009 AD, we were in a position to build a magical friendship project that would unite the whole world. But we held off for a few years, because Bleakbane wanted to see how far we could get with the spaceship parts first - and he really wanted to build a Giant Death Robot, even if all they did was stand around Gao!
But eventually, in 2028, we completed the friendship project and made all the humans happy and contented, and left them to it. Blakbane did a logn analysis of my rule, and compared me to Augustus Caesar, which I think was a complement!
Anyway, I feel quite refreshed, and ready to deal with anything the real Equestria can throw at me, and ready to resume my duties! unless you and Luna have managed to burn the palace down while I've been away!
No, but seriously, if you have, you are going to the Moon so hard.
See you soon my dear,
Your loving mentor,
Princess Celestia.
(Both the Wonderbolt had names, but I can't remember the second one, and with how slow Civ V is, it's not worth loading it up again to check! That other music, by-the-by is the CMC theme, with Art of the Dress being the "war" theme, which is hilarious and also awesome.)
Civ V
Pros: Being able to choose to do the production and science instead of being shutned into it at the start of the turn is an improvement; the extra flexibility means it's easier to save, for example, and I did like the fact it didn't move to the next turn while there were bits to do. Bigger city radius is, I think just about a net positive, but probably means you need a bigger map. Ranged fire is I think a net improvement, stacking issues nothwithstanding, as are the improved city defences. Also, being able to buy improvements independantly (and several a round) of the production queue is really handy. Land untis requiring no transports is massively better; naval warfare was always a massive pain in the earlier versions, and even shipping workers around if you had one square on an island was annoying. Religion/social policies were MUUUCH better.
Cons: Still not convinced about the no-stacking, neutral to the chance to hex. Less data available, and I found the interface actually less helpful than civ IV, and missing a few bits. (Like in Civ IV - and Alpha and Civ III - you could Alt+U to upgrade all the units of one type. Tried that, but it didn't seem to work. Maybe there's another key or something I just missed.) Didn't like the fact you can't rename units in Civ V. While it's not a thing I used heavily in Civ IV, I did use it to name my high level units for ease of identification. Great Generals are way less effective than in Civ IV (and most Great People are generally.) Waaaay long to load (even just to the main menu, not even the saved games!) Don't like the lack of direct citizen micromanagement; I preferred being able to make them work exactly what squares I wanted in Civ IV.
Overall, a bit of a giggle, but not earth-shattering (nor as bad as I'd thought it might be.) Not better, overall, than Civ IV, but even so, some areas of improvement. (If they took some of the better ideas of Civ V and added them into Civ IV to make Civ VI, it could be astonishingly good.)
Plus, this dry-run gave me a much better idea of what to do for next time (larger map, better Civ - sorry Equestria, but you kinda suck with that ability that I got to use like, twice during a 380-odd turn game) and go for Tradition straight out of the gate instead of piety (which I did because I'd gotten a bit behind on the Faith and I wanted to snag a good pantheon before all the decent ones went!)
You can, but only when you upgrade them for whatever reason.
__________________
Credit for my various avatars goes to Dashwood,Cealocanth,Kwarkpudding,Randomizer,kpengu in,Alarra,Bisected8,zimmerwald1915, and Thanqol.
RSS Feeds: 
Re: My Little Pony LVI:S Has Left the Playground!
sacrificing minions: is there any promblem it CAN'T solve?
Bleeeeh! Alfalfa Monster!
