Shadows of the Past OOC 2

AlanBruce · 11-11-2012, 01:55 AM

Greetings! Since I believe we have outlived the quota of pages for the first OOC, we will continue here.

Also...

DING DING DING! Everyone goes up 1 level. Which means:

Xander is now level 12

Dantie is level 12

Spellbane is level 13

Numerical XP will no longer be given, going up in level once chapters come to a close or when enough of the campaign has gone through. Also, you might want that extra level to increase CL, saves, BAB, etc. Hope the rolls favor you in hp!

Something tells me you'll need it.

Also, could someone please remind me if you rolled stats using 4d6 or 4d6b3. Potential players are asking, but I cannot remember which method was used.

AlanBruce · 11-11-2012, 02:58 AM

I hope Xander hasn't left the game. He will be much needed for this part of the chapter.

dantiesilva · 11-11-2012, 07:55 AM

4d6b3 was used. And yes three horrible feats that let you gain over +16 to str in 3 levels. And have you looked at assimar it is 0-1 not 1-2 hate to tell you Tarith. And I am also guessing you overlooked the fog cloud as well. Saying something gets a LA just because it grants a bonus, and if you take two feats for the race an extra +2 and the spell endure elements in constant effect, and fog cloud 1/day. That seems like a fair trade to me.

Alans eyes

Spoiler

dantiesilva · 11-11-2012, 08:57 AM

(1d8)[4] hope this is high, otherwise wont be doing good on hp still. great a 4...

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetvie...sheetid=464523 here is my sheet. Until next day wont have any new spells.

Hey Alan looking over my spells for this Seal. Have come up with this so far. Forbiddance, 720ft is covered starting from center of the town. Blocks all planar travel in or out of the town. Creatures can no longer be summoned but that does not seem to be an issue in my eyes. Anything entering the area of 1 alignment different then me and who does not speak the correct password takes 6d6 damage will save for half damage. 12d6 if both are different.
Symbol of persuasion that is triggered by any who do not get the password correct. The symbol tells them to go to the lake and take the boat to the inlet and wait there for further instructions. The fey their can decided if they are worthy or not. Effects any amount of HD has to beat a will save or do this, or something similar.
Mark of justice made to work on objects so that it transfers to the person once they touch the door. Makes it so any evil creature touching the door takes -6 to intelligence until a remove curse or enchantment takes it off.
Hallow for obvious reasons.
Magic circle against chaos and evil
Wall of Good/Law in front of the gate as well as Wall of dispel magic.
Greater glyph of warding 10d8 damage, and any spells I want up to 6th level to be activated upon the touch of an evil creature, all my debuffs. My problem is finding a way to make them all reset each day.

Archmage1 · 11-11-2012, 11:31 AM

Dantie, you stated De/angeline was like asimaar, which is a +1, as is half-minotaur, for a total of +2. I will roll up a crusader and a warblade, without using templates. If they need a boost in power, we can add it in.

(4d6b3)[10] (4d6b3)[7]
(4d6b3)[14] (4d6b3)[13]
(4d6b3)[13] (4d6b3)[12]
(4d6b3)[13] (4d6b3)[11]
(4d6b3)[14] (4d6b3)[14]
(4d6b3)[9] (4d6b3)[13]

Or 32 pb. Definitely 32 pb
Tarith health(1d6+2)[3]... and I get minimum health. Fun

Also, @Alan: Questions for Tarith
1: Can Master Spelthief apply to non-arcane classes as well?(otherwise, will multiclass as a sorc after 13, making Xander sad
2: If 1 is true, can I take levels in Swordsage(2 of them)(TOB)
3: If 2 is true, can I modify the swordsage class to ass cha to saves at 2nd level?(normally adds wis to armor)
4: Can I get a Belt of magnificence that does not boost int(drops price by 4k)(21k)
5: Can I trade in existing stat buff items to drop the cost of a belt of magnificence?(4k less each)
6: Ignoring 4 and 5, can I get an "empty" belt of magnificance that can drain other stat items, adding their boosts to the belt, and draining enough from higher level ones to boost it to the same level of power?
7: Can I retrain godsblood spellthief to luck domain instead of trickery domain?
8: Can I redo my spell collection next level?
9: Can I create a modification of the sublime chord class for Tarith?(lets him cast better spells)

As a side note, Tarith now has the discover spell ability, Which Alan is going to love. When he steals a spell from a caster, he automatically knows all the other spells of that level the caster has memorized.

dantiesilva · 11-11-2012, 12:44 PM

Assimar is, but it not the only kind. Their is also a +0LA one, and it has been debated on this site that it should be a +0LA race because it gives you nothing being any other race would besides the spell daylight. And as the race says it is a +0LA race. I posted the link in the post when I asked for them. And yes crusader and such are better, but ToB was not allowed for us so I the best I could with the books allowed. +36 to all damage rolls not including everything else and being able to turn into a black bear and a dire lion. Its actually not that bad.

Ok 3 more levels of Church inquister
1 RSoP
Hierophant
Lore master 3

And thats up to level 20 if we make it that far.

NathanB1486 · 11-11-2012, 01:01 PM

Yesterday was hectic...in the middle of reading, will post something soon

dantiesilva · 11-11-2012, 01:12 PM

Its ok we had Xander doing just that, reading. XD hope it was something good. I will be going to work soon by the way.

Archmage1 · 11-11-2012, 01:34 PM

Well, here is a crusader tripper build. Effectively, if you are near him, he trips you. If I wished to improve him without being cheesy, make him a Goliath. If you want to be cheesy, mineral warrior and half minotaur, hopefully, allowing LA buyoff.
No magical items, which would make him much better. Also no Armour.
This is a basic build.

Combat Tatics: Move in, attack, trip. If surrounded, 5 foot step, trip everyone. If not, use Maneuvers to deal damage and stay alive.
(Note: these maneuvers are probably not optimal for this character, but meh.)

Archmage1 · 11-11-2012, 03:39 PM

Here is a warblade damage build
Effectivly, he is designed to Charge in, dealing a lot of bonus damage using war leader's charge, followed by white raven tactics to go again, allowing him to beat face some more. He should also be resistant to enemy spellcasting, since he can use a concentration check instead of a reflex or will save, and he also stops enemies from defensive casting near him.

He has 3 more feats, so I could tool him as a tripper as well, if desired, or find stuff to let him deal more damage, and boost his attack.

AlanBruce · 11-11-2012, 04:11 PM

Here is a homebrew class (which I am still debating on allowing) suggested by a player. This is the PC sheet.

This is the homebrew.

I'd like imput on you whether this is balanced. I haven't okayed the PC yet, seeing as how I decided to let go off homebrew after the arbiter. I would still like your imput, though.

Archmage1 · 11-11-2012, 04:47 PM

Well... Reading this, I would be tempted to say not balanced.
First, full BAB, god reflex and will. Basically makes fighter look bad. To make things even better for them, they also get magic. There is a limit to their magic, but it is effectively infinite -> can pay one mote per level of their class, and using them is either a move, swift, or standard, but they get 2xlevelmotes each turn. The illuminations are effectively brokenly good.
Effectively, just with his armor crushing blow, If I am reading this correctly, he could deal 14d6+12 damage twice in a round, and reduce the enemies ac by 8, while still having a third attack for 3d6+12.
Basically, this combines fighters with warlocks, and removes the limitations that made warlocks bad. Also, seems to have battlefield control comparable to the max level spells a wizard has. Assuming I am reading this correctly, this is tier 0. Can effectively outfight any fighter style build in a round, can out damage a blast wizard easily, has better defenses than either of them, has perma haste...

Yea... Seems brokenly good to me. Has actions in standard that beat anyone in terms of damage for a standard, has move actions that render Xander irrelevant, and has swift actions that can do basically anything...

As a perspective, this character in a round can...
haste, and attack with 20/20/15/10, dealing damage of 14d6+12, 3d6+12, 3d6+12, 3d6+12, with each attack after the first against -4 ac.
Or...
Just attack for massive damage
20/15/10 14d6+12, 14d6+12. 3d6+12, after the first attack, enemy is at -4 ac, after second, is at -8
Do a combination of the two
23/18/13 14d6+15, 3d6+15. 3d6+15

If he prepares a bit, he can add 5 ac as a move action, create a wall to prevent enemies casting through it as a standard...
He can also have infinite health, as his barriers have no end condition...

AlanBruce · 11-11-2012, 04:57 PM

Thank you. I was waiting for a good critique. I will write the player and ask she change her class to something not homebrewed.

NathanB1486 · 11-11-2012, 05:01 PM

Tarith Just unlocked 6th lvl spells, any recommendations?

AlanBruce · 11-11-2012, 05:16 PM

Don't you mean Xander?

AlanBruce · 11-11-2012, 05:27 PM

I have a hard trouble understanding, or maybe it is that I don't write as clearly as I believe I do. Tradik brought in a homebrew and I accepted the class, then chose against it. I was very clear on the books allowed. And now, this potential players stirs up a storm regarding why the homebrew she wants cannot play in the game.

Archmage1 · 11-11-2012, 05:38 PM

@Alan: the issue with homebrew is that is is typacally either horrifyingly overpowered, or is underpowered. Yes, there are exceptions, but that tends to be it.
Do you have any opinions on the questions below?

Spoiler

@Xander:
6th level spells that a level 12 wiz I am using has
Acid Fog(Fog that does damage, including to items.)(Regretting it)
Freezing Fog(I think you have this as a 5th)
Greater Dispel Magic(Dispel is usually nifty)
Disintegrate(Not so much for the damage, but for the get rid of stuff)
Superior Resistance(+6 to saves is nice)
True Seeing(Dantie has this, so you might not need it)

Other nice spells
AMF: Can solve a lot of issues. Use carefully. Better if you have shape spell
Contingency: This is your don't die spell. Very nice.

ZeroNumerous · 11-11-2012, 05:43 PM

I know I shouldn't post here, but I would like to point out a few things:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archmage1

Basically makes fighter look bad.

Fighter is bad. Straight up it's one of the worst actual fighting classes out there, and it's considered a two level dip for a reason. Cleric X makes Fighter X look bad all on his own. Barbarian, which is in the same book as fighter, makes fighter look bad. Anything useful should make fighter look bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archmage1

To make things even better for them, they also get magic.

Wizard/Abjurant Champion gets effectively full BAB and spells. Wizard/Eldritch Knight does too, and it's weaker than Abjurant Champ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archmage1

There is a limit to their magic, but it is effectively infinite -> can pay one mote per level of their class, and using them is either a move, swift, or standard, but they get 2xlevelmotes each turn.

Yes, you can spend 22 motes as a standard action and move action, or standard and swift, or swift and move. You cannot spend them on all those things. More than that, you have to continue spending them in order to continue doing whatever you were doing, as all of their abilities are either Instant or 1 round in duration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archmage1

Effectively, just with his armor crushing blow, If I am reading this correctly, he could deal 14d6+12 damage twice in a round, and reduce the enemies ac by 8, while still having a third attack for 3d6+12.

This is a misreading of the rules. Armor Crushing Blow costs 11 motes, and the class explicitly states: "Regardless of the number of motes or actions available, an evoker may only use spend a number of motes up to her evoker level on illuminations of a given base type (Blasts, Barriers, and Surges) in a round."

Meaning, I can use Armor Crushing Blow once in a round, as I can only spend 11 motes on a Blast ability in a single round.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archmage1

Basically, this combines fighters with warlocks, and removes the limitations that made warlocks bad.

Warlocks already had no limitations in melee(free Flight, Eldritch Glaive for multiple attacks) and were already better than fighters due to all of their attacks being touch attacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archmage1

Also, seems to have battlefield control comparable to the max level spells a wizard has.

It has a wall that lasts 1 round, and is 45ft long and 10ft high. It can be jumped by a large creature with a +5 bonus to jump.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archmage1

Can effectively outfight any fighter style build in a round...

So can a cleric, so can a barbarian, so can a wizard. Anything can outfight a fighter build, because the things that make fighter builds viable are open and available for every character to take.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archmage1

...can out damage a blast wizard easily...

So can a rogue, cleric, or barbarian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archmage1

..., has better defenses than either of them, has perma haste...

No, it does not have miss chances, it does not have 35 AC, it does not have Hide in Plain Sight, it does not have teleportation. The Wizard and Rogue have much better defenses.

No, it has Haste so long as it spends 11 motes a round to have haste. More than that, it grants its Haste effect as an aura to allies around him, and its haste effect doesn't stack with actual Haste. On top of that: Haste is castable by the party Wizard. There's no reason why Haste shouldn't be available in every encounter anyway. The only thing this does is granting himself Haste prior to the party Wizard spending an action to grant it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archmage1

Has actions in standard that beat anyone in terms of damage for a standard, has move actions that render Xander irrelevant, and has swift actions that can do basically anything...

Remember: It can only spend 11 motes on a given action. Yes, it can deal a lot of damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archmage1

haste, and attack with 20/20/15/10, dealing damage of 14d6+12, 3d6+12, 3d6+12, 3d6+12, with each attack after the first against -4 ac.

Yes, it could do this. But a charging Barbarian does just much damage. A DMM Persist Cleric can deal a great deal of damage in melee as well. An 11th level two-weapon fighting rogue can full attack 4 times for 7d6+DEX+Craven per hit. At +7 DEX, that's 7d6+13 a hit. Is rogue too powerful?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archmage1

Just attack for massive damage

As has been stated prior, this is just a misreading of the rules of the class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archmage1

If he prepares a bit, he can add 5 ac as a move action

Yes, and that costs 11 motes to do. And it only puts him at 28 AC. In other words, it gives him comparable AC to the rogue that's already in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archmage1

, create a wall to prevent enemies casting through it as a standard...

And prevents his team from doing anything either. Except, you know, the wall is 10ft tall and can be flown/leaped over easily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archmage1

He can also have infinite health, as his barriers have no end condition...

Barriers have a duration of 1 round, like Surges. I can gain 22 Temp HP a round, and that's very useful for a tank.

Archmage1 · 11-11-2012, 06:02 PM

Zero: I agree that fighter is bad, but your homebrew seems to be a buffed fighter, combined with a seriously buffed warlock, combined with a slightly nerfed wizard. Again, I could live with any one of those, but all three...
Wizard/Abjurant champion needs to spend feats to get there, and it is flat out a T1 class. If you want a gish, there you go.
Where is it stated that the durations on the abilities is finite? There is a statement that they are short lived, but never where?
As far as Armour crushing blow goes, you can use it, combined with the haste, for... 23d6+48 damage, with no trickery required. Again, still very powerful

Warlocks are very limited in melee. The following points: 1: 3/4 BAB, vs you with full BAB 2: 1d6 damage every 2 levels. You: 1d6 every level. Yes, warlocks get hellfire, but that adds 6d6 at most, and you will still be doing more damage than them. 3: Touch attacks are hardly auto-hitting. 4 d6 vs d10. 5: light armor vs heavy armor

For your wall, the duration is, as far as I can tell, never stated, but it is effectively a turn the enemy wizard off with a move action.

As far as my statement of outfighting any fighter style build in a round...
That was counting basically any melee class, including gishes.

Again, I am saying this is rather overpowered, and you are replying that a triple gestalt of cleric//wizard//some optimized melee can match it...

Arguing that the class is on par with the rest of the party combined seems to be what you are doing. You have all the damage of a twf rogue, the health of a fighter, and the variability of a wizard. You have none of the limitations of those classes, such as low survivability, and poor accuracy.

Also, your dice rolls are rather suspicious, seeing as you did them privatly, you could have easily rolled several hundred times, and then chosen the one of your choice...

NathanB1486 · 11-11-2012, 06:51 PM

Tarith, Freezing fog is a lvl 5 spell in complete arcane, lvl 6 in spell compendium...since both were allowed i picked the lower lvl one.

Also if you are ever looking for random gifts for Xander books, and scrolls are always appreciated as well, for both RP reasons and I want to collect a lot of spells, and will need to buy many scrolls.

Archmage1 · 11-11-2012, 06:53 PM

There are indeed quite a lot of spells. And most of them are even useful in some way. The trick, is, picking the spells, since you can't have them all, as scribing gets expensive, fast.

dantiesilva · 11-11-2012, 10:16 PM

Sorry took me so long everyone, work and guest over now so going to read then I will be back in an hour to post.

Archmage1 · 11-11-2012, 10:45 PM

@Alan: Will you let me get into a modified version of sublime chord, or do you really want me to take the level in bard I would need otherwise

Archmage1 · 11-11-2012, 11:17 PM

This conversation IC seems to be going nowhere...
Arrallae is arguing that there is no threat, and Tarith feels that there would be a significant risk to his life...

AlanBruce · 11-11-2012, 11:23 PM

[quote=Archmage1;14206747]@Alan: the issue with homebrew is that is is typacally either horrifyingly overpowered, or is underpowered. Yes, there are exceptions, but that tends to be it.
Do you have any opinions on the questions below?

Spoiler

@Tarith: Will try to answer these as best as I can.

1. Will have to look up how broken it can become (Glibness comes to mind). Will get back to you on that one.

2. Will read on the Swordsage. I doubt it will be much of a problem (but check 1)

3. check 1 and 2

4. 5. and 6. I will look into the belt- what does it do? I assume it's in the MIC. Please clarify the stat item draining.

7. You may switch the domains if you wish.

8. You already have a decent spell selection. Does the class allow you to swap spells at certain levels like the bard and sorcerer?

9. i believe SC is in the Complete Arcane, yes? A decent prestige class. If you outline the modifications to it, I will certainly consider it. Can't you qualify normally at this point?

AlanBruce · 11-11-2012, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archmage1

This conversation IC seems to be going nowhere...
Arrallae is arguing that there is no threat, and Tarith feels that there would be a significant risk to his life...

Arrallae wishes to divine your next path. She is well aware of the risks involved. Tarith should be in no danger. She means well, actually. None of her actions have proven to be evil.

Also, up to this point, your main course was to reach her. That has been accomplished. You still need to know at least a little of why she was hidden. Also, what else lies beyond the cores and the City. You have a pothook- the reward letter, but there is more to that. Then, there is Steiner's main journal, which has yet to be read by Xander.

Archmage1 · 11-11-2012, 11:35 PM

I agree, but the issue here is that she lost control last time, and this time there would be no steiner to fix her.

I am currently replying to your previous post as well.

Archmage1 · 11-11-2012, 11:41 PM

1. er... I don't really see how that would be broken. It would allow me to advance my spell stealing, and boost the CL of my spells(which would be more or less irrelevant)
4: The Belt of magnificence adds 2 to all stats for 25k. I am proposing letting me buy a "blank" one, without the enchantments added for say... 2k-5k. To add in the enchantments, I would let it drain the items, at which point the enchantment would be in the belt. So, say I could add the cloak of cha +2 to it, destroying the cloak, and the belt would add +2 to cha. Later, I could sacrifice a cloak of cha +4 to it, and it would make the belt a +4 to cha, and the cloak a +2.
7: Thanks.
8: Was more hoping to swap my first level spells freely
swap distract assailant(nice spell, but the dc is just too low for serious use)
and Pro evil(got it to stop mind control, which it doesn't)
for Disguise self and shield. Normally, I could only do one of those two swaps.
9: Tarith could qualify, but he needs bardic music, which means a level of bard, which is sort of... illogical. I would need to spend all of my skill points this level, and the bardic points next level to qualify as is.
The changes:
In the interest of skillmonkeying, skills as a spellthief, rather than what they are(2 more points per level, some additional skills)
Get rid of bardic lore and and bardic music.
Drop the three songs learned in exchange for full bab, instead of half bab(would let me reach 4 iterative attacks at a much higher level), and advance sneak attack at 2, 6, and 10

dantiesilva · 11-11-2012, 11:41 PM

I agree with Tarith even without my OOC knowledge of the game, it is way to risky. Sure I could in the end lock myself in the vault with her and tell them to break all the keys if she goes crazy. Do I want to be trapped in their though...No, but Dantie is also the only one that can use the spell to stop the damage from hurting him for any amount of time to try and talk to her. +Bluffing does not sound like a good idea. No offense Tarith But I can not see you cornering yourself for such a little gain as you said. Plus if we do not open the door she can not get to...Dam she can still use the magic either way...So the vault would be the safest place....Wow either way we lose here T. Unless she listens to me.

Archmage1 · 11-11-2012, 11:45 PM

She is considerably more powerful than we are. If she decides to do it, there is nothing we can do to stop it.

Alan, unless there is something in Steiner's journal that we need to know more about, I think both Tarith(for selfish reasons) and Dantie(for slightly less selfish reasons), are going to argue against the unneeded risk.

To make things even more complicated, Tarith does want to open the vault, and will probably do it even if the decision is made not to(sneak around, steal the items in question)