14th Black Crusade - OOC

[watupwithdat]

Long consolidated post incoming.

Originally Posted by DrK

I don't read it like that at all. The You can get hits+extra hits up to the weapons RoF. It may be poor grammar and not the best written sentence but I still read it as the extra hits including the initial hit cannot exceed the RoF.

Also if not then I'm rule 0ing that one without a shred of remorse. If you expend 2 or 3 rounds then you can only score 2 pr 3 hits.

• "If he hits, he scores a hit for the initial Degree of Success" <- 1 hit.
• "plus an additional hit for every two additional Degrees of Success." <- additional hits for every 2 additional DoS.
• "The number of extra hits scored in this manner cannot exceed the weapon’s semi-automatic rate of fire." <- Notice it's a new sentence, so it's not coupled with the initial hit, and it only mentions the extra (additional) hits, and not the initial hit.

It's pretty obvious looking at it to me. No poor grammar at all. It's only extra hits (i.e. additional hits) that's compared to the amount listed in the RoF -- an initial hit cannot be an "extra" hit.

Your issue is you're thinking of clip size as an exact value. Instead think of it as an abstract value. Storm does not actually use up more of the clip size, it just doubles the amount of hits. You remove 2 from the clip but you can hit with 6 bullets (or 4 bullets with your new rule0 ruling which is wrong). In any case, it's still more bullets that hit than that's removed from the clip, which proves RoF ammo expendature and clip size are abstract values. It's the same with Twin-linked as well, you get an additional hit but you don't use up a higher amount of ammo from the clip.

For balance, let's compare Semi-auto/Full-auto with Swift Attack or Lightning Attack of a melee character with 60 WS. He can get 6 total hits with higher damage and most often Pen. By that comparison 6 (in the case of max amount of hits for a blastmaster), which would be max by the RAW, puts him on that amount of hits level - but much lower damage due to not adding SB to damage. So there's no issue from a balance perspective with going by what the book says regarding additional hits and RoF.

Another balance comparison: the Reaper Autocannon can do more hits and does +2d10 damage per hit over the Blastmaster.

Bottom line is, rules state RoF indicates the limit of additional hits, and there is no reason whatsoever I can think of to change that.

Originally Posted by DrK

The problem was that from a couple of your posts it seemed like you were delaying. So I assumed that...
1, delaying till after the enemy had acted as Farius watched what was unfoldin (no chages necessary)
2. Didn't do anything (it wouldn't be the first time in pbp that ive encountered)

Originally Posted by DrK

in the game it went
Round 1-
Phineas - cloud of doom
Vul- triple tap with autocannon
"Bad guys"- magus mind scourge

Roud 2
Phienas :- move to hide
Farius*:- sonic blaster
Vul:- flame on
Bad guys:- magus flicker, lots of fear checks. begin posession.

Farius* from his ooc posts I thought it had seemed like he was doing nothing 1st round as he watched things unfolding,

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

I guess I might aswell roll initiative for Farius, though I still haven't decided on how he will act in this combat encounter he did not start himself.

You should have asked if that was so. I thought I made it clear I was just deciding on what Farius would do. I had plenty of time for Luc and Henry to do their actions, but then you jumped the gun and did all the NPC actions before I could complete my post (yes, I was in the middle of writing the IC post ).

After I posted I made it clear several times he acted on the first turn, and I'm pretty sure I wrote that in the IC post as well.

But alright, let's assume Farius acted last in the first round, as he delayed his actions watching stuff unfold.

Originally Posted by DrK

(If Watupdat does go before the magus in the second round)
Minion: [roll2] - minion woud take the blasts
Precog Dodge: [roll3] - dodged with at least 2 dos to avoid 2(4) shots
Field: [roll4]

I realized the Evasion tests to avoid Farius' attack have been treated incorrectly. The hits from Storm are additional hits, which means they are all treated as 1 evaded by DoS (just like ordinary additional hits) -- i.e. they're not bundled together like "2 dos to avoid 2(4)", but it's 4 DoS to evade 4 hits. Or 6 DoS to avoid all 6 hits in the previous turn. Unless he tested against 58+ on the Dodge test one hit went through, but that one got absorbed by the field, so doesn't change anything.

Also remember you test evasion before any minions throw themselves to take hits for you, as it seems you're testing them in order of they happen.

You forgot to test Fear (3) for everyone (apart from the ones fearless or busy vomiting and cannot take their actions) before they all act in the 2nd round (before potential daemon possession), which may change things considerably. It has the potential to remove the last 2 posts

I am also waiting to determine Kurin the Minion's actions as soon as they have all tested fear and I know what happens, because he goes dead last before Magus.

[Lucretia]

Mekboy, you can't use swift attack with power fists. They're unbalanced.

[watupwithdat]

Originally Posted by Lucretia

Mekboy, you can't use swift attack with power fists. They're unbalanced.

The errata corrects it. Swift Attack is using Lightning Attack lingo, which doesn't apply. You can actually Swift Attack with Unwieldy stuff as far as I know. No Lightning with Unbalanced/Unwieldy though.

[Lucretia]

Interesting -- never mind, Mekboy, you can go show them what's what with that power fist.

[Henry the 57th]

Anyone want to help Mekboy this turn? The Horde should be at Magnitude 13, so one or two more hits could get rid of it, or at least knock the extra 1d10 off it's attack.

[Lucretia]

To my understanding, I've already gone this turn. This is still Round Two.

EDIT: Also, Watup is correct insofar as RAW is concerned. Rate of Fire clearly dictates extra hits. Is it really worth Rule Zeroing this? The point of Rule Zero is to make sure the game is still fun. That's what it's all about. Is it going to detract from your fun if the rules are followed? What about Henry, or Mekboy, or Watup, or myself?

[Henry the 57th]

Originally Posted by Lucretia

To my understanding, I've already gone this turn. This is still Round Two.

I don't think so:

Originally Posted by DrK

The demon will respond on its turn after Fabrius, Phineas and the beserker of khorne arrive.

It's Round 3.

[Lucretia]

Then I should have gone before you. Also, I've still got a round of being at Psy Rating 1, so I'm just about worthless. So Phinneas, who isn't aware there's a daemon here, is going to back up another four meters, as was his plan before.

[watupwithdat]

Originally Posted by Henry the 57th

Anyone want to help Mekboy this turn? The Horde should be at Magnitude 13, so one or two more hits could get rid of it, or at least knock the extra 1d10 off it's attack.

Originally Posted by Lucretia

To my understanding, I've already gone this turn. This is still Round Two.

Originally Posted by Henry the 57th

It's Round 3.

Yeah, you're getting ahead of yourself. It's still Farius' turn on round 2, and then the enemies need to test Fear, then it's Kurin, then Magus. Then it's round 3 and the Khornate girl enters.

Khornate girl rolled 16 initiative, so she should enter on her initiative, just after Phin takes his turn, as far as I know.

[Henry the 57th]

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

Yeah, you're getting ahead of yourself. It's still Farius' turn on round 2, and then the enemies need to test Fear, then it's Kurin, then Magus. Then it's round 3 and the Khornate girl enters.

Ok, sorry.

I was under the impression that that had been resolved.

[watupwithdat]

Originally Posted by Henry the 57th

Ok, sorry.

I was under the impression that that had been resolved.

Farius' turn is over, the Magus precog dodged all hits from the blastmaster as long as he tested against 56 or higher.

No one has tested against Fear (3) yet.

"Bolter 1: Vomits 3 rounds
Bolter 3: "safe" shock
Melta: Faints 3 rounds
Plasma: -10 on tests
Horde: Don't care
The Psyker minion: -10 on tests"

There's also the guy who is running away screaming from Farius. Not sure how long that lasts. Until he's gotten away and then he can try to snap out of it.

So assuming you don't need to test against Fear when you're busy vomiting, unconscious or running away in fear: Bolter 3, Plasma and Psyker still has to test fear. The Magus seems to be Fearless (which I guess means he has to make a WP test to run away with Flicker), as he never tested during round 1.

[Henry the 57th]

Ah, forgot about the Fear tests.

It doesn't really change what I do, whatever happens. I need that horde weaker before it hits me. 2d10 + whatever damage I can probably tank. 3d10 is less likely. So I still burninate the horde.

Also, sorry if I seem impatient and out of turn - I just really was hoping not to waste too much time on this personal subplot where I'm the only one who stands to gain.

[watupwithdat]

Originally Posted by Henry the 57th

Ah, forgot about the Fear tests.

It doesn't really change what I do, whatever happens. I need that horde weaker before it hits me. 2d10 + whatever damage I can probably tank. 3d10 is less likely. So I still burninate the horde.

Also, sorry if I seem impatient and out of turn - I just really was hoping not to waste too much time on this personal subplot where I'm the only one who stands to gain.

Understandable. But it is what it is. And it's expected that the first combat with quite a few participants and new mechanics (I guess most GMs don't usually have the NPCs test for fear every turn, the Host of Fiend's corruption from failed WP tests and so on) that's not been used much in practice and a "flow" needs to be worked out. I take a long time writing Farius' actions as I'm at the moment unfamiliar with how he fights and ranged combat, for example. The confusion over Farius' first turn probably didn't help either.

I expect the next combat to run more fluidly as we should have gotten all the issues and unfamiliarity sorted out by then.

Better now than during the actual Compact, I suppose.

[Lucretia]

We're about to meet Smarflarfitarmolax, greater daemon of Chaos. He'll probably become an NPC. We'll all stand to gain -- and your staff drifted away, regardless.

[Henry the 57th]

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

Understandable. But it is what it is. And it's expected that the first combat with quite a few participants and new mechanics (I guess most GMs don't usually have the NPCs test for fear every turn, the Host of Fiend's corruption from failed WP tests and so on) that's not been used much in practice and a "flow" needs to be worked out. I take a long time writing Farius' actions as I'm at the moment unfamiliar with how he fights and ranged combat, for example. The confusion over Farius' first turn probably didn't help either.

I expect the next combat to run more fluidly as we should have gotten all the issues and unfamiliarity sorted out by then.

Better now than during the actual Compact, I suppose.

I suppose. But a lot of it is my fault too - I post too quickly, without being thorough about being sure the last turn is done, and that everyone who should have gone has.

And this all seems to have been for nothing anyway, because the prize just sank into the floor. Barring the daemon deciding to help us kill him for some reason, he'll likely be impossible to find in whatever bizarre, supernatural maze he has around here.

[watupwithdat]

Originally Posted by Henry the 57th

I suppose. But a lot of it is my fault too - I post too quickly, without being thorough about being sure the last turn is done, and that everyone who should have gone has.

And this all seems to have been for nothing anyway, because the prize just sank into the floor. Barring the daemon deciding to help us kill him for some reason, he'll likely be impossible to find in whatever bizarre, supernatural maze he has around here.

Yeah, bad you!

I'm at this point treating the daemon as not 100% due to the psyker being able to fail his Fear test and not able to take any action. The magus is probably gone (unless he's got the Fearless talent and fails his WP test to "retreat".)

Worth noting is that you can track the Magus with Psyniscience. Flicker is an active psychic power, and those you can pinpoint with a good enough test.

[Henry the 57th]

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

Yeah, bad you!

I'm at this point treating the daemon as not 100% due to the psyker being able to fail his Fear test and not able to take any action. The magus is probably gone (unless he's got the Fearless talent and fails his WP test to "retreat".)

Worth noting is that you can track the Magus with Psyniscience. Flicker is an active psychic power, and those you can pinpoint with a good enough test.

Possibly. He may or may not.

That's true, but I doubt he'll be using it for long - he undoubtedly is just fleeing to some secret hideout to either cower or come back in five minutes equipped with a bunch of really great stuff.

[DrK]

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

Long consolidated post incoming.

• "If he hits, he scores a hit for the initial Degree of Success" <- 1 hit.
• "plus an additional hit for every two additional Degrees of Success." <- additional hits for every 2 additional DoS.
• "The number of extra hits scored in this manner cannot exceed the weapon’s semi-automatic rate of fire." <- Notice it's a new sentence, so it's not coupled with the initial hit, and it only mentions the extra (additional) hits, and not the initial hit.

It's pretty obvious looking at it to me. No poor grammar at all. It's only extra hits (i.e. additional hits) that's compared to the amount listed in the RoF -- an initial hit cannot be an "extra" hit.

Bottom line is, rules state RoF indicates the limit of additional hits, and there is no reason whatsoever I can think of to change that.

You see the way I read it is also exactly how its portrayed in the other 40K line books where the total number of hits (initial+extra) cannot exceed the weapons RoF and in the Rogue Trader book there is an example of just that (exmaple box on page 43 of Rogue Trader core book) where someone has a RoF 3 weapon - gets enough for 4 hits but loses the fouth one. Its pretty clear RoF = max number of hits.

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

You should have asked if that was so. I thought I made it clear I was just deciding on what Farius would do. I had plenty of time for Luc and Henry to do their actions, but then you jumped the gun and did all the NPC actions before I could complete my post (yes, I was in the middle of writing the IC post ).

After I posted I made it clear several times he acted on the first turn, and I'm pretty sure I wrote that in the IC post as well.

But alright, let's assume Farius acted last in the first round, as he delayed his actions watching stuff unfold.

As you said later there was confusion all around. So I'm sorry for my part i that and I'm sure thuigs will settle down as we adapt to each others style of play/writing.

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

I realized the Evasion tests to avoid Farius' attack have been treated incorrectly. The hits from Storm are additional hits, which means they are all treated as 1 evaded by DoS (just like ordinary additional hits) -- i.e. they're not bundled together like "2 dos to avoid 2(4)", but it's 4 DoS to evade 4 hits. Or 6 DoS to avoid all 6 hits in the previous turn. Unless he tested against 58+ on the Dodge test one hit went through, but that one got absorbed by the field, so doesn't change anything.

Also remember you test evasion before any minions throw themselves to take hits for you, as it seems you're testing them in order of they happen.

Storm doesn't work ilke that. You take the hits (pre-storm) and then dodge as normal and then double any remaining ones. Its been defined like that since Rogue Trader is the offical FAQ and Black Crusade is just the same.

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

You forgot to test Fear (3) for everyone (apart from the ones fearless or busy vomiting and cannot take their actions) before they all act in the 2nd round (before potential daemon possession), which may change things considerably. It has the potential to remove the last 2 posts

I am also waiting to determine Kurin the Minion's actions as soon as they have all tested fear and I know what happens, because he goes dead last before Magus.

Everyone has made a test for Fear(3). They don't have to make a test every round unless there is a new source of fear. You only test when you "encounter a creature with this trait". So there are no additional tests to make save "snap out of it tests" for anyone who needs it.

also - Warp instability.

[Henry the 57th]

Why would Watup require Warp Instability? The guy who shot at him missed with a 44, when he needed a 40?

[Lucretia]

The wording in Harbingers of Doom (Page 277 of the Core Rulebook) indicates that you do test each round.

Originally Posted by Black Crusade Core Rulebook, Page 277

When facing numerous Fear-causing foes, the Heretic only counts the highest source of Fear each round.

That seems to indicate, to me at least, that it is constant.

Also, the combat system was revamped in Black Crusade. From meltas to scatter, the way certain weapons function changed drastically in some cases -- and with such moves like full auto and semi auto, what was once a bonus became a penalty. The argument that 'it worked like X in RT, so it should work like Y in BC' doesn't really work because of such changes.

I don't think Storm was mentioned in the Black Crusade errata. The weapon quality in the Core Rulebook, Page 151, says the following:

Originally Posted by Black Crusade Core Rulebook, Page 151

This Quality doubles the number of hits inflicted on the target and the amount of ammunition expended.

So from that, on semi-automatic, each pair of DoS gives two hits. On page 235, we get this information concerning Evasion.

Originally Posted by Black Crusade Core Rulebook, Page 235

When evading Full Auto or Semi-Auto Bursts, each Degree of Success on the Dodge Test negates one additional hit.

So from this we can see that 1DoS = 1 hit.

Storm doubles the number of hits. So if I had 5 DoS on my semi auto test, I'd have three hits normally. With a storm weapon, that's six hits. Someone would need to roll six degrees of success on their evasion test in order to prevent themselves from being hit.

[DrK]

The wording for the storm description and the semi-auto/full auto actions haven't changed. Only the "to hit" and the half/full action have changed.

For storm
1. See how many hits you get
2. See how many the target evades
3. Double it
4. resolve damage

Same as Dark Heresy, RT and DW. I see no reason why Black Crusade would be different to the other lines in that regard.


The harbringers of doom is also talking about if there are multiple sources of fear you only need test once in a round even if there multiple sources - so you wouldn't have to make multiple tests ina given round. Just one against the most frightening.

[Lucretia]

It says each round, though, which indicates an ongoing event. You need to test, but only against one, because fear tests must be made each round.

Having reviewed the Rogue Trader errata, I'm not sure I see the argument for the dodge check being against the number of hits before they're doubled -- in other words, why, in the prior example of 5 DoS in a semi-automatic attack, my opponent would need to have 3 DoS instead of 6. Unless I've misunderstood and that isn't the position being taken?

EDIT:

Originally Posted by DrK

For storm
1. See how many hits you get
2. See how many the target evades
3. Double it
4. resolve damage

Can you cite your sources or guide me through this process? I haven't been able to find anything in the FAQs which lead me to this, but I haven't checked Dark Heresy's errata in a long time, and I've never read through Deathwatch's because I think it's a terrible game.

[Henry the 57th]

I still am not getting why you are asking Watup to take a Warp Instability test. The plasma guy missed. And even if he had hit, he acted after Watup and so Watup would have until the end of his next turn to do some damage to something.

[DrK]

Originally Posted by Henry the 57th

I still am not getting why you are asking Watup to take a Warp Instability test. The plasma guy missed. And even if he had hit, he acted after Watup and so Watup would have until the end of his next turn to do some damage to something.

Igmore the warp instability. I was getting confused with something else.

Though the magus did avoid 2 rounds worth of noise blaster fire so was unhurt.

[watupwithdat]

Originally Posted by DrK

You see the way I read it is also exactly how its portrayed in the other 40K line books where the total number of hits (initial+extra) cannot exceed the weapons RoF and in the Rogue Trader book there is an example of just that (exmaple box on page 43 of Rogue Trader core book) where someone has a RoF 3 weapon - gets enough for 4 hits but loses the fouth one. Its pretty clear RoF = max number of hits.

RT semi-auto:
"If he succeeds, the attack scores a hit normally. Furthermore, every two degrees of success scores an extra hit. The number of extra hits scored in this manner cannot exceed the weapon’s semi-automatic rate of fire."

BC semi-auto:
"If he hits, he scores a hit for the initial Degree of Success plus an additional hit for every two additional Degrees of Success. The number of extra hits scored in this manner cannot exceed the weapon’s semi-automatic rate of fire."

As you can see, the exact same meaning in both systems. Both mention it's "extra hits" scored that cannot exceed the weapon’s semi-automatic rate of fire. The initial hit does not factor into rate of fire.

Originally Posted by DrK

As you said later there was confusion all around. So I'm sorry for my part i that and I'm sure thuigs will settle down as we adapt to each others style of play/writing.

Yes, agreed.

Originally Posted by DrK

Storm doesn't work ilke that. You take the hits (pre-storm) and then dodge as normal and then double any remaining ones. Its been defined like that since Rogue Trader is the offical FAQ and Black Crusade is just the same.

Storm:
A weapon with the Storm Quality unleashes shots at rapid speed, often through use of a double-barrelled design. This Quality doubles the number of hits inflicted on the target and the amount of ammunition expended. For example, when firing a weapon with the Storm Quality in fully automatic mode, each degree of success yields two additional hits.

Evasion:
"When Evading Full Auto or Semi-Auto Bursts, each Degree of Success on the Dodge Test negates one additional hit."

They use the same wording, as you can see. An additional hit. With Storm you get the double amount. All which are additional hits which needs to be dodged with an additional DoS on the evasion test.

Originally Posted by DrK

Everyone has made a test for Fear(3). They don't have to make a test every round unless there is a new source of fear. You only test when you "encounter a creature with this trait". So there are no additional tests to make save "snap out of it tests" for anyone who needs it.
also - Warp instability.

From BC errata, FAQ section:

Question: How are Fear Tests (for both Enemies and Heretics) treated in Combat? Do you simply roll for each source once per encounter, or do you roll for the highest source every round until it goes away?
Answer: You only make one roll each round against the most Fear-causing source (see page 277, bottom right paragraph).

Edit:
From RT FAQ:
Question: When dodging shots from weapons with Storm, how many shots does each Degree of Success on a Dodge Test allow the defender to avoid?
Answer: In the specific case of Storm weapons, a successful Dodge Test dodges two shots, plus two additional shots for every Degree of Success.

Assuming that applies in BC, I suppose you are correct regarding that. But in the future it's probably best if you reference sources instead of just assuming we are familiar with how it works in previous systems, when basing rules on those -- because I'm not very familiar with DH/RT specific things.

[DrK]

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

RT semi-auto:
"If he succeeds, the attack scores a hit normally. Furthermore, every two degrees of success scores an extra hit. The number of extra hits scored in this manner cannot exceed the weapon’s semi-automatic rate of fire."

BC semi-auto:
"If he hits, he scores a hit for the initial Degree of Success plus an additional hit for every two additional Degrees of Success. The number of extra hits scored in this manner cannot exceed the weapon’s semi-automatic rate of fire."

As you can see, the exact same meaning in both systems. Both mention it's "extra hits" scored that cannot exceed the weapon’s semi-automatic rate of fire. The initial hit does not factor into rate of fire.

That's my point. The sytstems use the same wording and the RT (and DW) examples run through what happens and caps the total number of hit possible as the wepaons RoF. Read the examples given in either RT or DW as they explain it nicely.

(Also the Storm quality mentions hits = twice the RoF, not twice the RoF +1, the listed RoF is maximum achievable number of hits. You can't get more hits than the the number of rounds you fire.)

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

Storm: A weapon with the Storm Quality unleashes shots at rapid speed, often through use of a double-barrelled design. This Quality doubles the number of hits inflicted on the target and the amount of ammunition expended. For example, when firing a weapon with the Storm Quality in fully automatic mode, each degree of success yields two additional hits.

Evasion:
"When Evading Full Auto or Semi-Auto Bursts, each Degree of Success on the Dodge Test negates one additional hit."

They use the same wording, as you can see. An additional hit. With Storm you get the double amount. All which are additional hits which needs to be dodged with an additional DoS on the evasion test.

As I said it was clairified in a RT FaQ that each dodge against a storm weapon dodges 1 that is then double to 2 hits. So in practice resolve the attack normally, do the dodge then double any remaining.

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

From BC errata, FAQ section:
Question: How are Fear Tests (for both Enemies and Heretics) treated in Combat? Do you simply roll for each source once per encounter, or do you roll for the highest source every round until it goes away?
Answer: You only make one roll each round against the most Fear-causing source (see page 277, bottom right paragraph).

Haven't read the BC FAQ that'll keep things fun in future combats! And a change form the other systems

SOme fear
(1d100)[67] Bolter
(1d100)[85] Plasma
(1d100)[9] Psyker

[DrK]

Sorry for double post forgot to include SHock
(1d100+60)[128] bolter
(1d100+80)[159] Plasma

IC corrected

Bolter - melted
Plasma - didn't fire; melted instead (8d5 corruption. Didn't bother rolling)
Psyker unaffected, still goes postal.

Round 3:-
Still awaiting Farius and Phineas before the remaining horde and the approaching Greater Demon

[Lucretia]

+80?

He's very shocked!

EDIT: And that'll be 6d5 corruption for Mr. Bolter and 8d5 corruption for Mr. Plasma? If I understand the shock system (and I very well may not, seeing as how I was brilliant enough to completely miss the second question of the Rogue Trader FAQ!) you add ten for each degree of failure, so the +60 and +80 indicate DoFs.

[Henry the 57th]

Wow, fear is really darn useful in combination with Phinneas' power.

Edit: Also, since our Psyker friend passed, he still gets a Greater Daemon that eats his soul. After thinking about it, I now have more mixed feelings - it's absurdly powerful, yes, but if we do this right it need not be a foe.

[DrK]

Originally Posted by Henry the 57th

Wow, fear is really darn useful in combination with Phinneas' power.

Edit: Also, since our Psyker friend passed, he still gets a Greater Daemon that eats his soul. After thinking about it, I now have more mixed feelings - it's absurdly powerful, yes, but if we do this right it need not be a foe.

Its almost like they planned it....

@ Lucretia:- I didn't roll the 6 or 8d5. I just assumed they would go >10 and spawnify.

EDIT: And I think that this means Turn order etc... is restored. So just Farious and Phineas in this turn as the Demon starts to possess and inhabit the poor little man.

THen bad guys (horde/ demon)