14th Black Crusade - OOC

[DrK]

Originally Posted by Lucretia

On the topic of willpower tests and Host of Fiends --

Would servitors and other mechanical beings need to take a make willpower test to Void screaming and losing their round when set on fire?

Would Jaded/Fearless/Frenzied enemies in the above scenario?

Also, I think adding to the ROF of the blastmaster is definitely a good call. Mechanically, the reaper is the best weapon. Having some that can even slightly approach it, so that we aren't penalized for not taking a fluff-wise poor weapon, would be a blessing.

Servitors or other mindless beings would not as they can ignore being on fire and continue regardless (obvioulsy whilst taking damage)

Not sure about frenzied or fearless will have a read. But jaded would def' have to test with fire. THey are just apathetic not psychotic.

Not all weapons are equal. The noise blaster is far superior to some other exotics and some basic weapons are better than others. Its a fact of all RPGs not just this one. And one doesn't have to go for the mathmatically best option.

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

The thing is both me and Lucretia, two very rulesy people, have been assuming reading the RAW that it worked the way I thought -- that RoF indicated only the limit to the extra hits, and that Storm doubled those extra hits. That's in effect 1/3 less effectivity (or more if you factor in how Storm is evaded).

I any case, I think I'll stick with the choices I've made. The only ranged weapon I think I'd switch to is a Reaper Autocannon and I do not want to use that boring weapon. Little if any RP potential with that or the different Bolt weapons. I can always retire the character if I find he's just scaring people during combat and everyone's dodging his shots.

Saying that I wouldn't mind if the Blastmaster's RoF was bumped up to 3 to reflect it being a rare and exotic weapon (that could rival the legion combi-bolter), and offset that it's hard to get and costs xp to use. Seems unlikey, but it'd help some atleast and get it closer to my vision of the character.

Question for DrK: Can weapons without reload/clip jam?

I'm also "rulesey" and happy with my reading as well. Particularly in light of the worked examples given in the other 40K line of books that explictly say that RoF is the cap on hits.

Its een supported by the Storm description that says "you can't score more hits than twoce the RoF." implying obviouslt that without storm max hits = RoF.

Weapons without ammo could still overheat, have enrgy surges etc... Different mechanism, same effect.

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

A Lord of Change doesn't have UNWP 4 as far as I can tell, as per its write-up on page 358, so it should only have gotten 3 DoS.

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

I was reading the traits list for the Lord of Change.

"Traits: Daemonic (+5), Dark-sight, Fear (4), Flyer (5), From Beyond, Sturdy, Unnatural Strength (+12), Unnatural Toughness (+5), The Stuff of Nightmares."

Those stats may be representative of "a" Lord of change but who knows about this one. You shouldn't assume that monsters/ bad guys will just be pulled out of the books.

[DrK]

Originally Posted by Lucretia

On the topic of willpower tests and Host of Fiends --

Would servitors and other mechanical beings need to take a make willpower test to Void screaming and losing their round when set on fire?

Would Jaded/Fearless/Frenzied enemies in the above scenario?

Also, I think adding to the ROF of the blastmaster is definitely a good call. Mechanically, the reaper is the best weapon. Having some that can even slightly approach it, so that we aren't penalized for not taking a fluff-wise poor weapon, would be a blessing.

Servitors or other mindless beings would not as they can ignore being on fire and continue regardless (obvioulsy whilst taking damage)

Not sure about frenzied or fearless will have a read. But jaded would def' have to test with fire. THey are just apathetic not psychotic.

Not all weapons are equal. The noise blaster is far superior to some other exotics and some basic weapons are better than others. Its a fact of all RPGs not just this one. And one doesn't have to go for the mathmatically best option.

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

The thing is both me and Lucretia, two very rulesy people, have been assuming reading the RAW that it worked the way I thought -- that RoF indicated only the limit to the extra hits, and that Storm doubled those extra hits. That's in effect 1/3 less effectivity (or more if you factor in how Storm is evaded).

I any case, I think I'll stick with the choices I've made. The only ranged weapon I think I'd switch to is a Reaper Autocannon and I do not want to use that boring weapon. Little if any RP potential with that or the different Bolt weapons. I can always retire the character if I find he's just scaring people during combat and everyone's dodging his shots.

Saying that I wouldn't mind if the Blastmaster's RoF was bumped up to 3 to reflect it being a rare and exotic weapon (that could rival the legion combi-bolter), and offset that it's hard to get and costs xp to use. Seems unlikey, but it'd help some atleast and get it closer to my vision of the character.

Question for DrK: Can weapons without reload/clip jam?

I'm also "rulesey" and happy with my reading as well. Particularly in light of the worked examples given in the other 40K line of books that explictly say that RoF is the cap on hits.

Its een supported by the Storm description that says "you can't score more hits than twoce the RoF." implying obviouslt that without storm max hits = RoF.

Weapons without ammo could still overheat, have enrgy surges etc... Different mechanism, same effect.

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

A Lord of Change doesn't have UNWP 4 as far as I can tell, as per its write-up on page 358, so it should only have gotten 3 DoS.

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

I was reading the traits list for the Lord of Change.

"Traits: Daemonic (+5), Dark-sight, Fear (4), Flyer (5), From Beyond, Sturdy, Unnatural Strength (+12), Unnatural Toughness (+5), The Stuff of Nightmares."

Those stats may be representative of "a" Lord of change but who knows about this one. You shouldn't assume that monsters/ bad guys will just be pulled out of the books.

[DrK]

WP 89 (+4) (1d100)[25]
WP less (1d100)[96]

[Henry the 57th]

Originally Posted by DrK

WP 89 (+4) [roll0]
WP less [roll1]

What does "WP less" mean?

[watupwithdat]

Originally Posted by DrK

Not all weapons are equal. The noise blaster is far superior to some other exotics and some basic weapons are better than others. Its a fact of all RPGs not just this one. And one doesn't have to go for the mathmatically best option.

It cannot be compared to the other Exotic weapons though (apart from the sonic blaster), because they do not have the same role as weapons. Instead you should compare it to the autocannons, legion combi-bolter, legion heavy bolter, multilas and so on -- weapons that have the same roles as weapons and are closest in damage, amount of hits, penetration and so on. Compared to all of those, and factored in the higher cost, the blastmaster is lackluster/underpowered I believe. And it seems Luc agrees with me, which I must say is surprising considering she hates homebrew/houserules with a passion.

I'm not saying that all weapons no matter what should be equal. I'm saying that it should be more in line with other weapons that does what it does but, but does it better and aren't anywhere close to hard to get a hold of. It doesn't need to be the best mathemically, but it should be in line with other similar weapons.

Originally Posted by Henry the 57th

What does "WP less" mean?

That the target is less than the above value? It was a possession test. The daemon has control now, not that we know, unless it somehow becomes obvious.

[Henry the 57th]

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

That the target is less than the above value? It was a possession test. The daemon has control now, not that we know, unless it somehow becomes obvious.

I think I know. I can see it all happening and explicitly warned everyone about it.

[DrK]

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

It cannot be compared to the other Exotic weapons though (apart from the sonic blaster), because they do not have the same role as weapons. Instead you should compare it to the autocannons, legion combi-bolter, legion heavy bolter, multilas and so on -- weapons that have the same roles as weapons and are closest in damage, amount of hits, penetration and so on. Compared to all of those, and factored in the higher cost, the blastmaster is lackluster/underpowered I believe. And it seems Luc agrees with me, which I must say is surprising considering she hates homebrew/houserules with a passion.

I'm not saying that all weapons no matter what should be equal. I'm saying that it should be more in line with other weapons that does what it does but, but does it better and aren't anywhere close to hard to get a hold of. It doesn't need to be the best mathemically, but it should be in line with other similar weapons.



That the target is less than the above value? It was a possession test. The daemon has control now, not that we know, unless it somehow becomes obvious.

"WP less" was just as I had misplaced my notebook with the psyker's stats in.

Blastmaster
Basic mode 150m S/2/- 1d10+12 PEN6 Devastating(1) Storm
Heavy mode 250m S 3d10+10 PEN8 Devastating(2) Blast (4)

So maximum 4 hits in semi-auto mode (or 8 magnitude to horde) and Blast 4 - 7 magnitude damage to a horde on blast mode

Combi Bolter: shorter range, less damage, less PEN, max 4 hits
Heavy Bolter: HEAVY, not basic, max 6 hits, same damage, less PEN
Plasma Gun: same damage, better PEN, max 2 hits, overheats
Multilaser: Heavy, not basic, max 5 hits avg 3 more damage but much worse PEN

- So as a basic semi-auto weapon its very good. Better than most of the others in fact. And that's only comparing it to the legion ones so its far better than any of the others that are non-legion.

In "Big" mode
- missile launcher (frag) - pitiful damage by comparison
- Lascannon: Better damage (by 11), No blast, no horde breaking ability
- multimelta: Much smaller blast, ~same avg damage, better PEN
- Plasma cannon - less damage, less range, less blast, overheats.

So in the world of heavy high damage single shot weapons its also very competitive and amongst the best of them

So I think its in no way underpowered. As a basic semi-auto weapon its amongst the best and even when looking at single big shot mode its better than most and about as effective as the multimelta unless you're facing very high armour. The fact it that combines one of the best semi-auto modes with one of the best single shot blast modes leaves it as an excellent choice.

- If its not as good as the autocannon well.. so. None of the other weapons, basic or exotic are either. Doesn't mean you have to use one.

[watupwithdat]

Blastmaster: max 4 hits, but those 4 hits can be evaded with 2 DoS, it's Near Unique and cost 500 xp to use properly.

Legion Combi-bolters: twin-linked, which means they have max 5 hits, and you need 4 or 5 DoS (for twin-linked extra hit) to Evade all those hits. It's Extremely Rare (Very Rare for someone with Ancient Warrior, which most Astartes seem to take anyway). 3 less damage and 2 less pen. I cannot say I factor in range, as combat very rarely take place over 70m.

Legion Heavy Bolter: Heavy in practice means nothing unless you're dual-wielding ranged weapons (which I never see anyone do, so that's a non-issue) and Astartes have Bulging Biceps. 1 less Pen, which is negligible, and you get 6 hits for for 6 DoS which you need 6 DoS to evade. With 3 DoS on a Blastmaster you get 4 hits, need 2 DoS to dodge all. With 3 DoS on a heavy bolter, you get 3 hits and need 3 DoS to dodge all. And you can get 3 additional hits. Clearly superior, by a long shot I'd say. Very Rare for most PC Astartes.

Plasma guns: Underpowered. We all know it. That's why no one use them.

Multilaser: Heavy, see above. Higher RoF, does better on low-AP targets (but potentially better on higher AP-targets as well) and harder to dodge. No one uses it, Very Rare.

Autocannon: 1 less rof, harder to dodge, much higher damage, negligible lower pen due to so much higher damage, Reliable, Very Rare.

Reaper Autocannon: +1 rof, much harder to dodge (2 DoS vs 4/5 DoS), much higher damage, negligible lower pen due to so much higher damage, Reliable, Extremely Rare.

Basic or Heavy class actually rarely has any bearing for Astartes unless you plan to wield two basic ones, which.. yeah.. too lame.

Regarding Blast mode: I'm not arguing about that one, they're all fairly close/bad/good. But still worse than any semi/auto for standard usage. It's rare you only want to shoot single target on someone.

I included rarity in my comparison, and the fact that an Astartes can use all of them out of the box.

Most comparable weapons have about the same rof (or higher), hits that are much harder to avoid and negligible damage/pen differences (or much higher in the case of autocannons). The Blastmaster is +20/+30 availbility more than all of them and it costs 500 xp to use. Don't you think availability and xp cost should be factored in as well when balancing, and not just pure stats? That it's a "2-in-1" doesn't really make up for it, when you can just as easily carry two weapons.

Edit: Oh and btw, don't forget to mention all the chaos spawn mutating right about now.

[DrK]

Originally Posted by watupwithdat

Blastmaster: max 4 hits, but those 4 hits can be evaded with 2 DoS, it's Near Unique and cost 500 xp to use properly.

Spoiler

Legion Combi-bolters: twin-linked, which means they have max 5 hits, and you need 4 or 5 DoS (for twin-linked extra hit) to Evade all those hits. It's Extremely Rare (Very Rare for someone with Ancient Warrior, which most Astartes seem to take anyway). 3 less damage and 2 less pen. I cannot say I factor in range, as combat very rarely take place over 70m.

Legion Heavy Bolter: Heavy in practice means nothing unless you're dual-wielding ranged weapons (which I never see anyone do, so that's a non-issue) and Astartes have Bulging Biceps. 1 less Pen, which is negligible, and you get 6 hits for for 6 DoS which you need 6 DoS to evade. With 3 DoS on a Blastmaster you get 4 hits, need 2 DoS to dodge all. With 3 DoS on a heavy bolter, you get 3 hits and need 3 DoS to dodge all. And you can get 3 additional hits. Clearly superior, by a long shot I'd say. Very Rare for most PC Astartes.

Plasma guns: Underpowered. We all know it. That's why no one use them.

Multilaser: Heavy, see above. Higher RoF, does better on low-AP targets (but potentially better on higher AP-targets as well) and harder to dodge. No one uses it, Very Rare.

Autocannon: 1 less rof, harder to dodge, much higher damage, negligible lower pen due to so much higher damage, Reliable, Very Rare.

Reaper Autocannon: +1 rof, much harder to dodge (2 DoS vs 4/5 DoS), much higher damage, negligible lower pen due to so much higher damage, Reliable, Extremely Rare.

Basic or Heavy class actually rarely has any bearing for Astartes unless you plan to wield two basic ones, which.. yeah.. too lame.

Regarding Blast mode: I'm not arguing about that one, they're all fairly close/bad/good. But still worse than any semi/auto for standard usage. It's rare you only want to shoot single target on someone.

I included rarity in my comparison, and the fact that an Astartes can use all of them out of the box.

Most comparable weapons have about the same rof (or higher), hits that are much harder to avoid and negligible damage/pen differences (or much higher in the case of autocannons). The Blastmaster is +20/+30 availbility more than all of them and it costs 500 xp to use. Don't you think availability and xp cost should be factored in as well when balancing, and not just pure stats? That it's a "2-in-1" doesn't really make up for it, when you can just as easily carry two weapons.

I think Heavy/basic makes a difference. Especially for non-astartes who can also use Noisblasters. Even for Astartes basic weapons can be fired one handed allowing a second weapon or a melee weapon, they can also be quick drawn - something that Henry found out.

As for the other weapons allowing more hits... well, they also require you to get the required hit rolls to do that well. To get 4 hits from the Storm Bolter you need 3 DoS, to get the same from the Combi-Bolter you need 5 DoS. The heavy bolter can only be fired in full-auto which also hinders shooting accuracy. In addition you are comparing the "best" of regular weapons with it. Its also far better than 90% of tye other weapons and requires no ammunition and no reloading. And has a longer range.

Against hordes its also better than all of the above doing 8magnitude damage with 2DoS, better than any of the other semi-auto weapons.

As for availablilty- makes no difference at all with ease of trading and the like. You managed to start with one with little hassle. There is also the fact that it better than most other exotics. There is no reason for it be the "best". It is in fact a very good blast and a very good semi-auto weapon rolled into the same.

[Lucretia]

So it doesn't strike you as bizarre that the best weapon in the game, to my knowledge, is an extremely rare solid projectile weapon? Not even an exotic one at that, but just some run of the mill, remarkably easy thing to obtain?

[watupwithdat]

Originally Posted by DrK

In addition you are comparing the "best" of regular weapons with it. Its also far better than 90% of tye other weapons and requires no ammunition and no reloading. And has a longer range.

Because other weapons aren't really used by PC characters usually, and are not weapons you try to obtain if you want to be effective at your role.

Originally Posted by DrK

Against hordes its also better than all of the above doing 8magnitude damage with 2DoS 3 DoS, better than any of the other semi-auto weapons.

Yes, you may reach 8 mag damage with only 3 DoS, but most ranged weapons will get a lot of hits vs horde due to the high to-hit modifiers you get vs hordes.

All ranged weapons are also worse vs. hordes (apart from long range flamers and high blast value grenades) compared to melee attacks which are the undisputed masters of that. So that all ranged weapons are bad vs hordes isn't saying much.

Originally Posted by DrK

As for availablilty- makes no difference at all with ease of trading and the like. You managed to start with one with little hassle. There is also the fact that it better than most other exotics. There is no reason for it be the "best". It is in fact a very good blast and a very good semi-auto weapon rolled into the same.

If a +30 trade-in and using the Wealth passion is "little hassle" then I don't know what would be "no hassle". Being a sorcerer and trading in their force weapon for +50? That's the only thing that can get a higher trade-in unless you have 40+ infamy and Excessive Wealth. I had to really use all I could to start with a B-cm Near Unique weapon. And yes, it's best among the Exotics, more or less. But none of the other exotics does what it does, so it's not really like you can compare it. Other than say "all the other exotic ranged weapons suck". I guess the -40 Toxic one is alright, but it's hard to actually damage anyone with it, so I suppose it's bad too.

I'm not asking for it to be "best", I'm asking for it to be "better", as to reflect it's availbility and cost to use compared to other as good or better weapons.

In my opinion the biggest problem with the Blastmaster is it's so easy to avoid all hits due to you only needing 2 DoS. If you evade, you probably get 2 DoS as well. With 3 RoF you'd atleast need 3 DoS on the evade test to avoid all, which isn't as easy.

[DrK]

Originally Posted by Lucretia

So it doesn't strike you as bizarre that the best weapon in the game, to my knowledge, is an extremely rare solid projectile weapon? Not even an exotic one at that, but just some run of the mill, remarkably easy thing to obtain?

Yes that strikes me as a little strange. But it does not make me feel obliged to improve all of the other weapons to compensate. I don't know why the designers left autocannons as so good - maybe its a hold over from the old tabletop games - who knows.

But also I expect players to pick things for characterful reasons rather than just mathmetical numbercrunching so its never bothered me that much. If you're a terminator its one of 3 weapon choices - the only minor quibble I have is them not defining terminator weapons changes as requireing a spanner and 10 minutes like they did with Deathwtach. Allowing it to be like "power armour plus".

[Lucretia]

Originally Posted by DrK

Yes that strikes me as a little strange. But it does not make me feel obliged to improve all of the other weapons to compensate.

No, but you'd think two players asking you to might have an effect.

[watupwithdat]

I could also add that if I wanted to obtain a b-cm Blastmaster in play I would probably not be able to.

-50 near unique, -20 b-cm, +30 trade, +10 single = -30. I'd need to roll a natural 1 to obtain it with my current Infamy. That's not a hassle to obtain, that's near impossible.

[Henry the 57th]

For the record, Vul isn't speaking. He's projecting his voice straight into the daemon's mind. When things are in italics, it indicates him communicating mentally. Quotes are him speaking aloud.

[DrK]

Originally Posted by Lucretia

No, but you'd think two players asking you to might have an effect.

Surely then rather than improving all the other weapons it would be simpler to downgrade Autocannons?

And it being hard to get, its a BQ exotic weapon. When you have a relatively low infamy fof 30 it should be hard to get!


On the IC stuff
- You can view the Demon's offer as a "Side-Compact" that you may or may not investigate. It will be setting up a lair up on the Space Dock.

[DrK]

Originally Posted by Henry the 57th

For the record, Vul isn't speaking. He's projecting his voice straight into the daemon's mind. When things are in italics, it indicates him communicating mentally. Quotes are him speaking aloud.

I guessed that. Sorry if one the IC posts suggested otherwise. The demon is just speaking out loud however.

[Henry the 57th]

Originally Posted by DrK

I guessed that. Sorry if one the IC posts suggested otherwise. The demon is just speaking out loud however.

Incidentally, can I use my flamer to start torching the temple? I want to spite the sorcerer, and also to destroy whatever objects of power he has here. No sense in leaving a living enemy with a powerful and convenient base, after all, and it might even earn us a point or two of corruption or infamy for the awe such an act would inspire.

[Lucretia]

Considering the daemon might take it as his lair, it's probably not wise. And Phinneas wouldn't mind glancing around for any such objects of power -- why destroy them when you can use them against your foes?

[DrK]

Originally Posted by Henry the 57th

Incidentally, can I use my flamer to start torching the temple? I want to spite the sorcerer, and also to destroy whatever objects of power he has here. No sense in leaving a living enemy with a powerful and convenient base, after all, and it might even earn us a point or two of corruption or infamy for the awe such an act would inspire.

Well things like the benches and wall hangings are flammable. The friezes on the wall might melt but also would piss off the demon. Themain superstructure itself is made of metal bulkhead bits so wouldn't really burn.

EDIT:
You are currently on the space dock In orbit. Its likely to be Skarrsdelve the main city/settlement/slave market

[Henry the 57th]

Originally Posted by DrK

Well things like the benches and wall hangings are flammable. The friezes on the wall might melt but also would piss off the demon. Themain superstructure itself is made of metal bulkhead bits so wouldn't really burn.

Ok. Don't wanna piss off the Lord of Change. I guess that can wait until he's gone - that body won't last long - and we've looted the place.

[watupwithdat]

Originally Posted by DrK

Surely then rather than improving all the other weapons it would be simpler to downgrade Autocannons?

If you want to go with the 'fun' factor it's better to buff the blastmaster. It's less fun when everyone evades your 4 hits because they only need 2 DoS.

And I'm guessing you missed my post (where I mentioned evasion as the biggest problem) above Luc's.

[Lucretia]

Psyniscience check to see if I can make out any artefacts around the area.

(1d100)[63] v. 80
(1d100)[84] v. X, 45 if above is unsuccessful, 70 if above is successful.

EDIT: I do not, in fact, see anything. Darn.

[Henry the 57th]

I'm checking the pulpit. Also, there was mention of the psyker having a staff. If the daemon isn't holding onto it, I grab that as well.

[watupwithdat]

Technically the LoC's thought sending failed, as he rolled a 94.

[Lucretia]

They can't fail focus tests. They automatically succeed with 1d5 DoS.

EDIT: Ouch! I hadn't considered Phinneas craven. Is he really lacking in courage?

[watupwithdat]

Originally Posted by Lucretia

They can't fail focus tests. They automatically succeed with 1d5 DoS.

He's not using the book's write-up for his LoC. Even more evident as he actually tested.

And Mekboy, Alicia should technically probably be scared by the horrifying Fear 3 (as he was still shooting stuff) Slaanite right about then.

[Mekboy]

It's just Alicia's default stance on psykers/slaaneshi worshippers/anyone who isn't her.

A combination of hubris, martial prowess and purity of agression makes for... interesting character relationships.

[Henry the 57th]

I'm glad Vul is so respectable in your eyes.

[watupwithdat]

Yeah, the Purity of Aggression being the cause of why Alicia should probably be testing Fear when looking upon Farius -- as we're treating it only affecting hostiles (usually enemies), and Alicia most likely being hostile towards everything, haha.

Safer for Alicia if she's not testing Fear, I guess.

I actually forgot to mention during the combat that Alicia should probably test Fear, as she wouldn't know that Farius was with Phin and therefor considered Alicia's enemy like most others in the room.