League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold

[toasty]

Originally Posted by Maeglin_Dubh

Talking about Zed.

Meant to quote his stuff on J4. Mb

[Math_Mage]

Originally Posted by toasty

A) the importance of learning how to play passive. NO ONE DOES THIS. If you are losing your lane, play passive. Its very hard to do, becuase you feel bad doing it, but you must. Playing passive is the key to winning a losing lane. Its all about good decision making.

Heck, I'm STILL learning how to do this.

Originally Posted by toasty

B) AD carries are very, very, easy to play against bad players. A Good AD Carry stands in the back. This would explain why our cait from the previous game was constantly in range of Moakai/Darius CC. it was really painful to watch Nunu/Cait stand so ****ing close to the enemy team for no reason at all. Its very frustrating for me to constantly say "Cait stand behind me Ill protect you" only to have to dive into the enemy team to save the carry.

AD carries may be easy to play against bad players, but it only takes one even worse teammate to create a fed opponent who can jump on your face.

Related: When is Zed viable? When he can go mid and have 10 kills in 15 minutes. I was Kog. That didn't end well.

Originally Posted by toasty

C) I'm beginning to anaylze my own play and realize how good I am, which also means how good players better than me are. Its really interesting that Riot discusses removing "burden of knowledge" all the time, yet I think League is basically impossible to play effectively without specific mechanics memorized. I was wondering to myself when I learned how to freeze lanes. Because, to be completely honest, I don't even remember anyone telling me or anything, I just realized you could freeze lane. I learned how to use bushes for aggro and/or skirmishing top lane (Pro tip: Top Lane is won by ganks, freezing lane, and bush control, unless you are darius and can just kill stuff)

I'll be honest, I cheated on this part. I read stuff about creep control and watched Shurelia's zone tutorial well before I hit level 30.

Originally Posted by toasty

Also: I'm waiting for the 2v1 meta to hit solo queue. Like, its really easy. I think the major issue with top lane assassin heroes is you can 2v1 them and beat them. The same issue exists middle lane. I never played DotA with jungling, so I'd like to know if lane swaps, trilanes, and stuff like that, how common was it in pug DOTA games?

edit: Holy Hell this was a big post.

Main issue with 1v2 mirror is you have to count on your top to volunteer to get beat up slightly less than you beat up the other guy. This will not always happen.

[toasty]

Originally Posted by Math_Mage

Heck, I'm STILL learning how to do this.

I am too. I still don't know so much about league, it amazes me how technical this game is, for a ****ing video game, it has the depth of any real sports game (this is of course why it IS an Esport).

But I know how to avoid going into lane 3 times and instantly dying each item to Darius all-ins. I know how to give up CS because I can't take the harass. I know how to ward and when to ward and where to ward and when buffs spawn. SO MANY 1400s DON'T KNOW THIS WTF.

AD carries may be easy to play against bad players, but it only takes one even worse teammate to create a fed opponent who can jump on your face.

That's why you turn the enemy heroes into farm. Look at the score on my recent Graves Game. I'm pretty sure everyone here can attest to how ****ty of a graves player I am.

I'll be honest, I cheated on this part. I read stuff about creep control and watched Shurelia's zone tutorial well before I hit level 30.

I watched that video. It didn't help me at all. Honestly I think it was efdf who showed me the importance of creep control. He sometimes offers to troll me in 1v1s and beat me with Yi or something dumb. Maybe it was also just hours and hours of watching streams and other players. I know I'm behind on the curve, but it is interesting to realize what high elo players did 2 months ago is often common place in Low-elo games.

Main issue with 1v2 mirror is you have to count on your top to volunteer to get beat up slightly less than you beat up the other guy. This will not always happen.

Yes. This is true. The thing is that ME personally, as someone who mains top lane, likes 2v1s. This is because I think I know how to play passive and deny myself CS so I don't die. This is because if I call for a 2v1 in a solo queue game there is a 90% chance the enemy will not be prepared for this. The difference between starting with AD runes and Boots 3 on Irelia and starting with HP/regen runes and cloth 5 on Irelia is huge. If I call for a 2v1 at this point in low elo metagame, no one will expect it. The beauty of this is everyone KNOWS what to do in a 2v1. I say "push your tower and swap" and my support instantly says "kor meta. okay." Sure, we did a pretty ****ty job of using this strat, but I think it worked. At the very least, I ended up ahead of farm of Darius and ultimately we negated Darius' early game strength because I never actually laned against him (I do this thing where once I take tower I just constantly shove and roam, it might not be the most XP/gold efficient thing, but I feel it ads a lot of pressure to the map, and its especially powerful if you run TP like I do).

I think the thing about 2v1s is few people know why they are good and don't want to diverge from the meta to much because its too cumbersome to communicate and any time you do something different, there is an extremely high chance of it not working out very well because of solo queueTM. In general, I'd say running a 2v1 REQUIRES communication outside of the norm. People are scared of that.

Of course, right now I'm 1200 elo instead of 1400. I was watching WingsofDeathx a few days ago and he mentioned how winning games at his reset elo is "like herding sheep," or something like that. I feel the same way. Every game I have to tell people EXACTLY what to do because I see mistakes everywhere. I haven't felt I've played with so many stupid people in a long time. The quality of the games going right before Season 3 was amazing: Everyone tryharded and every game was a 20 minute surrender. Everyone was grinding out games and I learned A LOT because of how serious everyone played (namely I learned how an intelligent jungler will win a bad top lane matchup with careful ganks: ZACH I'M LOOKING AT YOU BITCH WHY DON'T YOU GANK MY LANE).

Season 3 is ****. Instead of tryhards I have gotten several players who at one point I was convinced of were feeding. I've had people that are rude and angry. I've dodged like 4 games just because I didn't like how things turned out in champion select (there was this one guy who was just a total jerk, so I told him he was an I dodged as other players begged me to stay).

I mean, maybe its the elo. 1200 is where everyone thinks they are in elo hell. 1400 is where people know they are bad. 1600 is where the everyone thinks their good. Or something like that.

[Eldariel]

Lane swaps work really well in solo queue in general. We had a game where our top was Shen, enemy countered with Darius. Shen complained about the lane so we put the Shen in bottom and Leona/Corki top (they had Graves/Janna).

Shen died once, sure, but Darius was completely denied and Shen is kinda ****ton better than Darius when both are far behind on farm, and we got top tower first. Best part was that our team was entirely hopeless; people insisting on wandering around and getting caught, terrible teamplay and synergization and so on, but the early advantage and me getting to play Anivia got us through.

[Psyborg]

Had a game not long ago where I was jungling (I think Shyvana? Maybe Rengar. I forget.) Anyhow, our last-pick Shen demanded bot. So I talked our Vayne and Taric into just going top and 2v1ing. Their bot lane was a Caitlin, so Vayne agreed rather enthusiastically (fortunately, as Taric was REALLY unfamiliar and uncomfortable with the idea, but Vayne helped me talk him into it).

Vayne, of course, proceeded to free-farm like mad, and got a couple kills out of the deal when I counterganked their Xin at top.

Shen, of course, whined and moaned like crazy at having to solo lane after all, but actually played passive, farmed at tower, and (it turned out) was incredibly on-the-ball with his ultimate. I made sure to gank bot whenever I could to relieve pressure, and he generally handled it well and worked well with the team later on, too, especially for someone who was such a whiny bitch about the situation in the first place From talking to him in the postgame chat, it turns out he just hated the zero-margin-of-error snowballiness of 1v1 top and didn't want to get stuck there. (Why he picked shen then I have no idea, but w/e.)

And Taric was happy and relieved and didn't hate me for pressuring him into the deal :D

It was rather a satisfying game.

[NineThePuma]

Ugh.

I'm currently trying to reconnect to a game, and it is spitting out "your fire wall is stopping us from connecting!" messages at me.

I DON'T HAVE A FIRE WALL. I PLAYED AN HOUR OR TWO AGO. WHAT THE CRAP, LEAGUE, STOP BEING A DOUCHE.

[Eurus]

Man. I must just be bad at League. I can't seem to handle arranged 3s, lately. Standard "throw three moderately powerful champs together" teams just steamroll us about half the time -- just can't deal with the beef and gap-closing ability that most of them have. We've been trying to do CC+ADC, but maybe our positioning just isn't good enough?

[Eldariel]

Originally Posted by Eurus

Man. I must just be bad at League. I can't seem to handle arranged 3s, lately. Standard "throw three moderately powerful champs together" teams just steamroll us about half the time -- just can't deal with the beef and gap-closing ability that most of them have. We've been trying to do CC+ADC, but maybe our positioning just isn't good enough?

Might not be you, might be your teammates too. Or just your teamplay. Adumbration and I both perform quite well alone but for some reason whenever we play together we can't get anything right; we have almost polar opposite expectation on what we're planning to do in any given situation. And this in spite of us playing quite a bit together.

But yeah, positioning and laning are obviously big deals for ADC/CC teams. You have to keep parity or keep the gap small through the early game so enemy doesn't snowball, and then you autowin later on. At what point is the enemy gaining the advantages? The problems are probably there.

[Nadevoc]

All support team too good:

Spoiler

Admittedly their team had a bit of trolliness (Udyr/Mao bot lane and jungle Kennen).

Best part of the game is when we, the five supports, were milling around baron and the question came out, "Does anyone have a ward?" The answer, of course, was 'no'.

[Forrestfire]

Course, the only reason we won was because you guys were good enough to carry my suck in mid lane.

Also, sunlight + starcall = huge burst.

[McDougal]

Originally Posted by Nadevoc

All support team too good:

Spoiler

Admittedly their team had a bit of trolliness (Udyr/Mao bot lane and jungle Kennen).

Best part of the game is when we, the five supports, were milling around baron and the question came out, "Does anyone have a ward?" The answer, of course, was 'no'.

What the heck? I'm all for supports, but, uh, what?

[NineThePuma]

Originally Posted by Nadevoc

Best part of the game is when we, the five supports, were milling around baron and the question came out, "Does anyone have a ward?" The answer, of course, was 'no'.

I make it a point, mid-late game, to ALWAYS buy at least two wards on every B. Regardless of role.

Unless I'm playing an ADC, in which case, I make a point to, every 180 seconds, turn to my healbitch and go "Hey, you should have wards, why do you have no wards?"

[Temotei]

Originally Posted by McDougal

What the heck? I'm all for supports, but, uh, what?

Supports have great early games and they scale with no items. Plus, they have a ton of variety and auras and the like which makes your entire team awesome.

[Eldariel]

Originally Posted by McDougal

What the heck? I'm all for supports, but, uh, what?

All-support is probably the strongest out of all the "all-X" comps. All AP is close behind I guess, and then you have like All Bruiser and All AD competing for the Most Terrible spot (both perfectly workable, mind).

[PersonMan]

Originally Posted by McDougal

What the heck? I'm all for supports, but, uh, what?

The rationale I use is this:

One support can heal and help a carry. Two supports can heal and help two carries.

Five supports heal and help everyone simultaneously. They cannot lose!

Or something. My only experience with penta-support was a game I played (premade 3 + premade 2 of randoms) where we won in 20 minutes...by destroying their Nexus. Soraka + other healing champs = unstoppable push.

[toasty]

Originally Posted by Eldariel

All-support is probably the strongest out of all the "all-X" comps. All AP is close behind I guess, and then you have like All Bruiser and All AD competing for the Most Terrible spot (both perfectly workable, mind).

All Bruiser works if you cheat a little.

For instance, Urgot, Ali, Galio, Irelia, Leona is actually a really strong team, and would be theoretically viable if Urgot hadn't been nerfed so hard.

[Forrestfire]

I think in this case it was more of

"Hey, we should play a game with all supports"
"...why?"
"Because!"
"Ok"

[Eldariel]

Originally Posted by toasty

All Bruiser works if you cheat a little.

For instance, Urgot, Ali, Galio, Irelia, Leona is actually a really strong team, and would be theoretically viable if Urgot hadn't been nerfed so hard.

Aye, but you're cheating the hell outta the exercise at that point.

[Winterwind]

Originally Posted by toasty

B) AD carries are very, very, easy to play against bad players. A Good AD Carry stands in the back. This would explain why our cait from the previous game was constantly in range of Moakai/Darius CC. it was really painful to watch Nunu/Cait stand so ****ing close to the enemy team for no reason at all. Its very frustrating for me to constantly say "Cait stand behind me Ill protect you" only to have to dive into the enemy team to save the carry.

I think the reason - well, one of the main reasons, anyhow - why bad AD carries keep getting too close to the fight is that they think they have to focus the enemy squishies. Everybody always says, "All focus Annie!" or "All focus Ashe!" or such; until you get fairly high up, nobody is aware that "All" actually means "All except the AD carry" in this context. So, I think you might have more success in making them stand back if you explained that to them; sadly, they probably won't accept it without the full logic behind why the AD carry shouldn't be focusing the squishies (unless they are way out of position), and there's hardly enough time to type all of that out during a game.

[toasty]

Originally Posted by Winterwind

I think the reason - well, one of the main reasons, anyhow - why bad AD carries keep getting too close to the fight is that they think they have to focus the enemy squishies. Everybody always says, "All focus Annie!" or "All focus Ashe!" or such; until you get fairly high up, nobody is aware that "All" actually means "All except the AD carry" in this context. So, I think you might have more success in making them stand back if you explained that to them; sadly, they probably won't accept it without the full logic behind why the AD carry shouldn't be focusing the squishies (unless they are way out of position), and there's hardly enough time to type all of that out during a game.

I think its more they have no idea how to trade in lane.

[Godskook]

Originally Posted by Forrestfire

Course, the only reason we won was because you guys were good enough to carry my suck in mid lane.

For reference:

1.You really can't put off AP as long as you did, buying Catalyst+Tear. Combined with the lack of MR, you had a rough time being threatening to Cass.

2.Athene's is really strong right now, especially with Soraka's shred from starcall. CDR helps a lot too, since its the stat Riot expects her to scale with.

[toasty]

Originally Posted by Godskook

For reference:

1.You really can't put off AP as long as you did, buying Catalyst+Tear. Combined with the lack of MR, you had a rough time being threatening to Cass.

2.Athene's is really strong right now, especially with Soraka's shred from starcall. CDR helps a lot too, since its the stat Riot expects her to scale with.

Alternatively you can go the route of Sorc/Haunting Guise/Abyssal for uber shred.

[Godskook]

Originally Posted by toasty

Alternatively you can go the route of Sorc/Haunting Guise/Abyssal for uber shred.

If he had been doing better, sure. But Haunting Guise is rough on a build when you're behind in gold, while Abyssal's range made it useless in the context of that game, at least during the laning phase.

[sonofzeal]

Originally Posted by toasty

All Bruiser works if you cheat a little.

For instance, Urgot, Ali, Galio, Irelia, Leona is actually a really strong team, and would be theoretically viable if Urgot hadn't been nerfed so hard.

Urgot will be fine as of Season 3. I think he's a lot better than most people expect - harasses well, is tanky while still building mostly damage, and that ult opens up a lot of really brutal plays. There's very few ults where you can look at someone at full health running away from you and say "go directly to dead, do not pass Go, do not collect $200." Especially if your team's behind you.

I mean, seriously, look at it. According to the wiki, nothing blocks the position reversal component. And at 850 range at max rank, it's pretty darn easy to get off, especially since it's targetted instead of skillshot; if Urgot wants you out of position, Urgot GETS you out of position. Not just that, but the 40% slow for three seconds practically ensures that you stay out of position, especially since Urgot himself is likely blocking your most likely avenue of escape. Finally... +120 armor AND magic resist, for five seconds? On a guy whose passive reduces people's damage substantially, and who has a seven-second shield? Whooooooof.

It's versatile too. You can pull someone way inside your turret and then hammer them all the way out (while they're 40% slowed under a turret already, remember). You can switch with a prospective ganker to completely ruin any chances of picking up a kill. And it's a great initiation tool in teamfights because the massive slow on one side and the massive durability boost on the other pretty much ensures that the exchange is favorable.

That's a massive amount of utility that isn't going to depend on gold balance. He's not an ADC, and doesn't scale as well as one into end-game, but his E and Q both have great ranges and can wear people down, and the armor burn on E and the damage debuff on Q/AA help the whole team.

I don't understand why people think Urgot is unviable, at a time when tanky DPS are considered king. He's got spammable damage, he's durable, and he brings a lot of utility to the team. I realize he's got his flaws (fairly slow, no mobility aside from ult, damage doesn't scale well past lvl 9 unless he's snowballing hard, tankiness comes from situational sources so he can be burst down sometimes, etc). But I do think he's reasonable.



(edit) The reason I say Season 3 is not specifically because of the new items, but because of the pricing changes. Urgot likes AD and doesn't care about AS, so making AD 10% cheaper and AS 20% more expensive hurts most AD characters overall but actually helps him. And more Brutalizer options don't hurt either, as that's an absolutely fantastic item on him.

[ZeroNumerous]

Originally Posted by sonofzeal

I don't understand why people think Urgot is unviable, at a time when tanky DPS are considered king.

He doesn't have a place. He's generally run to counter a super-squishy hard carry like Vayne/Kog'Maw, but doing that puts your team out of an ADC unless you run Supportgot.

If you send him top, then the many high-mobility high-DPS top-laners will wreck him. And those top-laners without high-mobility generally out-sustain his damage. And he'll always be a gank target in solo lanes due to lacking inherent escapes.

Wanna send him mid? He can't roam as effectively as many current "shove-lane-then-gank" mids. While it's possible that he'll be a serious surprise to anyone in blind pick, a draft pick just counters him with a hard-pushing champion(Karth, Morgana, Malz) who roams elsewhere for more farm or possible kills.

Jungle? He's got a pretty bad clear time, and his pre-6 ganks are substantially worse than even Warwick's.

[sonofzeal]

Originally Posted by ZeroNumerous

He doesn't have a place. He's generally run to counter a super-squishy hard carry like Vayne/Kog'Maw, but doing that puts your team out of an ADC unless you run Supportgot.

If you send him top, then the many high-mobility high-DPS top-laners will wreck him. And those top-laners without high-mobility generally out-sustain his damage. And he'll always be a gank target in solo lanes due to lacking inherent escapes.

Wanna send him mid? He can't roam as effectively as many current "shove-lane-then-gank" mids. While it's possible that he'll be a serious surprise to anyone in blind pick, a draft pick just counters him with a hard-pushing champion(Karth, Morgana, Malz) who roams elsewhere for more farm or possible kills.

Jungle? He's got a pretty bad clear time, and his pre-6 ganks are substantially worse than even Warwick's.

I can see that. I mean, I've seen him played as an ADC in tournament games (here, ended in a victory, against TPA), but I agree that's a risky gambit because he doesn't scale like a proper ADC. And Supportgot is an odd duck as well. Still, I think that's his major problem, that he can't be slotted in neatly as another interchangeable ACD / 0-cs Support. I don't think that means he's too weak though, just that he's someone to choose for a particular purpose, rather than just as a go-to. That could be either strong early pressure to try and shut down hypercarries like Vayne and Kogmaw and go for an early win, or psyching the opponent out since he can function in several capacities (I'm told midgot counters Morgana and a few others, and I could see topgot's longrange ranged harass working well against some there too), and bring utility even if he falls behind. I think there's something to be said for being able to flexibly laneswap or roleswap to throw off the other team, especially with someone they're probably not used to fighting against.



As a side note... what the heck was SGS doing that game? Jarvan, Lulu, Urgot, Karma? Troll comp? Or was there a method to the madness? They definitely seemed to have gone out of their way to choose unusual champs, but it worked for them. And I can see how Jarvan's dashing powaz plus Lulu's ult lead to big things happening. That makes sense, as far as teamfights go, and it worked for them in the big push up bot. But I'm not quite sure why they went with Urgot and Karma for that particular game, and the commentary isn't in English. Analysis?

[Mephit]

Originally Posted by sonofzeal

I mean, seriously, look at it. According to the wiki, nothing blocks the position reversal component.

I have some doubts about this. Both in my own play and while spectating tournaments (back when Urgot was still broken and saw a lot of play), I've never seen an instance where QSS did not stop the swap. It might've been coincidence and Urgot could've eaten some cc every time.

Urgot's not all that popular because he's not visually appealing. I think he deserves more play than he gets right now, but a lot of people don't enjoy playing with a champion like him.
He used to be really great, but he was toned down over 2-3 patches, and now he's just not that tanky and doesn't deal that much damage anymore, and the range on his ult got cut significantly.

Edit: Doublechecked the wikia, the page on QSS says the swap will not happen if you break the suppression.

SGS has played this comp before; notice how every champion on there has a shield. It's fittingly called the Shield Comp, and AP Karma, Jarvan, and Lulu are the core. Jarvan initiates and shields are stacked on him so he can eat the front-up burst and still survive. In this case, Jax can go all-in too with shields stacked on him and his ult up for even more survivability. If they succeed in taking out the AD carry before anyone important drops, they can clean up because the team is so tanky.

[sonofzeal]

Originally Posted by Mephit

I have some doubts about this. Both in my own play and while spectating tournaments (back when Urgot was still broken and saw a lot of play), I've never seen an instance where QSS did not stop the swap. It might've been coincidence and Urgot could've eaten some cc every time.

The wiki doesn't actually mention QSS, so maybe. But Oranges, Black Shield, Ragnarok, and Spell Shields all fail to stop the movement portion, even if they break the suppression.

(edit)

Originally Posted by Mephit

Edit: Doublechecked the wikia, the page on QSS says the swap will not happen if you break the suppression.

Ah, I was looking under ability details.

SGS has played this comp before; notice how every champion on there has a shield. It's fittingly called the Shield Comp, and AP Karma, Jarvan, and Lulu are the core. Jarvan initiates and shields are stacked on him so he can eat the front-up burst and still survive. In this case, Jax can go all-in too with shields stacked on him and his ult up for even more survivability. If they succeed in taking out the AD carry before anyone important drops, they can clean up because the team is so tanky.

Hmm... interesting! Yeah, Karma-Lulu-Jarvan seems to be a good combo. And since the core power isn't coming from the ADC, Urgot's presence there as a way to at least partially shut down the other team's ADC makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

[Eldariel]

Originally Posted by sonofzeal

Hmm... interesting! Yeah, Karma-Lulu-Jarvan seems to be a good combo. And since the core power isn't coming from the ADC, Urgot's presence there as a way to at least partially shut down the other team's ADC makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

It's just a bruiser team with two super shield champs (Karma and Lulu) to make everybody unkillable. Urgot is the classic AD-carry shutting down bruiser.

[Cogwheel]

So apparently AP Pantheon/support Wukong is the best lane.

I was Wukong. So much fun.