Spells: What to Ban?

[peacenlove]

Oooh Oooh please add spells/powers/mysteries with an area of effect of 1 mile or greater!
Because it is soooo fun for a DM applying the spell's effects to settlements / areas / whatever he hasn't conceived of yet.

[Hanuman]

If they are insincere then atonement doesn't work.

How many thousands of gold of spell materials do your players carry?

You don't need to ban a resurrection spell, just make it's components very rare.
I mean, how many backwater towns are going to be carrying around sizable diamonds anyway, let alone public-access stores in large towns.

When players can't find rarities then it adds a layer of intrigue to getting them, and as such makes them more rewarding to gain, more fun to find, and more interesting to watch them being used.

You could even make it even more special, like have it engraved and fully clasped into an adamantium holy symbol or something.

[toapat]

Originally Posted by Arcanist

*snip*

Wish to preset your race, as well as granting you the typical birth - Young Adult experiences of the race (which can grant say, drow's +2 int/wis and weapon profficiencies). then Reincarnate. that is how Retraining your race works. After all, wish's main purpose is to be the Ultimate Metamagic.


if the granted proficiencies (and a number of other class granted benefits that can be obtained from feats) can be considered to occupy feat slots, the feat slots they occupy are not valid slots for which Abyssal herritage feats can occupy, as they are not general feat slots, but specialize feat slots.

the most DCFS targets a single character, as far as i understand, can obtain, is 17, with an Elf Rogue who takes bonus feats for every rogue ability

[NichG]

I'd like to say that I think its good to both say at the table 'please don't bring in anything too cheesy' and to have a pre-emptive ban list of the worst contenders. The reason being, some people like being able to go all-out with their builds or ideas. Having to constantly ask themselves 'is this going to far?' can take the fun out of it. If you make it clear what kinds of things are going too far, and also remove particular things that have been problematic in the past, it helps a lot there.

As far as spells to ban, hm... I'd add Masochism/Sadism to the list, due to the fact that hitpoints tend to be nonlinear with level (due to Con buff items), and so the benefit of the spells scales superlinearly. Similarly, I personally have an issue with the various spells that do things like add +20 to a skill check (Guidance of the Avatar) or 5+CL up to 15 (Divine Insight) or +30 (Glibness) and so on - I didn't ban them in my current campaign and I'm regretting it as everyone has sort of reached a glum realization that skill investment is irrelevant when one of the the party's casters can just pop Divine Insight and automatically do better than anyone at their best skill. These aren't of the 'stinky cheese' variety, just things that make other parts of the game irrelevant by their existence. They won't break the game though.

[Togo]

Glitterdust. - it's notably better than other spells of the same level, and arguably better than similar spells a level higher.

Anything that does attribute damage (moon bolt, shivering touch etc.) If you want to keep them replace with an attribute penalty, since they generally only get bad with multiple castings, twinned etc.

Glibness is a possible contender. Whether or not the spell is broken depends a lot on how you interpret it, but ban or not, it's well worth discussing how this would work in practice.

[Suddo]

Are you only looking for spells? I personally think, outside of maybe the list Tippy posted, no spells can compete with the brokenness of renewable spells. What do I mean, I mean automatic resetting traps of X. And it doesn't matter what it will always break the campaign. I also think eternal wands are pushing it but that's more personal preference.

As for spells, beyond shivering touch I'd say you have it well made and I do tend to agree with you that Time Magic tends to be silly. Oh and get rid of wish.

And Genesis is a spell I'd just have "gentleman" agreement that it spawns a plane with no valuable materials, no time distortion and nothing else interesting. I mean having your own interdimensional place is just cool and bringing in materials should be fine. Hell you could make it so if you bring any of the "dirt" from inside the plane outside it poofs.

Oh are you using Psionics because that's probably its own thread.

[Emperor Tippy]

Originally Posted by toapat

the most DCFS targets a single character, as far as i understand, can obtain, is 17, with an Elf Rogue who takes bonus feats for every rogue ability

Nope. Elf Fighter or Feat Rogue that takes Vow of Poverty at level 1 and Chaos Shuffles all feats at level 20.

[toapat]

Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy

Nope. Elf Fighter or Feat Rogue that takes Vow of Poverty at level 1 and Chaos Shuffles all feats at level 20.

that combo doesnt work. DCFS disables exaulted feats (even though it is chaotic), and you loose the Vow of Poverty bonus feats when you loose the effects of Vow of Poverty.

you cant DCFS fighter bonus feats because you cant replace them with abyssal heritage feats. no Heritage feats have the Fighter bonus feat special (which really should have been a descriptor). If you can embrace out the fighter bonus feats, you cant shun them back in because you dont have the heritage feat to shun, because you are targetting an invalid feat slot for it.

just because it is a bonus feat slot, doesnt mean that you can DCFS it, which is why elf normal rogue with 2 flaws gets the most slots for DCFS

[Gavinfoxx]

This is an... okay... place to start...

It's very arena-centric, though, and wasn't designed as a more standard way of banning things, and most certainly wasn't designed for a NORMAL game. So be very careful when using the banlist:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113644

[Emperor Tippy]

Originally Posted by toapat

that combo doesnt work. DCFS disables exaulted feats (even though it is chaotic), and you loose the Vow of Poverty bonus feats when you loose the effects of Vow of Poverty.

Wrong. Chaotic acts don't cost you exalted feats, only evil acts. Neither Embrace or Shun are evil descriptor spells.

you cant DCFS fighter bonus feats because you cant replace them with abyssal heritage feats. no Heritage feats have the Fighter bonus feat special (which really should have been a descriptor). If you can embrace out the fighter bonus feats, you cant shun them back in because you dont have the heritage feat to shun, because you are targetting an invalid feat slot for it.

Utterly incorrect. You can exchange any feat that you currently have (regardless of how you got it, what restrictions are on it, or where the feat came from) for ANY Abyssal Heritor feat that you currently qualify for.

Shun the Dark Chaos can turn ANY Abyssal Heritor feat into ANY other feat that you currently qualify for (regardless of where the feat slot came from initially).

just because it is a bonus feat slot, doesnt mean that you can DCFS it, which is why elf normal rogue with 2 flaws gets the most slots for DCFS

You are making up rules whole cloth.


If you have a feat (regardless of the feat or how you got it) then you Embrace the Dark Chaos it and turn it into any Abyssal Heritor feat that you currently meet the prerequisites for. If you have any Abyssal Heritor feat (regardless of the feat or how you got it) then you can Shun the Dark Chaos it and turn it into any other feat in the game that you currently meet the prerequisites for.

[Gnaeus]

Originally Posted by ShriekingDrake

Enhance Wildshape]

Really? The most common way i have seen it used it to turn into bat and actually get blindsight/sense or otherwise get animal senses. Has it been being abused in your games? I'm sure there is a way to break the heck out of it, but its normal use seems quite rational to me.

[dextercorvia]

{scrubbed}
@Arcanist: Re: why you can't DCFS class weapon proficiencies -- They aren't (unless I'm missing one somewhere) granted as feats.

@OP: (I know there is some redundancy) Streamers, Celerity and Greater, Shapechange, Arcane Fusion and Greater, and Arcane Spellsurge.

[toapat]

Originally Posted by dextercorvia

@Arcanist: Re: why you can't DCFS class weapon proficiencies -- They aren't (unless I'm missing one somewhere) granted as feats.

If you were to consider them as feats, here is the thing:

You cant trade them out with Embrace, not because they are not feats, but because the prerequisite, of being a feat slot into which an Abyssal herritor feat can normally be placed, is not met. I do not believe in 3.5 though there is a living creature which has levels of <class with bonus feats here>, but lacks HD granted feats.

Rogue ability bonus feats, Elf granted profficiencies, and other unrestricted bonus feats are allowed targets for DCFS.

Originally Posted by Embrace the Dark Chaos

The subject immediately gains one Abyssal heritor feat for which it qualifies, chosen by you at the time of casting.
If the subject does not qualify for the designated feat, the spell fails.

There wouldnt be a line about not qualifying if there was not some restriction on the spell. The line, is there specifically to reinforce the fact that the granted feat is being granted as though it was a normal HD granted feat.

[Seharvepernfan]

If you're having magic problems, I feel bad for you, son. I got 99 problems, but my sig ain't one.

[Emperor Tippy]

Originally Posted by toapat

If you were to consider them as feats, here is the thing:

You cant trade them out with Embrace, not because they are not feats, but because the prerequisite, of being a feat slot into which an Abyssal herritor feat can normally be placed, is not met. I do not believe in 3.5 though there is a living creature which has levels of <class with bonus feats here>, but lacks HD granted feats.

Um no. Elf actually grants the feats, everything else simply grants the same benefits as the feats but not the feats themselves. Embrace does not require that the feat being replaced could have instead been an Abyssal Herritor feat.

There wouldnt be a line about not qualifying if there was not some restriction on the spell. The line, is there specifically to reinforce the fact that the granted feat is being granted as though it was a normal HD granted feat.

No, the only thing necessary to qualify for a feat is to meet the feats prerequisites. That is all.

[Arcanist]

Originally Posted by dextercorvia

Thank you Tippy.

@Arcanist: Re: why you can't DCFS class weapon proficiencies -- They aren't (unless I'm missing one somewhere) granted as feats.

No, thats not what I'm questioning. I'm asking where he is getting the terms "Occupied" and "Granted" feat, because for some reason I can't find them in any book

[The Redwolf]

I have a question since you guys mentioned wishing and reincarnating. Is it a given use of the wish spell to give you back the body you had before death or is that something the DM could mess with? I've been wondering about that for a while and I thought I saw somewhere that it was an approved one, but I couldn't figure out where or why...

[toapat]

Originally Posted by The Redwolf

I have a question since you guys mentioned wishing and reincarnating. Is it a given use of the wish spell to give you back the body you had before death or is that something the DM could mess with? I've been wondering about that for a while and I thought I saw somewhere that it was an approved one, but I couldn't figure out where or why...

That is a perfectly legitimate use of wish

It is also a completely terrible one. The point of Wish+Reincarnate is to not be screwed by terrible racial physical atteribute modifiers. Wishing in the standard life experience for the race in question, is optional typically/

Tippy, i said if as in relation to granted/class, not racial, weapon proficiency. Elf proficiencies are non-locked feat slots, and can be traded sucessfully with DCFS, fighter feats cant be traded without wish. Which is honestly faster, if not as XP cheap

[Venger]

Originally Posted by Man on Fire

And list of spells that make meele hopeless against casters would be good to know too, I need to know what never give my npcs.

ironguard, greater ironguard, and ghostform are the biggest offenders. if you want people to have fun playing melee in your game, do not

Originally Posted by Togo

Glitterdust. - it's notably better than other spells of the same level, and arguably better than similar spells a level higher.

Anything that does attribute damage (moon bolt, shivering touch etc.) If you want to keep them replace with an attribute penalty, since they generally only get bad with multiple castings, twinned etc.

Glibness is a possible contender. Whether or not the spell is broken depends a lot on how you interpret it, but ban or not, it's well worth discussing how this would work in practice.

blindness is easy to gain immunity to (undead, construct) and many monsters, even from level 1 have other senses (scent, tremorsence, blindsense, blindsight) so glitterdust isn't exactly a game-breaker. anything that you really want to use it against is probably immune anyway.

absolutely disagree with "anything that deals ability damage" that's just not really needed. tell me "poison" is gamebreaking for its level honestly.

I think you may have a point if you're in a low to low-mid op game about spells that deal ability damage even if you make the save (the only reason people get so upset about moon bolt, even though it only deals str damage, the ability that it hurst least for losing, especially for monsters, many of which are str machines) or if you have psionics, ego whip, which, targeting cha, is much more dangerous, or ray of stupidity for spells, since it bonks int, which many monsters are lacking, which has no save at all.

glibness has potential for hilarity, but requires some good roleplaying and planning. the chief argument against it is that it's nonmagical so doesn't allow a save and doesn't detect as magic. anything immune to mind affecting gets a pass, which is most of the hard monsters. what do you mean about "how you interpret it" ? do you mean like what's hard to believe and what's unbelievable for the DC mod?

Originally Posted by Arcanist

1st of all. I love this idea, due to the sheer amount of lulzy reaction a player would get at that

2nd. I hate this idea if I am the player



The cleaver idea is to play an Elf. Specialize in Divination. Chaos Shuffle your Racial weapon proficiencies (which are indeed feats! PM if you disagree!) away to gain the Arcane Transfiguration feat tree. You are now a specialized wizard without being a specialized wizard!

This also works for your weapon proficiencies from your class.

you can't do all that at first level, though, as the second 2 in the tree require specialist wiz 5 and 10 respectively. that many levels of wizard to gt your 1 banned school back is something of a bitter pill to swallow.

[Emperor Tippy]

Originally Posted by toapat

Tippy, i said if as in relation to granted/class, not racial, weapon proficiency. Elf proficiencies are non-locked feat slots, and can be traded sucessfully with DCFS, fighter feats cant be traded without wish. Which is honestly faster, if not as XP cheap

There is no such thing as a "locked" or "non-locked" feat slot.

You can't Chaos Shuffle most racial or class proficiencies because you don't gain a feat (you gain the same benefits that the feat(s) provide but not the feats themselves) but if you have a feat (regardless of how you got it, what it is, or anything else) then you can turn it into any Abyssal Heritor feat that you currently meet the prerequisites for with Embrace the Dark Chaos. You can then trade that Abyssal Heritor feat for any other feat that you currently qualify for.

A fighter's bonus feats can be Shuffled because you actually receive the feat. A fighter's weapon and armor proficiencies can not be Shuffled because you do not have the feats.

[Alabenson]

Honestly, this arguement is one of the major reasons that the Dark Chaos Shuffle spells are among the very few that I outright ban.
Assuming that you allow feat retraining, the DCS has virtually no non-cheesy functions.

[Slipperychicken]

Originally Posted by Alabenson

Assuming that you allow feat retraining, the DCS has virtually no non-cheesy functions.

Same goes for Psychic Reformation. If that power is in the world (and you can just get a Psion to manifest it on you), there is really no reason to allow DCS.

EDIT: Does Psychic Reformation require that the character have qualified for the (new) feats/skills at the level it's changing, or just at the time of manifesting? If qualifications only matter at time of manifesting, characters could get feats which they wouldn't otherwise have qualified for.

[ShriekingDrake]

OK, so I just looked up "Embrace the Dark Chaos" and "Shun the Dark Chaos". From what I can tell the combo is broken and should be prevented. Seems the easiest thing to do is ban one of them, say, Shun the Dark Chaos and the problem is solved.

[toapat]

Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy

There is no such thing as a "locked" or "non-locked" feat slot.

You can't Chaos Shuffle most racial or class proficiencies because you don't gain a feat (you gain the same benefits that the feat(s) provide but not the feats themselves) but if you have a feat (regardless of how you got it, what it is, or anything else) then you can turn it into any Abyssal Heritor feat that you currently meet the prerequisites for with Embrace the Dark Chaos. You can then trade that Abyssal Heritor feat for any other feat that you currently qualify for.

A fighter's bonus feats can be Shuffled because you actually receive the feat. A fighter's weapon and armor proficiencies can not be Shuffled because you do not have the feats.

Yes, you can target any feat with Embrace

Getting the Abyssal Heritor feat though, is only true if the feat slot is a general feat slot. Fighters, Featrogues, Wizards, and most every other class that gets free feats, other then ranger, get featslots which can not receive the Heritor feat. Im using locked/unlocked as shorthand for general use or specific use featslots, not as terminology.

The reason the line for disqualification is there is specifically so that Poison Claws (the other ones that require an Abyssal Heritor feat do not say they require a separate feat like poison claws, and dont invalidate themselves when shuffled into the previous feat's slot) cant overwrite one of its prerequisite 2 Abyssal heritor feats. Thing is, it is not worded specifically for that, and so that rule applies to all 12. Feat slots, while they are typically just write it down and forget, still retain their type when used, although class granted feats are an edge case where the rules are not specific enough asto whether they are irreplaceable or not, as retraining only covers character choice replacements.

Originally Posted by PHB2, P192: Retraining: subsection: The Process

Change one class feature option to another legal one. The new option must represent a choice that you could have made at the same level as you made the original choice. Also, the new choice cant make any of your later choices illegal--though it might automatically change class feature accuired later if they are based on initial choice

Bolded is where im correct, strike-through is where the spell specifically overrides this

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by toapat

Yes, you can target any feat with Embrace

Getting the Abyssal Heritor feat though, is only true if the feat slot is a general feat slot. Fighters, Featrogues, Wizards, and most every other class that gets free feats, other then ranger, get featslots which can not receive the Heritor feat. Im using locked/unlocked as shorthand for general use or specific use featslots, not as terminology.

The reason the line for disqualification is there is specifically so that Poison Claws (the other ones that require an Abyssal Heritor feat do not say they require a separate feat like poison claws, and dont invalidate themselves when shuffled into the previous feat's slot) cant overwrite one of its prerequisite 2 Abyssal heritor feats. Thing is, it is not worded specifically for that, and so that rule applies to all 12. Feat slots, while they are typically just write it down and forget, still retain their type when used, although class granted feats are an edge case where the rules are not specific enough asto whether they are irreplaceable or not, as retraining only covers character choice replacements.



Bolded is where im correct, strike-through is where the spell specifically overrides this

Your quote has absolutely nothing to do with either of the dark chaos spells. It's a completely seperate mechanic that has no bearing on this little aside you've gotten into.

[nedz]

What you guys are debating is a well known TO trick, which requires you to mis-read the rules. Basically whilst you can spend a feat on a weapon proficiency, this does not mean that a weapon proficiency is the same as a feat. I forget the name of this particular logical fallacy, but it is also very well known. Mathematically: A includes B does not imply that B includes A.

[toapat]

Originally Posted by nedz

What you guys are debating is a well known TO trick, which requires you to mis-read the rules. Basically whilst you can spend a feat on a weapon proficiency, this does not mean that a weapon proficiency is the same as a feat. I forget the name of this particular logical fallacy, but it is also very well known. Mathematically: A includes B does not imply that B includes A.

actually, we already agreed class granted proficiencies dont count, but elf proficiencies do.

Hes arguing that fighter feats are valid targets for heritage feats from Embrace the dark chaos (which they arent, nor are exaulted bonus feats, or featrogue feats, or wizard feats)

interestingly, if you work backwards through ranger, all of their combat feats are valid targets though.

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

Your quote has absolutely nothing to do with either of the dark chaos spells. It's a completely seperate mechanic that has no bearing on this little aside you've gotten into.

Those are the replacement rules. being under a subsection for rebuilding characters at level up doesnt change that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by toapat

actually, we already agreed class granted proficiencies dont count, but elf proficiencies do.

Hes arguing that fighter feats are valid targets for heritage feats from Embrace the dark chaos (which they arent, nor are exaulted bonus feats, or featrogue feats, or wizard feats)

interestingly, if you work backwards through ranger, all of their combat feats are valid targets though.



Those are the replacement rules. being under a subsection for rebuilding characters at level up doesnt change that.

Since the retraining rules are completely optional, and the default is that there are no replacement rules; yeah, it kinda does change things.

[toapat]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

Since the retraining rules are completely optional, and the default is that there are no replacement rules; yeah, it kinda does change things.

The retraining rules are only a confirmation of part of the rules. While they are not themselves mandatory rules, they clarify certain internal conditions of the game. Those being that feat slots retain their type, list restrictions*, and level after being expended.

I may not be using the proper terms, granted. these are rather difficult terms to understand what they may have been called


*Only relevant part of the DCFS argument

[Kazyan]

toapat, properties of feat slots are sort of a mental construct we use to understand building characters better. However, if you have Improved Grapple, and do not go into the retraining rules the game does not care if it's a Monk bonus feat, Fighter bonus feat, or general HD feat. The feat is just a feat until something starts mucking with the feat's source.

Embrace the Dark Chaos does not talk about the feat's source in any way. It turns a feat you currently have into an Abyssal Heritor feat you qualify for at the moment. If you got Improved Grapple from Fighter levels, the spell would have the exact some effect as if you had gotten Improved Grapple from reaching level 9. Memory of the source is not preserved in this new Abyssal Heritor feat--why would it? The game doesn't deal with the source of a feat until you use the retraining rules.