Dark Chaos Shuffle

[lunar2]

so, i was reading in another thread about what can and can't be traded out by these spells.

class based armor proficiencies are in:

Originally Posted by PHB pg. 89

ARMOR PROFICIENCY (LIGHT) [GENERAL]
You are proficient with light armor (see Table 7–6: Armor and
Shields, page 123).
Benefit: When you wear a type of armor with which you are
proficient, the armor check penalty for that armor applies only to
Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Pick
Pocket, and Tumble checks.
Normal: A character who is wearing armor with which she is not
proficient applies its armor check penalty to attack rolls and to all
skill checks that involve moving, including Ride.
Special: All characters except wizards, sorcerers, and monks
automatically have Armor Proficiency (light) as a bonus feat. They
need not select it.

relevant part bolded. classes that grant armor proficiency grant it in the form of a bonus feat. a similar clause is in place on medium and heavy armor proficiency.

elven martial weapon proficiency is in. it specifically is called out as bonus feats.

and, of course, anything that gives you bonus feats is in. legacy weapon + DCFS seems like infinite feats.

so, i have a question. what would you do with an elf VOP fighter 20 with 2 flaws that had a legacy item? just for clarity, lets say this elf retrained his flaw feats to be sacred vow and vow of poverty so there's no conflict with the legacy item.

7 feats from levels. 4 from elf, 2 from flaws, 11 from VOP, 11 from fighter, 3 from legacy item. what do you do with 38 feats?

[kitcik]

Originally Posted by lunar2

what do you do with 38 feats?

Riverdance.

[Arcanist]

Originally Posted by lunar2

what do you do with 38 feats?

Trade them all in for a Klondike bar.

[Morbis Meh]

Bet them all on black!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Skip all of that, cast Heroics, Shuffle that to a different feat, when Heroics ends the feat it granted is already gone so nothing is lost. The only limit to the number of feats you get is the minor XP cost of the Shuffle.

[mattie_p]

Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou

Skip all of that, cast Heroics, Shuffle that to a different feat, when Heroics ends the feat it granted is already gone so nothing is lost. The only limit to the number of feats you get is the minor XP cost of the Shuffle.

Make sure you take dodge as your first shuffled feat, and designate the DM as your opponent. Beware if he has Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill, as books will be heading in your direction.

Please only save that for the cheesiest of games.

Are we stuck with 38 feats as a fighter? Fighter 20 isn't much to work with. Even with 38 feats, still not equal to, say, a warblade, much less almost any caster.

[nedz]

Originally Posted by Morbis Meh

Bet them all on black!

But this ball normally lands on 0 ─ Rule 0.

[Arcanist]

Originally Posted by mattie_p

Please only save that for the cheesiest of games.

This is gtitp. We're always playing the cheesiest of games.

[lunar2]

2 levels of monk gets 2 more feats (lose 1 fighter feat, gain 3 feats from monk).
40
i forgot to count armor and shield proficiencies, which is 5 more feats.
45
a 3 level dip in ranger after shuffling armor gets 4 more feats (lose another fighter bonus, gain track, endurance, combat style, light armor proficiency, and shield proficiency from ranger)
49

[toapat]

1: Feat rogue can get +4 feats on fighter
2: Embrace the dark chaos doesnt work in that way, as it requires the granted feat to be legally allowed where it is going. Fighter/Feat Rogue bonus feats thus cant be used
3: Items confer the benefits of feats, not the feats themselves.

[Darius Kane]

Not this again...

[papr_weezl8472]

Originally Posted by toapat

1: Feat rogue can get +4 feats on fighter
2: Embrace the dark chaos doesnt work in that way, as it requires the granted feat to be legally allowed where it is going. Fighter/Feat Rogue bonus feats thus cant be used
3: Items confer the benefits of feats, not the feats themselves.

Point 1 is valid, point 2 I'm not going to touch. As to point 3: a character with a Weapon of Legacy can undergo rituals to attune to/unlock its power. Mechanically, the character is granted the Least, Lesser, or Greater Legacy feat upon completion of the proper ritual. It is not a power of the item itself.

[lunar2]

Originally Posted by toapat

1: Feat rogue can get +4 feats on fighter
2: Embrace the dark chaos doesnt work in that way, as it requires the granted feat to be legally allowed where it is going. Fighter/Feat Rogue bonus feats thus cant be used
3: Items confer the benefits of feats, not the feats themselves.

1. where is feat rogue? we can add that in for some more feats.

2. nope. the spell just says you have to meet the prerequisites for the abyssal heritor feat, it says nothing about the feat you are replacing. i understand your position, but the spell doesn't actually say that, so while it may be RAI, it isn't RAW.

3. undergoing the legacy ritual actually gives you a bonus feat, if i was trying to trade out benefits equivalent to feats, i could get dozens of weapon proficiencies from fighter, and ranger, and monk. there's cheese (the spell combo we're referring to, for example), and then there's cheating.

[Randomguy]

I wonder what most feats you can get from class levels alone is...

Fighter 2/Wizard 1 (scribe scroll)/Monk 2/Feat Rogue 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Wu Jen 1/soulknife 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Psion 1/Swordsage 1/Crusader 1/ Swashbuckler 1/Master Thrower 5.

So that's feats from armour, 2 fighter feats, scribe scroll, 2 monk feats, IUS from monk, 2 feat rogue feats, 2 psywar feats, 1 metamagic feat (WuJen), Wild talent and wf (mindblade) from soulknife, 3 feats from domains or devotion feats from Cloistered Cleric, a bonus feat for Psion, proficiency with all shields including tower and exotic shields from crusader, weapon finesse with swashbuckler.

Plus the VoP and normal and legacy feats.

The five master thrower levels double all your feats by shuffling them all for weapon focus with thrown weapons and then getting Improved critical for all of them, which you can then shuffle away again.

So that's... Yeah I don't know how many feats. But quite a lot, especially if you armour shuffle after every class you take that grants armour proficiency.

And on top of that you get wizard, cleric, wu-jen and psion spell completion item access, and 4 attacks per round, and some spells and power points, and a mindblade, a familiar (or abrupt jaunt if you prefer) and a psicrystal, and maneuvers, and evasion (twice) and trapfinding and wis to AC and a few other things, and decent HP. You get more class features than a core fighter!

I suppose you could look through the every feat commoner thread for ideas.

[Spuddles]

Originally Posted by Morbis Meh

Bet them all on black!

Always bet on black.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by toapat

1: Feat rogue can get +4 feats on fighter
2: Embrace the dark chaos doesnt work in that way, as it requires the granted feat to be legally allowed where it is going. Fighter/Feat Rogue bonus feats thus cant be used
3: Items confer the benefits of feats, not the feats themselves.

The bolded statement isn't going to fly with anyone until you can substantiate it. Until you show some kind of proof that feat-slots are a thing, they're not; and your argument fails for being based on something you made up. I'll happily agree that it's a reasonable houserule. I'll even tentatively agree that it may have been what was intended. It, however, is not in any way, shape, form, or fashion part of the actual RAW.

#3 depends on the phrasing for the item. Some items say that they give you the effect of the feat, others say you have the feat as long as the item is worn or wielded. Read the item's description carefully.

[toapat]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

The bolded statement isn't going to fly with anyone until you can substantiate it. Until you show some kind of proof that feat-slots are a thing, they're not; and your argument fails for being based on something you made up. I'll happily agree that it's a reasonable houserule. I'll even tentatively agree that it may have been what was intended. It, however, is not in any way, shape, form, or fashion part of the actual RAW.

1: Feats, once chosen and <Fluff for getting the feat>, do not Lose the restriction of what they can be. confirmed PHB2, Page 192-193
2: All prerequisites of the Abyssal Heritor feat, including providing a feat in exchange/to be replaced which does not have restrictions (such as those defined by Bonus Feats, Fighter, PHB pg 38) that exclude the choice of an abyssal Heritor feat at that level. Embrace the Dark Chaos, Fiendish Codex 1, pg 92, seemingly redundant line

Legacy Ritual: I thought you had to take, not recieve, the legacy attunement feats, i read it as feats granted through weapons, which can go both ways, but normally is granted the benefits of, not have

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Originally Posted by toapat

1: Feats, once chosen and <Fluff for getting the feat>, do not Lose the restriction of what they can be. confirmed PHB2, Page 192-193
2: All prerequisites of the Abyssal Heritor feat, including providing a feat in exchange/to be replaced which does not have restrictions (such as those defined by Bonus Feats, Fighter, PHB pg 38) that exclude the choice of an abyssal Heritor feat at that level. Embrace the Dark Chaos, Fiendish Codex 1, pg 92, seemingly redundant line

Legacy Ritual: I thought you had to take, not recieve, the legacy attunement feats, i read it as feats granted through weapons, which can go both ways, but normally is granted the benefits of, not have

1: I just read through that whole section, and I have no idea what you're talking about. Even the part specific to retraining feats doesn't even mention anything of the sort. Assuming the section you're referencing did state or even imply what you claim it does, that would be a general rule regarding choices made when retraining, and it would only apply to retraining. Even if it could be applied outside of retraining, the specific wording of Embrace the Dark Chaos would override it per primary source.
2: Still invalid given 1 is still just something you made up.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by toapat

1: Feats, once chosen and <Fluff for getting the feat>, do not Lose the restriction of what they can be. confirmed PHB2, Page 192-193
2: All prerequisites of the Abyssal Heritor feat, including providing a feat in exchange/to be replaced which does not have restrictions (such as those defined by Bonus Feats, Fighter, PHB pg 38) that exclude the choice of an abyssal Heritor feat at that level. Embrace the Dark Chaos, Fiendish Codex 1, pg 92, seemingly redundant line

Legacy Ritual: I thought you had to take, not recieve, the legacy attunement feats, i read it as feats granted through weapons, which can go both ways, but normally is granted the benefits of, not have

PHB2 and FC1 have no inherent relationship and casting the dark chaos spells isn't retraining. You're applying an unrelated rule to the spell.

Also, the line you're "quoting" there, doesn't actually appear anywhere on page 192 or 193 of PHB2. There is such a restriction on retraining feats, but there's nothing in the language in that section that suggests this is a reference to a default rule and not just part of the retraining system.

Your dead-wrong about the legacy feats. They're granted as bonus feats upon completing a legacy ritual and -never- have to be selected as a feat on character advancement. To use your own made-up idea, they effectively create a "feat-slot" for themselves when you complete the ritual and pay the fee.

[nedz]

Originally Posted by Spuddles

Always bet on black.

No, no, no always bet on red. Unless you can quote a source.

[toapat]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

PHB2 and FC1 have no inherent relationship and casting the dark chaos spells isn't retraining. You're applying an unrelated rule to the spell.

Also, the line you're "quoting" there, doesn't actually appear anywhere on page 192 or 193 of PHB2. There is such a restriction on retraining feats, but there's nothing in the language in that section that suggests this is a reference to a default rule and not just part of the retraining system.

Your dead-wrong about the legacy feats. They're granted as bonus feats upon completing a legacy ritual and -never- have to be selected as a feat on character advancement. To use your own made-up idea, they effectively create a "feat-slot" for themselves when you complete the ritual and pay the fee.

1: The line im quoting is alot simpler then im making it, as i said, it is the Seemingly redundant line in Embrace

If the subject does not qualify for the feat, the spell fails

. The sentence right before that already said you select an abyssal heritor feat the target qualifies for. Missing this connection is a bit easy, but why would the prerequisite conditions change, if the target already qualifies for the feat? Because there is a new condition, which is providing a feat to be swapped. PHB2 retraining rules arent relevant to the order of how embrace works. what is relevant is the minor fact that they explain that Bonus Feat class abilities are always restricting the options for the feat choices they grant, or at the very least reactivated whenever a feat is interacting with (by replacing) the original feat

2: I said i was mistaken about the legacy feats, because i thought the feats being thrown out were weapon granted, not granted by ritual, feats.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Originally Posted by toapat

1: The line im quoting is alot simpler then im making it, as i said, it is the Seemingly redundant line in Embrace . The sentence right before that already said you select an abyssal heritor feat the target qualifies for. Missing this connection is a bit easy, but why would the prerequisite conditions change, if the target already qualifies for the feat? Because there is a new condition, which is providing a feat to be swapped. PHB2 retraining rules arent relevant to the order of how embrace works. what is relevant is the minor fact that they explain that Bonus Feat class abilities are always restricting the options for the feat choices they grant, or at the very least reactivated whenever a feat is interacting with (by replacing) the original feat

That's not even close to what it says:

"The subject immediately gains one
Abyssal heritor feat for which it
qualifies, chosen by you at the time
of casting. If the subject does not
qualify for the designated feat, the
spell fails."

You don't have to pick a feat it qualifies for, but it will only gain one for which it qualifies.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by PHB2, pg 193 on feat retraining

You can exchange one of the feats you previously selected for another feat. If the new feat has prerequisites, not only must your character meet them in his current state, but you must also be able to show that he met them at the time you chose the previous feat.

That's the passage in question. It's the only passage anywhere in any WotC official book that ever makes mention of how replacing one feat with another works, outside of psychic reformation and the dark chaos spells. It does so completely within the context of the retraining system being presented in that book.

I defy you, toapat, to find anything in that passage that's even mildly suggestive of the idea that this is a reiteration of a default rule.

In fact, I invite anyone at all to interpret the quoted text as referring to a default rule of any sort, by use of logical reasoning.

Feat retraining is not relevant to the DCFS, or anything else to do with feats except when actually using the retraining rules.

Barring something, anything, that's actually a piece of rules text or logical reasoning based there-on, I'm done with this discussion. The evidence I've put foward speaks for itself.

There is no link between the feat retraining rules and any other piece of rules text.

There are no "feat slots" or anything similar.

The DCFS can swap any feat you have, by RAW, even though it's a horribly cheesy and unbalancing trick. Only the most high-op and cheesy games will allow it to function by RAW, otherwise it will almost certainly be banned or nerfed by a reasonable DM.

That's all there really is to say on this matter.

Edit: It occurs to me that toapat may be taking rules that are even further out of context to the issue at hand by referencing the class feature retraining rules. By those rules you can replace bonus feats with other bonus feats you would've qualified for, but those rules are even further removed from how feats work at the basic level, and have even less to do with the DCFS than the passage I quoted.

[toapat]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

*Angry rant that misses the point*

Feat Retraining is not being called up as the rules that define how to trade out feats.

It is being called out as a specific source that RAW, states clearly that the restrictions a feat might have been procured under never cease to exist, and by extension, the argument that DCFSing feats which were chosen under restricted conditions does not work.

The counter argument since has been "Oh, but it is a spell, and so RAW doesnt matter at all". By that logic, you dont need to trade out feats you have, you can just say, i throw out the feat gained at 2nd level through hitdice to receive my abyssal heritor feat.

[olentu]

Originally Posted by toapat

Feat Retraining is not being called up as the rules that define how to trade out feats.

It is being called out as a specific source that RAW, states clearly that the restrictions a feat might have been procured under never cease to exist, and by extension, the argument that DCFSing feats which were chosen under restricted conditions does not work.

The counter argument since has been "Oh, but it is a spell, and so RAW doesnt matter at all". By that logic, you dont need to trade out feats you have, you can just say, i throw out the feat gained at 2nd level through hitdice to receive my abyssal heritor feat.

So if feat retraining is not being used as rules that define how to trade out feats, then how can it be defining rules that define restrictions on how to trade out feats?

Well that, and the fact that you are using the common English version of perquisite instead of the the perquisites listed in the feat entries.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by toapat

Feat Retraining is not being called up as the rules that define how to trade out feats.

It is being called out as a specific source that RAW, states clearly that the restrictions a feat might have been procured under never cease to exist, and by extension, the argument that DCFSing feats which were chosen under restricted conditions does not work.

The counter argument since has been "Oh, but it is a spell, and so RAW doesnt matter at all". By that logic, you dont need to trade out feats you have, you can just say, i throw out the feat gained at 2nd level through hitdice to receive my abyssal heritor feat.

Except it doesn't. It's RAW that says when you retrain feats you have to have qualified for the feat you're taking as a replacement at the time you took the feat being replaced.

You're saying that specific rule is a general rule, when it's not. The only general rule regarding feats is that you get one at 1st and every 3rd level. That's it.

The argument's not "it's a spell so the RAW doesn't matter" it's "It's a spell, so that completely unrelated bit of RAW for an optional subsystem doesn't apply." Specific trumps general. You're arguing one specific trumps another specific.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Originally Posted by toapat

Feat Retraining is not being called up as the rules that define how to trade out feats.

It is being called out as a specific source that RAW, states clearly that the restrictions a feat might have been procured under never cease to exist, and by extension, the argument that DCFSing feats which were chosen under restricted conditions does not work.

The counter argument since has been "Oh, but it is a spell, and so RAW doesnt matter at all". By that logic, you dont need to trade out feats you have, you can just say, i throw out the feat gained at 2nd level through hitdice to receive my abyssal heritor feat.

Let's take the RAW:
You can exchange one of the feats you previously selected for another feat. If the new feat has prerequisites, not only must your character meet them in his current state, but you must also be able to show that he met them at the time you chose the previous feat.

And let's use an example character retraining a feat and following the above rule to the letter:

Mr. Fighter took Weapon Focus at his Fighter 1 bonus feat, a Fighter bonus feat slot. He wants to replace it with Skill Focus: Basket Weaving. Per the above RAW, he meets the prerequisites for Skill Focus: Basket Weaving in his current state, and he can show that he met the prerequisites for Skill Focus: Basket Weaving at 1st level when he chose Weapon Focus. It passes the RAW and it's permissible.

Everything you've been saying is absolutely invalid, you're making up rules. A character qualifying for a feat and a feat slot qualifying for a feat are two different things. If there were such a general rule on feat selection, Specific Trumps General per the Primary Source rules, so the specific effect of Embrace the Dark Chaos replacing any feat with any abyssal heritor feat would be an exception to that general rule. Even if feat-slot-qualification exists, Embrace the Dark Chaos specifies that the only limit in place is character-qualification, not feat-slot-qualification. Stop making up silly rules.

[toapat]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

Except it doesn't. It's RAW that says when you retrain feats you have to have qualified for the feat you're taking as a replacement at the time you took the feat being replaced.

You're saying that specific rule is a general rule, when it's not. The only general rule regarding feats is that you get one at 1st and every 3rd level. That's it.

The argument's not "it's a spell so the RAW doesn't matter" it's "It's a spell, so that completely unrelated bit of RAW for an optional subsystem doesn't apply." Specific trumps general. You're arguing one specific trumps another specific.

And now you are handwaiving the argument by saying that "it is a specific rule, not general". The specific is not the part im even using, as the specific has no relevance to the spell because one is defining the rules for the feat swap.

Thing is, that section itself also clarifies something that is not remotely clear at all in the core rules: That a Fighter: Bonus Feat is a class ability, and that the Feat granted only occupies the Fighter bonus feat. The restrictions that are imposed on aquiring the feat are always there, and so, while not actively called into service, will dropkick the heritor feat

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Originally Posted by toapat

And now you are handwaiving the argument by saying that "it is a specific rule, not general". The specific is not the part im even using, as the specific has no relevance to the feat because one is defining the rules for the feat swap.

Thing is, that section itself also clarifies something that is not remotely clear at all in the core rules: That a Fighter: Bonus Feat is a class ability, and that the Feat granted only occupies the Fighter bonus feat. The restrictions that are imposed on aquiring the feat are always there, and so, while not actively called into service, will dropkick the heritor feat

I've already shown that this interpretation doesn't hold water even within the context of the retraining rules. You can retrain a Fighter bonus feat into one that's not available as a Fighter bonus feat, and as long as you met the prerequisites for the new feat at the level you gained the feat that's being replaced, it passes the RAW test.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by toapat

And now you are handwaiving the argument by saying that "it is a specific rule, not general". The specific is not the part im even using, as the specific has no relevance to the spell because one is defining the rules for the feat swap.

Thing is, that section itself also clarifies something that is not remotely clear at all in the core rules: That a Fighter: Bonus Feat is a class ability, and that the Feat granted only occupies the Fighter bonus feat. The restrictions that are imposed on aquiring the feat are always there, and so, while not actively called into service, will dropkick the heritor feat

Those rules clarify nothing. They add rules that didn't previously exist. This is even said by the introduction to that chapter. Before those rules were introduced, your feat choices were set in stone unless you were subject to a psychic reformation effect.

There are still no general rules for replacing feats, because it's only possible by employing either the retraining rules or using a spell or power to accomplish the desired effect.

You're taking a specific rule and saying that it's creates an implication, and that in turn that implication is RAW.

Implications that may or may not be inherent to a piece of RAW aren't RAW in and of themselves; if for no other reason then because implication isn't written anywhere.

It can't be part of the rules as written when it's not actually written.