Dark Chaos Shuffle

[toapat]

Originally Posted by TypoNinja

Yea I just noticed that right now when glancing back, apparently I just can't read, no idea how I missed it. So ignore that bit, I stand by the rest. :P

Open feat choices are typically required by the rules to be made before the completion of level up. Floating feats like Chameleon gets are rare. the point was to point out that you have to create an open feat choice (feat slot) to slot the abyssal heritor. You gain an Open feat choice at points as specified in rules im not going to quote because it is a long section.

actually, the problem im refferencing is how the example for feat retraining is completely stupid and non-informitive, not explaining in alternate form how the thing works other then ok, you cant take a feat that requires +8 BAB when you have +3 BAB. ya, that is blatantly obvious, show us something that better explains other instances of the rules.

and Embrace doesnt specify that it prevents instances of the rules like Fighter: bonus feats from breaking the combo. While the explosion of the rules is undefined, you absolutely cant keep the abyssal heritor feat long enough to get it shunned out.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by TypoNinja

No, the normal progression is that upon gaining a feat from leveling up you select it right away, you are not allowed to put off the choice either, there are no feat slots. You chose the feat when leveling up, and the level up process dictates at what point you gain it.



The examples for feat swapping in the PHB2 retraining rules are very clear. When retraining you must show that you would have qualified for the feat you are choosing at the same time you took the initial feat you are swapping out. That is to say the new feat must have also been a legal choice at the time of gaining the feat you are swapping out.

The obvious extension to that for bonus feats (like a fighter) is that one fighter bonus feat has to be swapped for another, because at the time of selection only fighter bonus feats were legal choices.

The Chaos Shuffle spells on the other hand have no such clauses restricting its application, indeed it even says. "replaced by any other feat for which the subject qualifies".

As a DM, you might look at the retraining rules in attempting to limit cheeze potential of the chaos shuffle, however RAW there is no such restriction.

A wiser course would be to note that the Shun the Dark Chaos spell doesn't say that either the caster or the casted upon gets to choose the new feat, unlike Embrace The Dark Chaos.

Citation needed on the bold. It's certainly a logical conclusion, but it's not in the RAW.

All the book says is that you must've met the prerequisites for the new feat at the time you took the feat you're replacing.

There's nothing in the text to clarify that you must take a feat you could've legally taken under the same restrictions as the feat you're replacing. Neither is there anything that says you must replace a bonus feat recieved as a class-feature by retraining the class-feature.

By strict RAW you could replace a fighter bonus feat with an abyssal heritor feat, even without the spell; or a metamagic, or skill focus, or what-have-you.

It's a truly egregious oversight, but it's an oversight that was made, nonetheless.

Naturally, I would never allow this to fly in an actual game but RAW is RAW, anything else is a houserule no matter how sensible.

Originally Posted by toapat

nope, specifically specifies the subject chooses the lost abyssal heritor feat and the replacement for the feat. I havent been arguing against the function of the entire shun spell because the spell is worded without actual holes or problems that people ignore about Embrace to make the thing work.

Why shouldn't we ignore a thing that doesn't exist?

Your argument actually got weaker as this discussion went on, since the rules you highlighted don't even do what you say within themselves when they do apply, so I really don't understand why you haven't conceded the point.

[TypoNinja]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

Citation needed on the bold. It's certainly a logical conclusion, but it's not in the RAW.

The opening words of the Retraining section itself, prefacing all retraining, not just feats specifically.

PHB2 pg 192.

The most basic level of character revision is retraining - that is, adjusting a decision you made earlier in your character's career by selecting a different legal option.

Bold mine.

Naturally this is the rules for retraining, the Chaos shuffle suffered no such restrictions.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by TypoNinja

The opening words of the Retraining section itself, prefacing all retraining, not just feats specifically.

PHB2 pg 192.


Bold mine.

Naturally this is the rules for retraining, the Chaos shuffle suffered no such restrictions.

Huh. Missed that.

I stand corrected on the inconsistency in the retraining rules themselves, but this still doesn't mean they have anything to do with normal advancement or the DCFS.

[TypoNinja]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

Huh. Missed that.

I stand corrected on the inconsistency in the retraining rules themselves, but this still doesn't mean they have anything to do with normal advancement or the DCFS.

Well no, but I would say they are a decent place to start if a DM needs to houserule The Shuffle to limit the pure cheese.

[mattie_p]

Just a quick note here, I've been reading about feat slots and such. Quick analogy for now.

If a feat, bonus or other, is like a cloak of charisma +2 (shoulders slot), using embrace/shun is like getting a pink and green ioun stone (cha +2) (now slotless). As long as the the PC qualifies for the feat (has enough wealth to buy it).