Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

[Olfgar]

Which Lich do you guys think is the scarier one out of the above 4 classes?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Olfgar

Which Lich do you guys think is the scarier one out of the above 4 classes?

From a metagame perspective, the wizard, by a significant margin. All four classes are at least equally weakened by the lich template (though druid might get it worse than the other three) but the wizard has the most potential ways to make you sorry he ever heard of you.

From an in-game perspective, it's a toss-up between the wizard and the cleric. The wizard's a planner and a schemer and if he didn't ban illusion he's got all kinds of tricks to make himself that much scarier.

The cleric likely has the backing of a dark god and/or its church. There's almost nothing in this or any other world as scary as religion. A fact that becomes all the more true when the gods are active and their worshippers can wield magical powers.

[Olfgar]

I forgot. The Cleric is also able to heal himself with the same spells that would kill you.

[Cranthis]

Wellllll You could always go cleric and wizard. Mystich theurge it up and become a lich.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Olfgar

I forgot. The Cleric is also able to heal himself with the same spells that would kill you.

I'm guessing you're thinking mass harm there?

That's a pretty sweet move, but it's pretty high level. Come to think of it, it may even be out of reach for a non-epic cleric lich. That +4 LA hurts.

It also pales in comparison to any of the wizard's options if he's built to be a mailman style blast-spammer.

[dungeonnerd]

Personally, I kinda want to call druid - if for no other reason than noone expects a lich to be able to call animal friends, animate trees, wild-shape, etc.

Hell, a druid5/MoMF10/Beastmaster5 that picked up the Lich template somehow has what, 4 pets, can wild shape into a gargantuan dragon, has all EX abilities of any form it takes (can also go as small as tiny for escapes, can do oozes, elementals, etc) while still being undead.

If you can't, a druid20 still has some amazing natural world spells that would shock the hell out of anyone expecting a standard lich fight...

[dungeonnerd]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

I'm guessing you're thinking mass harm there?

That's a pretty sweet move, but it's pretty high level. Come to think of it, it may even be out of reach for a non-epic cleric lich. That +4 LA hurts.

It also pales in comparison to any of the wizard's options if he's built to be a mailman style blast-spammer.

With buyoff from UA, it's down to a +3 LA (can't get lower, sadly) which brings you to 17cleric and your first 9th spell.

Also, Mass Harm is ninth level, so without that buyoff you can't get it.

[Olfgar]

I also ment any harm/inflict spells in general but yes that would be pretty sweet.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Olfgar

I also ment any harm/inflict spells in general but yes that would be pretty sweet.

The basic inflict spells are kinda sub-par. Xd8 + CL is pretty low at any level except the one you get the spell on. Even then most sources of damage tends to out-pace them in even the upper-end of low-op.

I say this as someone who plays pretty close to the level of power the designers balanced around. (hint: that's a much lower level of power than most of the people around here discuss.)

[Psyren]

Clerics are always scariest to me, simply because being a cleric implies that he has backup. Any deity whose dogma is okay with lichdom to begin with is either a bastard or pretty liberal - either way means he'll likely grant the kind of miracles that would screw over the lich's opponents.

[Saintheart]

Originally Posted by dungeonnerd

Personally, I kinda want to call druid - if for no other reason than noone expects a lich to be able to call animal friends, animate trees, wild-shape, etc.

Hell, a druid5/MoMF10/Beastmaster5 that picked up the Lich template somehow has what, 4 pets, can wild shape into a gargantuan dragon, has all EX abilities of any form it takes (can also go as small as tiny for escapes, can do oozes, elementals, etc) while still being undead.

If you can't, a druid20 still has some amazing natural world spells that would shock the hell out of anyone expecting a standard lich fight...

Small fluff problem: druids of all stripes despise undead as being against the natural order, so a lich druid could well get PHBs/DMGs thrown at him.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Hm. Just playing Azatoth's Advocate here...What about Sorcerer Lich? Wouldn't high Charisma benefit a Lich who uses it in place of Constitution for HP?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Ninjadeadbeard

Hm. Just playing Azatoth's Advocate here...What about Sorcerer Lich? Wouldn't high Charisma benefit a Lich who uses it in place of Constitution for HP?

There aren't many ways to get cha to HP's even if you're undead. There's also no reason to think that the wizard wouldn't do the same and pump his cha to similar levels. Not the same of course, but similar.

[Narsil]

I'd personally like to point out that the lich wouldn't really be suffering all that much from level adjustment, since it only really applies to player characters and any given villain or big-bad-evil-guy is exactly as high level as he needs to be to screw you over.

The scariest liches, naturally, are the ones who are 18th-level magic-users and found in the 1977 Monster Manual.

[Diovid]

Originally Posted by Saintheart

Small fluff problem: druids of all stripes despise undead as being against the natural order, so a lich druid could well get PHBs/DMGs thrown at him.

Not quite. There's the feat Corrupted Wild Shape from Libris Mortis and there's also the feat Tainted Druid. I see a badass Druid Lich in the making.

[lord_khaine]

There aren't many ways to get cha to HP's even if you're undead. There's also no reason to think that the wizard wouldn't do the same and pump his cha to similar levels. Not the same of course, but similar.

Is it even doable? the only template i have seen do it is dry lich, but thats no longer a possibility when you have become a regular lich.

[Narsil]

Pathfinder undead rules give you charisma to hit points automatically, as a replacement for constitution. You also don't have any changes to your non-racial hit dice.

[Flasaro]

A druidlv --/ Blighter could be scary, at least from what i can remember about them.

[Saintheart]

Originally Posted by Flasaro

A druidlv --/ Blighter could be scary, at least from what i can remember about them.

No. No they are not. This is a big bone of contention in Red Hand of Doom (do not open the following spoilertag if you plan to play RHOD anytime soon)...

Spoiler

The most "powerful" opponent the PCs potentially face is a druid 6/blighter 5 or so with the lich template. He's marketed and meant to function as a curbstomper against a level 8-9 party; you're meant to be so freaked out and scared of him that you negotiate the return of his phylactery to him rather than fight him.

However, the almost-universal experience of parties running that module is that the "book" build sucks. Horribly. And much of it seems to come from the fact he's a blighter.

The main reason is due to inherent issues with the blighter. First issue, all your druid casting is now gone. What do you get in return? Blighters basically get a little blasty elemental magic one level down - you can now get Flame Strike one level early, and you also get a direct-damage burst centred on you (blightfire). Unfortunately, the blighter's spell list is waaaaaaay too limited. Where it sticks out most glaringly is in relation to summoning: no Summon Nature's Ally on the list, since you're all against nature now, so no Greenbound Summoning or Ashbound summoning. And blighters don't get Summon Undead to compensate for it. Matter of fact, for an evil or undead-themed PrC, the blighter doesn't even get Control Undead until he can cast level 6 spells.

He also loses his most potent wild shape strengths (all Wild Shapes are now undead, which means vulnerable to positive energy blasty magic like the Light of Venya line of spells). And he has no animal companion either, so no buddy to do your melee'ing for you.

Standing on his own, or even with a few undead allies, the opponent in question -- the Ghostlord -- tends to get rolled by every party who decides to throw down on him, whether it's because of the action economy or otherwise. Fuller discussion on this subject, including some rebuilds, is in the RHOD Handbook in my sig.

[Saintheart]

Originally Posted by Diovid

Not quite. There's the feat Corrupted Wild Shape from Libris Mortis and there's also the feat Tainted Druid. I see a badass Druid Lich in the making.

Oho! I don't know about Corrupted Wild Shape, but that Tainted Druid feat could be interesting, particularly for RHOD. I shall have to give that more thought...

For my own (or at least Glyphstone's contribution, coming from the RHOD Handbook): try lich-ifying Druid 5/Ur-Priest X. Seventh level spells by level 12 ought to impress someone ;)

[Flasaro]

I was guessing to be completely honest. Looking at the books I now see the err of my ways :)

[Tvtyrant]

Blighter can be decent, but only if you level drain the Druid levels before taking Blighter levels. Then you get 9th level spells extremely early in the game, which you probably follow with Master of Many Forms to get some of your flexibility back (or some sort of theurge.)

[TopCheese]

Originally Posted by Saintheart

Small fluff problem: druids of all stripes despise undead as being against the natural order, so a lich druid could well get PHBs/DMGs thrown at him.

I forget what book... But there is a BBEG that is a Druid Lich based around the cold and such.

Pretty scary actually.

Actually of the 4, I see evil druids going lich faster than the other. Why? So they can be as timeless as the nature they love. So they gain the power to kill off all those that harm mother nature. But most important... So they are no longer one of those fleshy creatures that use and abuse nature.

From a fluff perspective I could see good druids going lich since that would be the best way to protect mother nature and not be part of the problem. Heck you never have to kill to eat or take from mother nature again and you can watch over the world and let nature live in peace.

[Olfgar]

Originally Posted by TopCheese

I forget what book... But there is a BBEG that is a Druid Lich based around the cold and such.

Pretty scary actually.

Actually of the 4, I see evil druids going lich faster than the other. Why? So they can be as timeless as the nature they love. So they gain the power to kill off all those that harm mother nature. But most important... So they are no longer one of those fleshy creatures that use and abuse nature.

From a fluff perspective I could see good druids going lich since that would be the best way to protect mother nature and not be part of the problem. Heck you never have to kill to eat or take from mother nature again and you can watch over the world and let nature live in peace.

Well the whole "eating meat and other crap found growing from nature" bit is kind of off. Its usually scene as it being a part of the cycle of life. Certain things exists in the cycle to be eaten by something else, which in turn will be eaten by something else.

For example, berries and grass and leaves and what not are going to be eaten by a deer, which will be eaten by a carnivore, such as wolves, bears, humanoid races etc, which are all apart of nature because they, you know exist.

while generally humanoids are at the top of their respective food chains (generally, because there isnt alot that actively hunts them for a food source unless you know...plot hook?) and other carnivores like wolves or bears are at the top of theirs, because its the grass eaters that get hunted first etc, its still part of nature and the circle of life and what not, because it allows that species to survive, while keeping the other species in check.

Also I can see where your going for the druid becoming a lich to better protect the forest, but...Undeath is like a slap to the face of nature, and then spiting in its eye. Hell, becoming a Lich is just a naturally evil act, not matter what your intentions are with it.

[Psyren]

Originally Posted by TopCheese

Actually of the 4, I see evil druids going lich faster than the other. Why? So they can be as timeless as the nature they love. So they gain the power to kill off all those that harm mother nature. But most important... So they are no longer one of those fleshy creatures that use and abuse nature.

Death - natural death, and change - are parts of nature. While nature as a concept is timeless, it only persists as a whole because the old growth eventually dies to make room for (and nourish) the new. Forests may live eternally, but trees die all the time.

I can't see undeath playing any part in that. It's a perversion, nothing more. Certainly a druid can go this route mechanically, but I can't imagine his fellows being welcoming of the idea. He might even "cease to revere nature" immediately, if not over the fullness of time.

[LTwerewolf]

An archivist would make a nightmarish lich.

[doko239]

Not 3.5, but a Pathfinder-style Synthesist Summoner could be fun, though not totally game-breaking, as a Lich.

No con score? That's ok, you give yourself one anyway, plus vastly improved physical stats, a metric assload of temp HP, and other fun little plusses.

Or be a Bard Lich and tell people you're Keith Richards

[dungeonnerd]

Originally Posted by doko239

Or be a Bard Lich and tell people you're Keith Richards

Yeah, im playing that in my next game.

[Acanous]

Pretty sure Clerics make the best liches for the same reason Clerics make the best Necromancers- You have two domains and Rebuke Undead which can add bonuses to your powers over undeath. You can Bolster yourself. You can heal (Harm) yourself.
The wizard is no slouch either, and he'd have better damage-dealing ability, but the Cleric's going to have the edge here. Especially if we're only going Core.

[NeedsAnswersNao]

Non-epic? Fewest shenanigans? If demilich counts as a "lich" then sorc. PBMC had a preepic build of one I copied down a while ago.