D&D 3e/3.5e/d20The forum for conversations specifically related to the rules and procedures of Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition, 3.5 Edition, or any fantasy game using the d20 system or a variant thereof (commercially published or not).
Hey there fellow players.
As the thread title says, I'm looking for a way to sneak attack without flanking.
The situation: In my current 3.5 group, we tend to split up for the purpose of achieving quest goals rather frequently, which means that I'm out on solo trips at night quite often. Is there any way to give my rogue the ability to sneak attack to full extent (means, with all attacks of a round) without someone to flank for me? I guess in this case I'd rather have to focus on denying my victims their dex to ac.
What I'm not looking for is any kind of animal companion or familiar that gets the job done for me. Solo trip means stealth trip.
I thought about improved feint + surprising riposte, but tends to consume three feats. Which is a lot.
I'm a catfolk rogue, which means I can pounce. Is it possible to "reopen" encounters, in the way of hiding (camouflage+HiPS) after I did beat one enemy, pouncing at the next one then, to get something like a "second ambush"? (fur the purpose of full round flat-footing the next attacked enemy again)
Which other options could I mind? Invisibility? Stun/Blind effects?
Help is appreciated! And as said, I want to sneak attack to full extent even without an opportunity to flank.
If they need to roll a balance check and don't have 5 ranks in balance they are treated as flat footed even if they succeed on the check. A bag of marbles rolled under your enemies or a wand of grease should do the trick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by d20srd.org
Being Attacked while Balancing
You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing. If you take damage while balancing, you must make another Balance check against the same DC to remain standing.
__________________
"Elephant trunks should be used for elephant things only. Nothing else."
One way that's highly reliable, but feat-and-level-intensive, is to take Combat Expertise and Improved Feint, then take 6 levels of Beguiler (PHB2). At 6th level, Beguilers gain the ability to feint in combat as a move action, or as a swift action if they already have the Improved Feint feat.
__________________
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
My players met in a mountain pass on their way to a celebratory feast, that was then ambushed by a draconic army. Good times.
Awesome Talon avatar by Ceika.
Last edited by Rhaegar14 : 11-15-2012 at 08:46 AM.
In order to Vanish, you'll need either cover or concealment (no CD, though, gotta love that). If you have either of those, you can Hide again as part of a move action. This doesn't allow you to pounce with sneak attack, though (as you come charging they see you, and they're not flatfooted since they've moved in this battle already). You'd have to manage to stealth right up next to them to get another melee sneak attack.
For a fresh pounce vs. flat feet you have to end combat, which is basically up to the DM. You may have to simply run off and return later. The rules on hiding may well help here.
Invisibility is your friend, of course, as it would allow you a fresh pouncing sneak attack - you don't become visible until you attack. Wand of Invisibility with good enough Use Magic Device could do it. Standard action to become invisible, move action to move into position for the charge, and hope the enemy doesn't move into a position where they notice you or can't be charged.
Personally, I wouldn't rely too heavily on any one method (especially something so simple as marbles). Try to have more tricks than one if you can manage it. Your DM is less likely to get bored with it (or outright annoyed if you do it on, say, Darth Vader), and some creatures can see invisible enemies or have 5 or more ranks in Balance.
Invisible Blade (CWar), if you ignore the monumentally stupid errata, will also let you feint faster than a move action. You'll actually be able to feint as a free action, letting you full-sneak-attack.
Just show your DM the book and conveniently "forget" that Wizards ruined the class online.
Or you could... flank. Bring a flanking buddy with you (bag of tricks, amulet of vermin, or similar), and SA away!
You could also become an assassin and do the Death Attack.
If you need a flanking buddy that follows you around everywhere, Wild Cohort is a great pick.
__________________
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
My players met in a mountain pass on their way to a celebratory feast, that was then ambushed by a draconic army. Good times.
One way that's highly reliable, but feat-and-level-intensive, is to take Combat Expertise and Improved Feint, then take 6 levels of Beguiler (PHB2). At 6th level, Beguilers gain the ability to feint in combat as a move action, or as a swift action if they already have the Improved Feint feat.
Swift is 1/round maximum, and feinting only makes them FF vs your next attack, so she won't get a full attack with sneak attack this way. Combined with Surprising Riposte it's good, though - swift action feint, attack does damage, flat footed for 1 round, finish your full attack. Also works with Invisible Blade even with the errata.
Thread has already hit all the main points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwendol
Or you could... flank. Bring a flanking buddy with you (bag of tricks, amulet of vermin, or similar), and SA away!
Think you missed the point!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin
I'm looking for a way to sneak attack without flanking.
Marble Bag from the A&EG are extremely cheap (5 SP or something like that) are a mundane and reusable grease. Buy a few of them and if possible get a Collar of perpetual attendance
Spoiler
Collar of Perpetual Attendance: At will, the wearer of this collar can call an unseen servant, as the spell, to attend and clean up after him or another creature he designates. The unseen servant performs such mundane tasks as cleaning up hairballs and policing the wearer's litter box. It also grooms the wearer on command, removing burrs, smoothing tangles, and ensuring that the wearer's fur remains soft and well-tended.
Ring of Blinking + Pierce Magical Concealment = sneak attack, all the time, forever and ever.
Expensive, though... 27000 GP, and requires three feats (Blind-Fight, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment).
Much cheaper: dust eggshell grenades (10 GP, Oriental Adventures). Ranged touch attack, target is blind (no save!) for 1d4 rounds (which allows you to attack as if invisible). Be careful about over-using this one, though, or your DM will likely ban it.
I'm also fairly certain that if you are hidden you can charge and sneak attack at the same time. Not every charge has to a maniacal murderer screaming "I'M THE JUGGERNAUT, BITCH!" It can be as silent and deadly as an arrow without the twang of the bow. Mechanics wise it would also kinda make sense. (your making an attack action from hiding). My personal opinion on the matter. Not to ruin or step on anyone's toes either.
other good methods are:
- invisibility
- blind
- balance
- grapple? (find a way to grapple them without being grappeled yourself, should work)
@ Dissonance: Well, yes, you can Hide while charging - at a -20 penalty to the check, making it fairly impractical for most situations. If you have cover (and thus are allowed to Hide), you may be unable to charge, as you must charge in a straight line. And if you have concealment due to bushes, say, you can't charge, because you can't charge in difficult terrain. And if your concealment is good enough, you can't charge because you must have line of sight to charge. Finally, if your target stands in the open, you can't hide all the way there. You only get to Hide when you have cover or concealment (or the enemy's distracted, of course, but that's all it's own set of problems, as people have described in this thread).
So you're right, it's technically possible to charge and hide at the same time. In practice, it's rarely very useful, though.
Get a tree token and activate it when you need to hide, because trees grant you concealment? Or find one of the many, many variations of a "low wall." You need to be closer than the opponent to the wall to be concealed, but really all you need is to make a box of earth around yourself using wall of x scrolls and then jump out the top.
__________________
Avapony by Dirtytabs!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
Finding out that the ennui and cynicism of our times is not, after all, an unavoidable unreverseable fate does kind of throw your world-view off, potentially.
Does this even work? Blink does not create a concealment effect, you become ethereal. You're missing 20% of the time because you're not on this plane.
Greater Blinking would work, just need scrolls/staffs/custom item of it. A Schema of Greater Blinking would be pretty cool, as it would work everyday and be rather cheap.
__________________
Avapony by Dirtytabs!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
Finding out that the ennui and cynicism of our times is not, after all, an unavoidable unreverseable fate does kind of throw your world-view off, potentially.
Pierce Magical Concealment allows you to ignore miss chances created via spells or magic items.
Seems like it. I had always assumed it was concealment effects only, since all the examples I was familiar with (obscuring mist, darkness, invisibility) were concealment-based. I just looked up ghostform, though, and that's miss chance due to incorporeality, not concealment. So Blink works!
Yay! No one has mentioned the Feral Dreadlord's way! I can be relevant!
Specifically, Clarion Commander's Perpetual Flank ability, from the Tome of Battle. DC 20 Intimidate Check as a Standard Action. Succeed, and then attack the opponent next turn, he is treated as Flanked for the next 10 Rounds.
While is is an awesome and fairly useful way to provide sneak attack, it is fairly feat intensive (at least 2 feats + a level) since uou need at least 2 White Raven Maneuves, White Raven Defence and clarion commander, further more this won't come online until level 9th the earliest and using all your feats on it. For the Feral Dreadlord it does work pretty well;, but for a rogue it is too expensive for it to be worthwhile.
__________________
Avatar by Ceika
Past Avatars/Iron Chef Trophy:
While is is an awesome and fairly useful way to provide sneak attack, it is fairly feat intensive (at least 2 feats + a level) since uou need at least 2 White Raven Maneuves, White Raven Defence and clarion commander, further more this won't come online until level 9th the earliest and using all your feats on it. For the Feral Dreadlord it does work pretty well;, but for a rogue it is too expensive for it to be worthwhile.
Or you buy a couple martial scripts and use it whenever you can afford it. They don't get used up and you can read them again whenever you want. 10 rounds once per combat means you can use it every combat you want.
__________________
Avapony by Dirtytabs!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
Finding out that the ennui and cynicism of our times is not, after all, an unavoidable unreverseable fate does kind of throw your world-view off, potentially.
It depends on the wording, if the scripts grant the maneuver then it is ok (though cheesy in my opinion) but if they instead they let you make strike "as if" you had it then I would say no. OtOH Crown of the White Raven do work.
__________________
Avatar by Ceika
Past Avatars/Iron Chef Trophy:
Ring of Blinking + Pierce Magical Concealment = sneak attack, all the time, forever and ever.
Expensive, though... 27000 GP, and requires three feats (Blind-Fight, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment).
If you're going this route, 3 feats are a heavy tax to avoid that 20% miss chance...
You could limit yourself to the ring; after all, blinking comes with a lot of other goodies (avoid grapples, it's a sort of passwall, and so on)
__________________
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Withman)
Things that increase my self esteem:
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang
Great analysis KA. I second all things you said
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeYounger
Great analysis KA, I second everything you said here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryu_Bonkosi
If I have a player using Paladin in the future I will direct them to this. Good job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grimbold
THIS is proof that KA is amazing
Quote:
Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost
Killer Angel, you have an excellent taste in books
It depends on the wording, if the scripts grant the maneuver then it is ok (though cheesy in my opinion) but if they instead they let you make strike "as if" you had it then I would say no. OtOH Crown of the White Raven do work.
"When you read a script, you gain the
ability to use the single martial maneuver
recorded on it for one encounter."
Sounds like you get the actual thing. I'm not sure how that is more cheesy than any of the items that get you spell uses though?
__________________
Avapony by Dirtytabs!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
Finding out that the ennui and cynicism of our times is not, after all, an unavoidable unreverseable fate does kind of throw your world-view off, potentially.
It seems to should work; but for that you would need to buy the scrolls and depending on the setting getting hold of them might not be easy or even possible. A good way, if a little cheesy, but not very practical in my opinion.
__________________
Avatar by Ceika
Past Avatars/Iron Chef Trophy:
@ Killer Angel: You can't sneak attack if you have miss chance, so you have to get rid of it somehow.
Not exactly. You can't sneak attack if you have a concealment-based miss chance. Blink's miss chance is not concealment, so it does not interfere with sneak attacking.
Other options include attacking with help of Hide in Plain Sight, acting first as you seem to have done (if you can hide and pounce on them again you can prolly do the full attack). Also, Distracting Ember-maneuver from Desert Wind allows full attack sneak attacks though unless you're Swordsage, it's only once per encounter.
Use Magic Device is your friend too:
- Greater Invisibility as a Wand or Scroll of course solves all your problems vs. people who can't see the invisible.
- Wand of Grease, as mentioned before, allows making some people flat-footed unless they have ranks in Balance.
- Scroll of Greater Blinking works of course, though 5th level consumables begin to get expensive.
- You could pick Metamagic Spell Trigger [Complete Mage] feat, provided you have the feats, to use the wand as a swift action (consumes 5 charges each but 750gp wands are fairly affordable). You can also keep a Wand in Wand Chambers [Dungeonscape] to not interrupt your ability to also wield weapons.
- Gaining allies allows flanking of course; hire a Rogue, summon an Outsider, get a Bag of Tricks, whatever.
RSS Feeds: 
Solo trip: How to fully sneak attack?
