Guns are only weapon you need in modern RPG setting?

[Marnath]

Originally Posted by Kalmarvho

A piddly .22 rifle like kids get for their thirteenth birthday is nowhere near as potentially lethal as a gun made for fighting.

You are aware that a majority of firearms deaths in the U.S. are caused by the .22? It's plenty lethal.

[Kalmarvho]

Originally Posted by Marnath

You are aware that a majority of firearms deaths in the U.S. are caused by the .22? It's plenty lethal.

Of course it is, it's a bullet. But the reason the majority of firearms deaths in the US are caused by the .22 isn't because it's particularly lethal, it's because it's the most common round in the US, used in a whole host of weapons that may or may not be suitable for children.

This, of course, may not be the thread for this argument.

[Jerthanis]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Most bullets and guns are designed to fire after immersion. Or most by per capita (per gun-pita?), as a kalashnikov is designed to fire in every bad situation possible.

Wet ammo was just one idea that came to mind. I'm familiar with the AK-47's remarkable worksmanship, but I was under the impression it was a significant outlier that would merit its legend in this capacity, and thus, taking a swim would be a pretty good start to a gun jam/misfire/failure of some kind. If not... well, at least the Predator tricking you into wasting all your ammo is still at least still a plausible scenario.

Originally Posted by Kalmarvho

Of course it is, it's a bullet. But the reason the majority of firearms deaths in the US are caused by the .22 isn't because it's particularly lethal, it's because it's the most common round in the US, used in a whole host of weapons that may or may not be suitable for children.

This, of course, may not be the thread for this argument.

It's the whole "The fact that 95% of shark attacks happen in shallow water doesn't imply that shallow water has 95% of the sharks." situation.

Originally Posted by Cuaqchi

The last part is the most telling, ballistic cloth/kevlar is resistant to pressure but is a woven fabric and as such is easily cut. To protect against a blade you need a heavier - generally metal or ceramic - plate to absorb the impact. This also results in reducing your own reflexes and reaction meaning you have to be even more careful around some one with a knife.

I thought this was a myth. I'm no expert on Kevlar, but I was under the impression that those safety gloves that are supposed to stop circular saws from taking off your fingers were made of Kevlar.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Jerthanis

Wet ammo was just one idea that came to mind. I'm familiar with the AK-47's remarkable worksmanship, but I was under the impression it was a significant outlier that would merit its legend in this capacity, and thus, taking a swim would be a pretty good start to a gun jam/misfire/failure of some kind. If not... well, at least the Predator tricking you into wasting all your ammo is still at least still a plausible scenario.



It's the whole "The fact that 95% of shark attacks happen in shallow water doesn't imply that shallow water has 95% of the sharks." situation.




I thought this was a myth. I'm no expert on Kevlar, but I was under the impression that those safety gloves that are supposed to stop circular saws from taking off your fingers were made of Kevlar.

Kevlar stops a slashing object from doing damage less well than it stops a bullet, but it will still stop it pretty quick. The problem is that kevlar is nearly worthless against a thrust from a knife. The tip of the knife gets in between the woven fibers and the force behind it pushes the weave apart as well as cutting through some of the fibers. It's tensile strength is nothing less than phenomenal but its sheering strength isn't that much better than steel fibers, IIRC.

In a nutshell, it'll stop a bullet (up to a point) and it'll slow a slashing knife, but it doesn't do much better than a really heavy sweater against a bodkin arrow or a thrusting knife.

(protip: that's why "armor piercing" rounds have a much pointier tip than regular bullets. To get through kevlar and to increase the surface pressure at the point of impact on solid armors.)

[Reaper_Monkey]

You need a knife, and an axe too (or a machete if you're in a jungle). Access to grenades also helps (even if they're only flash-bangs). You should generally also have a sidearm and some sort of rifle/fully-automatic/shotgun too really - but a gun is a gun at the end of the day and we're discussing non-gun requirements.

Guns are loud, require ammo (that needs to be carried in addition to the gun itself), they can malfunction and they can easily miss. They are of cause very very good and you should generally never bring just a knife to a gun fight - but without a knife to fall back on, you can quickly find yourself 'out-gunned' in terms of weaponry.

A knife is small, light, serves multiple functions beyond killing (tools are useful) - they can kill more quietly, 'fire' without reloading, and are just as useful for intimidation and "questioning" purposes as a gun is (if not more so) assuming you've disarmed them first.

The axe/machete is primarily for tool use, but also serves as a very capable weapon with much more reach and potential damage when used as such. Regardless of terrain, an axe is invaluable - it lets you cut through doors, cut down trees etc - it basically gives you the ability to alter your terrain and remove obstacles. A machete is more useful in a jungle/heavy undergrowth terrain simply due to an axe not being very good at clearing that kind of thing, but I'd still want an axe to take out the lock on the back door of the hut I'm about to assault so that I can get behind my foes or into a flanking/less well defended position!

Of cause you could just drop large explosives on whatever you're wanting gone - which works well too, more so when you have large explosives which can be precisely targeted (and don't care about the collateral in terms of treasure/hostages/occupation of the land afterwards etc).

[Boci]

Originally Posted by Water_Bear

That's why you don't set games of Hunter; the Vigil in Melbourne

Sounds like it could be fun.

Originally Posted by Water_Bear

and why British zombie-apocalypse movies focus so heavily on the military.

Such as? I haven't seen 28 days/weeks later, but my understanding was it did not focus on military personel, and I know Dead Set didn't. What zombie apocalypse movies set in Britain are you thinking of?

Originally Posted by Water_Bear

Gun Control is great for keeping people from being shot IRL, but in a game it's a really obnoxious handicap for the action.

No more than low magic is for a fantasy setting. They just change the tone of the setting.

[Kalmarvho]

Originally Posted by Boci

Such as? I haven't seen 28 days/weeks later, but my understanding was it did not focus on military personel, and I know Dead Set didn't. What zombie apocalypse movies set in Britain are you thinking of?

The only one I can think of off-hand is Shaun of the Dead. Which is, you know. Not serious at all.

[Boci]

Originally Posted by Kalmarvho

The only one I can think of off-hand is Shaun of the Dead. Which is, you know. Not serious at all.

Shaun of the Dead focused on Shaun + his mates and family, in the rural village setting. The military only show up towards the end, after the climax.

[Kalmarvho]

Exactly. Not much military presence at all.

[DigoDragon]

The value of the gun is going to be dependant on what kind of modern setting you have. In a mundane world without super-powered kryptonians and blood-sucking vampires, a gun would be one of the most deadly weapons and a common staple.
And yeah, a knife is a good back up. Very useful tool for many applications.

However, my favorite modern setting is akin to X-Files and the way my group plays that setting, guns are pretty darn useless against half the supernatural creatures out there. Knives too. We learned the hard way that nothing says "Aggro" to a Jersey Devil like a shotgun shower to the chest.


So in my opinion, Mileage varies by type of modern setting.

Originally Posted by NikitaDarkstar

Knives don't need to be reloaded. :p

Unless it's like that spring-loaded knife The Punisher had in the 2004 movie.

[mishka_shaw]

It's a bit unfair to say knives are better since they are used more in murders and massacres than guns are. I mean you can murder and massacre people with a toilet seat probably, they are unarmed civilians afterall.

Also the damage between the two weapons is unfair to compare due to the comparisons.
Are we comparing pistols to daggers or claymores? are we using hollow-points? what about weapon weight? .etc .etc

[Eldan]

You don't just need guns, silly people. My shadowrun experience showed me that you also need explosives. Oh so many explosives. And armoured school busses with bulldozer blades.

[Ashtagon]

Originally Posted by Kalmarvho

...weapons that may or may not be suitable for children.

What makes a weapon suitable for children? Should I be looking for something that says "for ages six and up"?

[DontEatRawHagis]

I have trouble with some of my players when it comes to the effectiveness of guns vs melee weapons. At some points the arguments invoke the Boxer Rebellion, with one person saying he should be able to block bullets with his katana(Impossible) or that just by closing the distance means that the gun is now useless(Not necessarily).

There is training to escape from grapples to get back to your gun faster in real life. And just because a person is five feet away shouldn't mean that a guy with a pistol or machine gun should be at a disadvantage.

One thing I never got about vampire mythology was if all you had to do was impale them in the heart why couldn't a bullet do the job? Its pointy.

[Eldan]

I have seen the explanation that the object would have to stay in the heart, while the bullet comes out on the other side again. But that doesn't work with vamps who immediately collapse into dust. Alternatively, a special kind of wood is needed. I've seen several "magical" woods cited, Elder, Holly, Rowan, Oak...

Could you make a wood-tipped bullet? Or would that just shatter on impact?

[Heliomance]

I'm not convinced about the supremacy of firearms in WoD. Archery is pretty damn overpowered if you spec for it, mostly because the damage rating of a bow is your strength. Means your dice pool for archery is dex+str+athletics (which unlike other combat skills is also useful out of combat. Everyone wants athletics anyway, so archery means you don't also need to spend points on a combat skill). Archery combat style adds one to that, removes the downsideof only being able to fire every other turn, gives you a silly range and a few other goodies.

Changeling Wizened archers are terrifying, and I hate to think what a Potence using vampire could do.

[Worira]

Originally Posted by DontEatRawHagis

I have trouble with some of my players when it comes to the effectiveness of guns vs melee weapons. At some points the arguments invoke the Boxer Rebellion, with one person saying he should be able to block bullets with his katana(Impossible) or that just by closing the distance means that the gun is now useless(Not necessarily).

There is training to escape from grapples to get back to your gun faster in real life. And just because a person is five feet away shouldn't mean that a guy with a pistol or machine gun should be at a disadvantage.

One thing I never got about vampire mythology was if all you had to do was impale them in the heart why couldn't a bullet do the job? Its pointy.

Wait, wait, are you saying someone cited the Boxer Rebellion as a reason why swords beat guns?

[Water_Bear]

Originally Posted by Boci

Such as? I haven't seen 28 days/weeks later, but my understanding was it did not focus on military personel, and I know Dead Set didn't. What zombie apocalypse movies set in Britain are you thinking of?

The 28 Days/Weeks movies, Shaun of the Dead, that one with the Scottish medieval Reavers; it seems like in every British zombie movie I've ever seen, the civvies spend the movie running away and hiding until the third act when the army comes in to actually kill some zombies. Compare to American zombie movies where the protagonists are killing zombies pretty much the whole run-time, and if the military shows up it's as another human faction to deal with like Raiders.

That's not a slight, but it's a totally different mindset. The British Zombie movies are like "OMG we're doomed because we can't defend ourselves! Horror! " while the American Zombie movies are more "Eat Lead Zombie Dickweeds!! HAHAHAHAHAHA! "

In a modern RPG without guns, you're the George in S1 of Being Human. In a modern RPG with guns, you're Buffy taking the Judge out with a bazooka. I like both shows (though Being Human's new season kind of blows...) but they're not really the same genre.

[Boci]

Originally Posted by Water_Bear

The 28 Days/Weeks movies, Shaun of the Dead, that one with the Scottish medieval Reavers; it seems like in every British zombie movie I've ever seen, the civvies spend the movie running away and hiding until the third act when the army comes in to actually kill some zombies.

Okay, I got confused by your origional wording with implied British zombie movies have military personel as main character.

Originally Posted by Water_Bear

That's not a slight, but it's a totally different mindset. The British Zombie movies are like "OMG we're doomed because we can't defend ourselves! Horror! " while the American Zombie movies are more "Eat Lead Zombie Dickweeds!! HAHAHAHAHAHA! "

To a point yes, but in most Resident Evil movies, despite all their weapons and ability to use them, the protagonists are still constantly on the move for the most part.

Originally Posted by Water_Bear

In a modern RPG without guns, you're the George in S1 of Being Human. In a modern RPG with guns, you're Buffy taking the Judge out with a bazooka. I like both shows (though Being Human's new season kind of blows...) but they're not really the same genre.

I agree, I just found it strange you assumed the former scenario in a game to be "obnoxious handicap for the action".

[Water_Bear]

Originally Posted by Boci

I agree, I just found it strange you assumed the former scenario in a game to be "obnoxious handicap for the action".

Drama =/= Action. True helplessness teaches you alot about a character, but it's not so hot for player agency. It's one of those things that you shouldn't try until you've mastered the system already, because it's so much harder to do correctly.

[Slipperychicken]

Originally Posted by Eldan

Could you make a wood-tipped bullet? Or would that just shatter on impact?

It's called a Crossbow. Or just a regular bow. Or craft a Stake-Gun.

Get the machine-gun crossbow which Van Helsing used in the movies. I know it's complete nonsense, but it would be great for vampires.

[Boci]

Originally Posted by Water_Bear

Drama =/= Action. True helplessness teaches you alot about a character, but it's not so hot for player agency. It's one of those things that you shouldn't try until you've mastered the system already, because it's so much harder to do correctly.

There's a fair amount of space between "true helplessness" and "doesn't have a gun". It would force players to use ingenuity in dispatching zombies, using traps, distractions (depending on the zombie lore) and teamwork.

[Reaper_Monkey]

Originally Posted by Water_Bear

That's not a slight, but it's a totally different mindset. The British Zombie movies are like "OMG we're doomed because we can't defend ourselves! Horror! " while the American Zombie movies are more "Eat Lead Zombie Dickweeds!! HAHAHAHAHAHA! "

Well yes, because us brits tend not to keep armouries in our sheds (just cricket bats and shovels) - and as such can't shoot zombies. But then again, you want to shoot zombies from behind some nice barricades/at range, because one scratch from them and its "welcome to the other side" time.

There's a pretty big difference between "anything but a gun is mostly useless/too dangerous for a standard loadout in a zombie situation" and the same assessment for any other situation. Plus, I'd still carry other non-gun weapons in a zombie setting, as I really don't want to find myself without a weapon when my gun inevitably goes *click*. (In fact my previous assessment of also carrying an axe and knife goes double here. You really should have an axe in a zombie setting, as you're going to need to both make and clear barricades quickly to survive those undead mobs).

[Mark Hall]

Here's the thing about knives, axes, and machetes... they're tools, moreso than weapons. Yes, you may have your killin' knife, and you may have a bayonet, but the main reason you want a knife, an ax, and a machete isn't because they're killing tools, but because you need something to open boxes, chop firewood, and clear brush. If you're killing someone with a wood-chopping ax, it's because it's the convenient tool for the job, not because it's the best tool for the job.

In a modern setting, there MAY be times when a knife is better than a gun. But then, there's also things like tasers, stun guns, and the half-brick in a sock.

Oh, and in OWOD, I think the agg-causing bullets were phosphorous, not sodium.

[Jacob.Tyr]

Originally Posted by Mark Hall

... there's also things like tasers, stun guns, and the half-brick in a sock.

Show me a system that has stats for a half-brick in a sock, and I will buy it from you on the spot.

Although I am more partial to the one-time use pillow case filled with soda cans.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Eldan

I have seen the explanation that the object would have to stay in the heart, while the bullet comes out on the other side again. But that doesn't work with vamps who immediately collapse into dust. Alternatively, a special kind of wood is needed. I've seen several "magical" woods cited, Elder, Holly, Rowan, Oak...

Could you make a wood-tipped bullet? Or would that just shatter on impact?

Task Force Valkyrie agents can buy mistletoe-wood bullets called HOD Rounds that splinter on contact and can 'stake' targets.

[scurv]

There is something to be said about a weapon that makes little to know noise and can render a fatal blow in one swift strike. If you think knifes are not a viable weapon, Do some research on prisons. The below link has some useful information on self defence though

http://www.aware.org/arttruelaw/knifeattack.shtml

But when it comes down to it, A weapon is only as good as the persons ability to use it, And in some modern and even DnD campaigns It is not always permitted in area's to have your weapons on you. So then it comes time to find weapons that blend (think ninja and using tools for weapons) Or straight up putting a poolball in a sock to take across someones face.


But as a soft rule of thumb, it takes one and a half seconds to draw a gun if my memory serves me. That means the person with a knife drawn ten feet away is armed, and you are not. if you are the one with the holstered gun

[Mark Hall]

Originally Posted by Jacob.Tyr

Show me a system that has stats for a half-brick in a sock, and I will buy it from you on the spot.

Although I am more partial to the one-time use pillow case filled with soda cans.

For that explicitly, as opposed to the usual "improvised club"?

[Slipperychicken]

Originally Posted by Jacob.Tyr

Show me a system that has stats for a half-brick in a sock, and I will buy it from you on the spot.

Although I am more partial to the one-time use pillow case filled with soda cans.

It's called a Sap, bro. If you're really picky, Improvised Sap (same stats as Sap, deals lethal damage, -4 non-proficiency penalty).

[ahenobarbi]

Whoa a lot of responses... there are many concerns that are valid in real life but not in RPG I'll try to summarize them and answer why I think they don't apply to RPG characters:

• It's troublesome to get a gun that you can freely use to kill people in real life, but everyone has fists and knifes! Well in RPG you can just put a few points in place where you'd want them anyway (wealth and black market access) and get illegal fire arms, ammo and fake permits from back story.
• Most people don't carry around guns 24/7! That's because they have regular lives, your character doesn't so it should have no problem with that.
• Most people aren't proficient with guns! Yeah, but RPG systems don't care if you spend XP on Firearms proficiency or bare fist fighting, it costs the same.
• But it's easier to get knife into secured place! No. And if you plan to take on heavily-secured place bare fist...
• Guns are noisy! No..
• Guns jam, run out of ammo etc. ! That's why you carry more than one gun and extra ammo.
• But if guy with a knife is next to you you are screwed! Not in any RPG I played.
• But knifes, axes,... have extra utility! So carry them around for utility, not for combat.

Also guns can out damage melee and unarmed fighting (with the same investment) in any (modern) RPG I played. And have range advantage.

Originally Posted by Mark Hall

Oh, and in OWOD, I think the agg-causing bullets were phosphorous, not sodium.

Thanks