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i have been curious to become a lich, and i was wondering how i might start the process of becoming one. I am currently playing a lv.5 CG human sorceress.
The sample lich in monstrous manual 3.5 also happens to be 11th level (the minimum caster level for the phylactery). So I guess... get the wondrous item feat, pay the gold, the xp, etc.
I think I've seen some lower level liches in canned scenarios before. But meh... maybe some third party publication has an artifact that can lich you up?
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Or PAO a lich into a living creature and use True Mind Switch.
Or PAO a lich into a living creature, manifest Fusion, dismiss the Polymorph effect, and manifest Astral Seed, kill yourself, and come back as a gestalt lich.
Or become a necropolitan and pretend to be a lich so people will waste time looking for your phylactery. Magick it up so that the "phylactery" tells you when it's destroyed, so you know someone's out to kill you. Then scry 'n die on 'em.
Except that it doesn't say that you gain the Lich Template.
Quote:
When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich. Her type changes to undead, and she gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual). She no longer has a Constitution score, all her existing Hit Dice become d12s, and she must reroll her hit points. A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery.
Sure, you get a fancy bable, but you're losing out on the Lich immunities, don't gain the +5 Natural Armor, Have a shell of a DR that the Lich has, don't gain the skill bonuses and don't gain the ability score increases. Their is no right way to take the Lich template in a 20 level world
effectively the Dread Necromancer is only getting the Undead template with a Phylactery that does nothing, because it isn't specifically stated as a "Lich's Phylactery".
Walker of the Wastes is the best (imo) way. Fairly powerful PrC and the capstone is becoming a lich with FIVE phylacteries. In other words, undead immortality.
Here is an idea, with the feat Planar Touchstone [the Catalogues of Enlightenment (Domain: Sand or Thirst)] (Planar handbook, page 41 and 166) you can enter the Walker of the Wastes from level 6.
So...
Savage Bard 6/Ur-Priest 2/Walker of the Wastes 10 and you are dry lich.
Edit:
since you are called ''gearsofclocks'' the Meccanus Planar Touchstone feat is also indeed fitting!
Edit2:
Ops... I did not noticed you are already a level 5 sorcerer... Not a big problem, take the feat at level 6 and start the walker of wastes path from level 7.
Edit3:
Dang... I forgot the Sorcerer has no knowledge (the planes) as class skill so normally you cannot pick the Planar Touchstone feat until too late... To join the walker of wastes you need to find a way to cast few spells (available to the sorcerers) in a divine manner...
The feat ''Southern Magician'' plus few levels of retraining and careful selection of new spells should do the trick... maybe.
A part of the feat 'Southern Magician' you need three spells from this list; most from Sandstorm:
1. Parching Touch
2. Desiccate
3. Tormenting Thirst; Haboob
4. Blast of Sand
5. Dispel Water; Flaywind Burst
6. Desiccate, Mass; Symbol of Thirst
7. Vitrify
8. Desert Binding, Horrid Wilting
9. Energy Drain
Edit4 / Edit5:
Checking the tables you should be probably ok in two levels!
When you pass to level 6, you:
- pick the 'Heat Endurance' feat;
- pick Haboob or Tormenting Thrist as new spell for level 3;
- with the sorcerer ability you swap one of your first level spells with Parching Touch;
- with retraining you replace the spell you selected at level 4 with Dessiccate.
When you pass to level 7, you:
- become chaotic neutral
- with retraining you replace an older feat with 'Southern Magician' (if you are not human I hope your DM is reasonable enough to ignore the ridiculous racial requirement).
You can also pick up the new spells when passing to level 7, the important point is that you have 3 spells from the above list.
From level 8 you can finally pick the Walker in the Wastes class. For few level it will be hard probably (suboptimal spell selection and loss of one caster level), but it will pay at the end.
Lich Transformation: When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich. Her type changes to undead, and she gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual). She no longer has a Constitution score, all her existing Hit Dice become d12s, and she must reroll her hit points. A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery.
A dread necromancer who is not humanoid does not gain this class feature.
Looks like there is no clear "gets the lich template", but it says you become a lich anyways, and become undead etc.
Id say DN 20 = Lich.
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|| Grisk@ishrahl (Halfling Trickster Rogue) on Neverwinter online ||
Except that it doesn't say that you gain the Lich Template.
Sure, you get a fancy bable, but you're losing out on the Lich immunities, don't gain the +5 Natural Armor, Have a shell of a DR that the Lich has, don't gain the skill bonuses and don't gain the ability score increases. Their is no right way to take the Lich template in a 20 level world
effectively the Dread Necromancer is only getting the Undead template with a Phylactery that does nothing, because it isn't specifically stated as a "Lich's Phylactery".
I've seen some ridiculous interpretations but this takes the cake. "Lich" is defined in the rules, end of, and the phylactery rules are right there in the MM as part of the lich entry. You don't even need that next sentence, nor does an explanation of what the undead type entails contradict it (since all liches have that type.)
"When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich."
RAW, you become a lich, the details of which are described in the lich template in the monster manual. Any suggestion that you don't actually gain that template in full will directly contradict the above quote, and is thus invalid.
Looks like there is no clear "gets the lich template", but it says you become a lich anyways, and become undead etc.
Id say DN 20 = Lich.
Unfortunately RAW says otherwise. I am now on a quest to find where someone quotes CustServ stating that.
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Originally Posted by Psyren
Necropolitan StP Erudite with Astral Seed imo.
I like this one a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyren
I've seen some ridiculous interpretations but this takes the cake. "Lich" is defined in the rules, end of, and the phylactery rules are right there in the MM as part of the lich entry. You don't even need that next sentence, nor does an explanation of what the undead type entails contradict it (since all liches have that type.)
Why would it need to tell you in the text that you gain the Undead type if the Lich template would just give you that? It lacks any notable features of the Lich template in the Class features description. It list no other benefits of the Lich template beyond the Undead template and directs the reader to the Undead type in the Monster Manual instead of directing the reader to the same page the Lich Template (page 166-168).
Unless it reads "You gain the Lich Template and all its advantages" or "At 20th level, a Dread Necromancer takes on the Lich template." then you are making an assumption, and assumptions are not rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
"When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich."
RAW, you become a lich, the details of which are described in the lich template in the monster manual. Any suggestion that you don't actually gain that template in full will directly contradict the above quote, and is thus invalid.
Neat, you can become a lich, but you don't get the Lich Template.
In my opinion, all considered, the "best way" to become a lich in 3.5 is:
Archivist 3/Walker in the Wastes 10/X 7
Where X is a full casting progression PrC or simply Archivist.
Stronger than Dread Necromancer by far and it avoids ridiculous discussion over RAW.
If the character has some problems getting the Domain spell scrolls, he just have to wait until level 5 and obtaining Black Sand; Haboob and Desiccate as normal level-up spells for the Archivist.
Does not apply to the character of the topic, though, as it is a Sorcerer 5. But it can be obtained there too.
Can we just not have this argument both sides have good points.
It states you become a Lich but only mentions benefits of the Undead type. Which could make sense your not a lich whose paid the costs of XP and gold to make a phylactery, instead its a innate ability
On the other hand it states your a Lich and directs you to the undead type so you get all the benefits of being a Lich which means all the benefits of an undead so its clarifying that.
So either interpretation could be right. There is probably one that falls more within the rules.
But I'd leave it on a Dm/Gm basis
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Unfortunately RAW says otherwise. I am now on a quest to find where someone quotes CustServ stating that.
I like this one a lot.
Why would it need to tell you in the text that you gain the Undead type if the Lich template would just give you that? It lacks any notable features of the Lich template in the Class features description. It list no other benefits of the Lich template beyond the Undead template and directs the reader to the Undead type in the Monster Manual instead of directing the reader to the same page the Lich Template (page 166-168).
Unless it reads "You gain the Lich Template and all its advantages" or "At 20th level, a Dread Necromancer takes on the Lich template." then you are making an assumption, and assumptions are not rules.
"When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich."
There is no other description of what the character becomes apart from the lich template in the monster manual.
That it specifies that you gain the undead type (not template, creature type) changes absolutely nothing about this. In every book printed after a certain point every prestige class that changes a character's creature type has always made sure to point out specifically what that change in creature type entails, along with directing the player to that creature type entry in the monster manual.
A lich is a lich because it has the lich template. A Dread Necromancer 20 becomes a lich. You're saying that he would not have the lich template, but that would mean that he's not actually a lich. You're directly contradicting the RAW, your arguments are absolutely invalid.
"When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich."
There is no other description of what the character becomes apart from the lich template in the monster manual.
It doesn't even describe the Lich Template...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
That it specifies that you gain the undead type (not template, creature type) changes absolutely nothing about this. In every book printed after a certain point every prestige class that changes a character's creature type has always made sure to point out specifically what that change in creature type entails, along with directing the player to that creature type entry in the monster manual.
Some of this is going to need citation. That broad statement where you state that "multiple" other prestige classes that grant templates go into detail to describe the details gained. I'm also curious where that point actually is. Is it conveniently after Heroes of Horror?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
A lich is a lich because it has the lich template. A Dread Necromancer 20 becomes a lich. You're saying that he would not have the lich template, but that would mean that he's not actually a lich. You're directly contradicting the RAW, your arguments are absolutely invalid.
Wonderful my argument is invalid because you believe it is. This isn't Abeir-Toril where if you believe hard enough it becomes a God. If your argument had any ground to stand on it would actually specifically state that you gain the Lich template and not go on to list something completely unassociated to it. Why does it even reference the Undead type and direct you to the MM page instead of just directing you to the Lich MM page?
EDIT: Found out where I saw that Dread Necromancer does not gain the Lich template at 20th level (In the Dread Necromancer handbook ironically enough).
Lich Transformation: According to Wizards Custserv [Incident: 070501-000021], you do not gain the Lich template with this ability . You do gain the undead template and have lich like class abilities. Clarification is needed concerning the phylactery. RAW gives a useless phylactery but the class description implies that you would gain the phylactery ability. If you are already undead, there seems to be no reason to take this level as you only are gaining the 9th level spell and the ability to make a useless wonderous item for free.
Seriously guys, I think gearsofclocks is not very interested about your Liches that are not Liches. Open a new thread.
Quite right. Enough of this derail. If you truly wish to continue to contest the RAW on this matter, please feel free to PM me and I'll answer back at the end of the day (promise!)
Quite right. Enough of this derail. If you truly wish to continue to contest the RAW on this matter, please feel free to PM me and I'll answer back at the end of the day (promise!)
WotC Customer Service is also well know for giving wrong answers, and sometimes answers that even contradict other CustServ replies. Its not the best place to get an answer from.
I believe you can access the Lich template as a Warlock as well. Warlock 12+1 level of a casting class would fulfill the requirements.
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It doesn't look like anyone has said the obligatory "barring DN 20, don't."
Getting the lich template through the standard process is a really sub-optimal thing to do to your caster. Far be it from me to tell you how to build your character, but do realize that eating a +3 LA and giving up your con score generally does more harm than good in a party of similarly leveled characters. The difficulty in getting perma-killed might be worth it for some people though.
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Well, the +3LA is a killer. But I guess most DM just forget it or let buy it off.
On the other hand, I still see the Archivist 10/Walker of the Wastes 10 fairly doable. Archivists have lots of spells and even at level 18 they still get a decent level 9 casting.
It severely hit your spellcasting, but also Sorcerer 10/Walker of Wastes 10 is nice... It is indeed a full SAD character.
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best way to become a lich in 3.5?
