A couple of idiots

[limejuicepowder]

Would two idiot crusaders, each with white raven tactics, get infinite turns? That would make a fairly awesome gladiator team.

[Stu42]

You don't even need two. One crusader can do this by using White Raven Tactics on themself every turn.

[Zombulian]

Originally Posted by limejuicepowder

Would two idiot crusaders, each with white raven tactics, get infinite turns? That would make a fairly awesome gladiator team.

No. Bad. Bad player. It's people like you that get DMs to ban ToB.

[limejuicepowder]

Originally Posted by Stu42

You don't even need two. One crusader can do this by using White Raven Tactics on themself every turn.

Well....using white raven tactics on yourself is a whole other level of cheese, IMO, and pretty clearly not RAI.

Also, I don't think it would be infinite turns. WRT lets the target go at the next initiative count, meaning once the count went down to -10 - (dex mod), which if I recall is the absolute latest a person can act in the round, WRT would no longer be usable....is that right? Or does that rule only apply to delaying a turn?

[Laserlight]

Originally Posted by limejuicepowder

Would two idiot crusaders, each with white raven tactics, get infinite turns? That would make a fairly awesome gladiator team.

So you've got:

1. Ariel takes her turn, at end of turn refreshes maneuvers available
2. Barda takes his turn, including a swift action to reset Ariel's initiative, at end of turn refreshes maneuvers available
3. Ariel takes her turn, including a swift action to reset Barda's initiative, at end of turn refreshes maneuvers available
4. Barda takes his turn, including a swift action to reset Ariel's initiative, at end of turn refreshes maneuvers available.
5. etc

I think the answer is "Yes, unless you're in a game I'm running, then no."

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by limejuicepowder

Well....using white raven tactics on yourself is a whole other level of cheese, IMO, and pretty clearly not RAI.

Also, I don't think it would be infinite turns. WRT lets the target go at the next initiative count, meaning once the count went down to -10 - (dex mod), which if I recall is the absolute latest a person can act in the round, WRT would no longer be usable....is that right? Or does that rule only apply to delaying a turn?

There is no rule establishing a minimum initiative count.

[mattie_p]

I posted an explanation on why Idiot Crusader doesn't work in the last Simple Q&A thread.I invite you to check it out. The entire build relies upon a custserv answer.

White Raven Tactics does work on yourself, but you can't idiot it to refresh every round. Feel free to discuss.

[limejuicepowder]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

There is no rule establishing a minimum initiative count.

I've been unable to find it so far, but I distinctly remember a rule about the maximum amount of time a character can delay their turn. The context of the rule was two characters facing each other down, waiting to see what the other was going to do (in the example, they surprised each other in an ally, and didn't know if the other was going to react with hostility).

Both characters rolled initiative, but neither wanted to act until they saw what the other did. Thus the initiative count kept going down with nothing happening. Once the count got down to some number X that was a function of the character's dex mod (more dexterous characters can delay longer), the character at that point HAD to do something or lose their turn.

From a purely RAW standpoint, there has to be a point at which a character can no longer delay - otherwise, they can literally stop time.

[limejuicepowder]

Originally Posted by mattie_p

I posted an explanation on why Idiot Crusader doesn't work in the last Simple Q&A thread.I invite you to check it out. The entire build relies upon a custserv answer.

White Raven Tactics does work on yourself, but you can't idiot it to refresh every round. Feel free to discuss.

The linked ruling doesn't make a very convincing argument. Basically, it says you must have more available than ready otherwise you'll get to replenish every round....and that's exactly what the exploit is. Just saying "no don't do that" is weak.

[mattie_p]

Originally Posted by limejuicepowder

The linked ruling doesn't make a very convincing argument. Basically, it says you must have more available than ready otherwise you'll get to replenish every round....and that's exactly what the exploit is. Just saying "no don't do that" is weak.

I fail to see the problem. The exploit is found in a custserv ruling - mainly that initiators can only learn a maneuver once.

Originally Posted by CustServ

Q: Can you know the same maneuvers (from Tome of Battle) more than once? Can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time?

A: Actually no, you cannot learn the same maneuvers more than once, nor can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time.

Q: Another multiclass question. Can a multiclassed martial adept (eg. Swordsage/Warblade) choose/and or ready the same maneuver for each of it's classes (provided you have access to the same maneuver)? And if you gain a maneuver in one class, can you use it as a prerequisite in gaining a maneuver in the other class?
A: No, you can only ever learn/ready a maneuver once. If you gain a maneuver in one class it can indeed fulfill prerequisites in another class!

However, CustServ fails to cite any rules text in order to back up this ruling. As I noted, the chapter on Maneuvers says it is "analogous" to the chapter on magic - where sorcerers and wizards are NOT prohibited from learning the same spell in their different classes.

Also note the FAQ entry that classes MUST take class abilities as soon as available, and addresses the Crusader question of fewer maneuvers (albeit indirectly). The FAQ is higher in priority for rules questions than CustServ is, and in this case CustServ directly contradicts the FAQ. The FAQ selection that I posted does not contradict ToB itself, and should stand.

[limejuicepowder]

Originally Posted by mattie_p

I fail to see the problem. The exploit is found in a custserv ruling - mainly that initiators can only learn a maneuver once.
However, CustServ fails to cite any rules text in order to back up this ruling. As I noted, the chapter on Maneuvers says it is "analogous" to the chapter on magic - where sorcerers and wizards are NOT prohibited from learning the same spell in their different classes.

Also note the FAQ entry that classes MUST take class abilities as soon as available, and addresses the Crusader question of fewer maneuvers (albeit indirectly). The FAQ is higher in priority for rules questions than CustServ is, and in this case CustServ directly contradicts the FAQ. The FAQ selection that I posted does not contradict ToB itself, and should stand.

*reading fail on my part*

I just skipped to the second part of the link, and didn't think about what the top said. After reading it properly, I'm inclined to agree with you.

[mattie_p]

Originally Posted by limejuicepowder

*reading fail on my part*

I just skipped to the second part of the link, and didn't think about what the top said. After reading it properly, I'm inclined to agree with you.

That said, you might be able to sneak it past your DM the first time. Use it wisely.

[Aegis013]

Originally Posted by mattie_p

That said, you might be able to sneak it past your DM the first time. Use it wisely.

Even if you can learn a maneuver more than once, I believe it's still possible to make an idiot Crusader assuming a certain interpretation. The only interpretation that is really necessary is that during prestige class advancement you can assign a maneuver known to one class and a maneuver readied to another class even though you get them both at the same level.

Example: Unarmed Swordsage 1/Cleric 3/Crusader 1/RKV 7/Mo9 5
If you assign all of the maneuvers known from prestige class levels to Swordsage and all of the Maneuvers Readied to Crusader, you end up with 5 maneuvers known, but 6 granted, or 7 with Extra Granted Maneuver, from Prestige Class levels, and 2 from Crusader for 9.

The maneuvers you can spam are almost all low level maneuvers unless you push Crusader back to a later level as the original build does, but the concept still functions.

If you interpret that all of the maneuver benefits from a single level of a prestige class can only go to one initiator, then it probably won't work, as the idiot Crusader who can have the same maneuvers on two lists hinges on splitting the benefits from The Master of Nine among two initiator classes.

Unless there's something I totally missed in the discussion of why it doesn't work. If I overlooked something, let me know.

[mattie_p]

Actually, it still won't work (not because I think they must apply all to the same class, I don't) because of the granted maneuvers. Neither Mo9 nor RKV advance the granted maneuvers of the Crusader (because crusaders are DIFFERENT). You can have 20 readied maneuvers, but unless your crusader level advances you only have 2 granted maneuvers at the start of each encounter.

If the ToB had merely stuck to the +1 spellcaster/+1 manifester/ +1 meldshaper mechanics of the other subsystems, we'd be in far better shape, in my opinion.

[scuttlingdeath]

Originally Posted by mattie_p

Actually, it still won't work (not because I think they must apply all to the same class, I don't) because of the granted maneuvers. Neither Mo9 nor RKV advance the granted maneuvers of the Crusader (because crusaders are DIFFERENT). You can have 20 readied maneuvers, but unless your crusader level advances you only have 2 granted maneuvers at the start of each encounter.

If the ToB had merely stuck to the +1 spellcaster/+1 manifester/ +1 meldshaper mechanics of the other subsystems, we'd be in far better shape, in my opinion.

This is wrong. It will in fact work.

Originally Posted by Tome of Battle, p. 96

If you choose to add the maneuver readied to
a martial maneuver progression derived from crusader class
levels, you also gain one additional maneuver granted at the
beginning of the encounter for each additional maneuver
you can ready.

Also, the customer service quotes are the only relevant source that deals with whether or not you can learn a maneuver more than once, as both ToB and the PHB reference are mute.

Unfortunately, CustServ, while notoriously unreliable, is the only relevant source on this subject and is, for once, very clear on this subject (bolded for emphasis):

Originally Posted by CustServ

Q: Can you know the same maneuvers (from Tome of Battle) more than once? Can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time?
A: Actually no, you cannot learn the same maneuvers more than once, nor can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time.

Q: Can a Swordsage or a Warblade ready more than one "copy" of the same maneuver so that he can use the maneuver more than once per encounter without having to spend actions to regain his maneuver(s)?
A: Unfortunately not. Readying a maneuver isn't like preparing a spell. You are either Ready to use the maneuver or you aren't! You can't "Double Ready" a Maneuver! You can only use a given maneuver once per encounter unless you Recover it during the fight!

Q: Another multiclass question. Can a multiclassed martial adept (eg. Swordsage/Warblade) choose/and or ready the same maneuver for each of it's classes (provided you have access to the same maneuver)? And if you gain a maneuver in one class, can you use it as a prerequisite in gaining a maneuver in the other class?
A: No, you can only ever learn/ready a maneuver once. If you gain a maneuver in one class it can indeed fulfill prerequisites in another class!

You, sir, need to spend some quality time rereading your source material, because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Tome of Battle uses, with the notable exception of Iron Heart Surge, some of the most clearly written and easy to understand mechanics. IMHO of course.

[Aegis013]

Originally Posted by mattie_p

Actually, it still won't work (not because I think they must apply all to the same class, I don't) because of the granted maneuvers. Neither Mo9 nor RKV advance the granted maneuvers of the Crusader (because crusaders are DIFFERENT). You can have 20 readied maneuvers, but unless your crusader level advances you only have 2 granted maneuvers at the start of each encounter.

If the ToB had merely stuck to the +1 spellcaster/+1 manifester/ +1 meldshaper mechanics of the other subsystems, we'd be in far better shape, in my opinion.

But on page 96, it says under the Maneuvers Readied subheading "If you choose to add the maneuver readied to a martial maneuver progression derived from crusader class levels, you also gain one additional maneuver granted at the beginning of the encounter for each additional maneuver you can ready."

That seems pretty clear cut that you do in fact get additional granted maneuvers.

Edit: This has been too long to really say ninja'd... was DMing my weekly game, and skimmed over the relevant portion of the above post.

[mattie_p]

Originally Posted by scuttlingdeath

This is wrong. It will in fact work. (see ToB 96)

Ah, missed that, thanks for pointing it out, both you and Aegis. I'll acknowledge a reading fail on that, been a long time since I ran an initiator.

Originally Posted by scuttlingdeath

Also, the customer service quotes are the only relevant source that deals with whether or not you can learn a maneuver more than once, as both ToB and the PHB reference are mute.

Not quite - ToB, p37: Think of this material as analogous to that in Chapter 10 of the Player’s Handbook.

Yes, it is a single sentence in the opening paragraphs of the chapter on Blade Magic. But it is rules text, and refers to other rules text, in the PHB. Also in the PHB:

PHB, p59: Class Features: A multiclass character gets all the class features of all his or her classes but must also suffer the consequences of the special restrictions of all his or her classes.

In the special case of turning undead ... In the special case of uncanny dodge ... In the special case of obtaining a familiar ... they stack.

Spells: The character gains spells from all of his or her spellcasting classes. Thus, an experienced ranger/druid may have access to the spell protection from elements both as a ranger and as a druid. Since the spell’s effect is based on the class level of the caster, the player must keep track of whether the character is preparing and casting protection from elements as a ranger or as a druid.

Nothing in ToB provides an specific exception to the general rule that class features are tracked separately. The rules are not "mute."

Unfortunately, CustServ, while notoriously unreliable, is the only relevant source on this subject and is, for once, very clear on this subject (bolded for emphasis):

You quoted the same CustServ that I did, of course, while omitting the CustServ quotes that actually made it into the published FAQ (as well as the rules on multiclass characters on P59 of the PHB). The ones where crusaders must select their full complements of maneuvers known upon gaining a level, and the ones where class features cannot be delayed. You also ignored the contradictory CustServ answers where maneuvers are kept separate for each class, yet can use maneuvers known from other classes to meet its prerequisites, and that a warblade can lose a maneuver from another class to learn one in its place at 4th, 6th, etc levels.

If you look at all the CustServ quotes on the subject at once, you can see they are contradictory. I don't see how you could adhere to them all at once (selection spoilered for length):

Spoiler

Q. Could a crusader (ToB 8) choose to learn or ready fewer maneuvers than he or she would be entitled to?

No. You must learn and ready the full number of maneuvers entitled to you by your level. Otherwise, you’d be able to cycle through your favorites faster, which defeats the purpose of the crusader’s unique recharge mechanic.

Can a character choose to delay a choice (such as spending skill points or selecting a feat) until a later level?
No. All choices regarding character advancement must be made as soon as they become available. You can’t save skill points from one level to another, nor can you delay selecting a feat from, say, 3rd level to 4th level.

** These two above actually made it into the published FAQ.

Q: If you are a multiclass martial adept (from Tome of Battle), a swordsage/warblade for example, do you have to keep your maneuvers known and maneuvers readied separate for each class?
A: If a character has multiple martial adept base classes, the maneuvers known and readied from each class are kept separate. Knowing a maneuver for one class does not mean you can ready it for the other, or vice versa.

Q: If you have levels in two different martial adept classes (from Tome of Battle), such as swordsage and warblade for example, can you use maneuvers that you have for one class to meet the prereqs for a maneuver in your other class?
A: If a maneuver has a prerequisite that requires you to have a certain number of maneuvers from a certain martial discipline, then it only matters if you have that many maneuvers of that discipline. It does not matter if the maneuvers all belong to the same class.
For example, a swordsage 3/warblade 2 has a single Diamond Mind maneuver from the swordsage class. When this character takes a 3rd level of warblade, they gain another maneuver known and can choose Emerald Razor, using the Diamond Mind maneuver known from the Swordsage levels to qualify.

Q: The maneuvers known description of the crusader, swordsage, and warblade (in the Tome of Battle) state that you can learn a maneuver in place of one that you already know. However, these descriptions are unclear about whether you can learn a maneuver in place of one that you learned through another class. Can you swap maneuvers gained through different classes?
To clarify this with an example, can a crusader 4/warblade 3 who has taken an additional level in the warblade class and learned a maneuver as a result 'forget' a maneuver that he learned through his crusader levels and learn a warblade maneuver in place of that maneuver?
A: Yes, these abilities do not care what the origin of the replaced maneuver is.

**In other words, the maneuvers are kept separate, except that they are not.

Q: Can you know the same maneuvers (from Tome of Battle) more than once? Can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time?
A: Actually no, you cannot learn the same maneuvers more than once, nor can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time.

Q: Can a Swordsage or a Warblade ready more than one "copy" of the same maneuver so that he can use the maneuver more than once per encounter without having to spend actions to regain his maneuver(s)?
A: Unfortunately not. Readying a maneuver isn't like preparing a spell. You are either Ready to use the maneuver or you aren't! You can't "Double Ready" a Maneuver! You can only use a given maneuver once per encounter unless you Recover it during the fight!

Q: Another multiclass question. Can a multiclassed martial adept (eg. Swordsage/Warblade) choose/and or ready the same maneuver for each of it's classes (provided you have access to the same maneuver)? And if you gain a maneuver in one class, can you use it as a prerequisite in gaining a maneuver in the other class?
A: No, you can only ever learn/ready a maneuver once. If you gain a maneuver in one class it can indeed fulfill prerequisites in another class!

** More instances where maneuvers are not kept separate, despite no rules in ToB.

So, if they are kept separate (as I believe), then you can learn them twice (once for each class).

Of course, the idiot crusader with varying amounts of levels in prestige classes can refresh all of their (original) maneuvers every round. (The build Aegis posted won't get White Raven Tactics as one of their original maneuvers. You could get it somewhere in RKV or Mo9, and as I suggested, you can probably get it past your DM exactly once (until he Rule 0's it).)

The original idiot crusader build is not nearly as useful once crusaders (correctly) have to learn all maneuvers as they have to. And with the requirement to have prestige class levels, the only way to swap known maneuvers is with base class levels, so you are stuck with your level 1-2 crusader maneuvers as part of your build.

[Aegis013]

Originally Posted by mattie_p

Spoiler

Ah, missed that, thanks for pointing it out, both you and Aegis. I'll acknowledge a reading fail on that, been a long time since I ran an initiator.



Not quite - ToB, p37: Think of this material as analogous to that in Chapter 10 of the Player’s Handbook.

Yes, it is a single sentence in the opening paragraphs of the chapter on Blade Magic. But it is rules text, and refers to other rules text, in the PHB. Also in the PHB:



Nothing in ToB provides an specific exception to the general rule that class features are tracked separately. The rules are not "mute."



You quoted the same CustServ that I did, of course, while omitting the CustServ quotes that actually made it into the published FAQ (as well as the rules on multiclass characters on P59 of the PHB). The ones where crusaders must select their full complements of maneuvers known upon gaining a level, and the ones where class features cannot be delayed. You also ignored the contradictory CustServ answers where maneuvers are kept separate for each class, yet can use maneuvers known from other classes to meet its prerequisites, and that a warblade can lose a maneuver from another class to learn one in its place at 4th, 6th, etc levels.

If you look at all the CustServ quotes on the subject at once, you can see they are contradictory. I don't see how you could adhere to them all at once (selection spoilered for length):

Spoiler

Q. Could a crusader (ToB 8) choose to learn or ready fewer maneuvers than he or she would be entitled to?

No. You must learn and ready the full number of maneuvers entitled to you by your level. Otherwise, you’d be able to cycle through your favorites faster, which defeats the purpose of the crusader’s unique recharge mechanic.

Can a character choose to delay a choice (such as spending skill points or selecting a feat) until a later level?
No. All choices regarding character advancement must be made as soon as they become available. You can’t save skill points from one level to another, nor can you delay selecting a feat from, say, 3rd level to 4th level.

** These two above actually made it into the published FAQ.

Q: If you are a multiclass martial adept (from Tome of Battle), a swordsage/warblade for example, do you have to keep your maneuvers known and maneuvers readied separate for each class?
A: If a character has multiple martial adept base classes, the maneuvers known and readied from each class are kept separate. Knowing a maneuver for one class does not mean you can ready it for the other, or vice versa.

Q: If you have levels in two different martial adept classes (from Tome of Battle), such as swordsage and warblade for example, can you use maneuvers that you have for one class to meet the prereqs for a maneuver in your other class?
A: If a maneuver has a prerequisite that requires you to have a certain number of maneuvers from a certain martial discipline, then it only matters if you have that many maneuvers of that discipline. It does not matter if the maneuvers all belong to the same class.
For example, a swordsage 3/warblade 2 has a single Diamond Mind maneuver from the swordsage class. When this character takes a 3rd level of warblade, they gain another maneuver known and can choose Emerald Razor, using the Diamond Mind maneuver known from the Swordsage levels to qualify.

Q: The maneuvers known description of the crusader, swordsage, and warblade (in the Tome of Battle) state that you can learn a maneuver in place of one that you already know. However, these descriptions are unclear about whether you can learn a maneuver in place of one that you learned through another class. Can you swap maneuvers gained through different classes?
To clarify this with an example, can a crusader 4/warblade 3 who has taken an additional level in the warblade class and learned a maneuver as a result 'forget' a maneuver that he learned through his crusader levels and learn a warblade maneuver in place of that maneuver?
A: Yes, these abilities do not care what the origin of the replaced maneuver is.

**In other words, the maneuvers are kept separate, except that they are not.

Q: Can you know the same maneuvers (from Tome of Battle) more than once? Can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time?
A: Actually no, you cannot learn the same maneuvers more than once, nor can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time.

Q: Can a Swordsage or a Warblade ready more than one "copy" of the same maneuver so that he can use the maneuver more than once per encounter without having to spend actions to regain his maneuver(s)?
A: Unfortunately not. Readying a maneuver isn't like preparing a spell. You are either Ready to use the maneuver or you aren't! You can't "Double Ready" a Maneuver! You can only use a given maneuver once per encounter unless you Recover it during the fight!

Q: Another multiclass question. Can a multiclassed martial adept (eg. Swordsage/Warblade) choose/and or ready the same maneuver for each of it's classes (provided you have access to the same maneuver)? And if you gain a maneuver in one class, can you use it as a prerequisite in gaining a maneuver in the other class?
A: No, you can only ever learn/ready a maneuver once. If you gain a maneuver in one class it can indeed fulfill prerequisites in another class!

** More instances where maneuvers are not kept separate, despite no rules in ToB.

So, if they are kept separate (as I believe), then you can learn them twice (once for each class).

Of course, the idiot crusader with varying amounts of levels in prestige classes can refresh all of their (original) maneuvers every round. (The build Aegis posted won't get White Raven Tactics as one of their original maneuvers. You could get it somewhere in RKV or Mo9, and as I suggested, you can probably get it past your DM exactly once (until he Rule 0's it).)

The original idiot crusader build is not nearly as useful once crusaders (correctly) have to learn all maneuvers as they have to. And with the requirement to have prestige class levels, the only way to swap known maneuvers is with base class levels, so you are stuck with your level 1-2 crusader maneuvers as part of your build.

I always thought the only each maneuver once was something that fell in the rule of DM adjudication, as I've always seen both interpretations as reasonably valid (clearly there are arguments for both sides). Although, I never thought you could delay maneuvers. The benefit of the interpretation in which you can't learn a maneuver more than once is getting fewer maneuvers in your first level of Crusader so you can add more maneuvers known from prestige classes down the road, instead of adding them to your secondary initiator class. Not that you could delay the ones you didn't learn until later. I thought they were simply lost, as you could not benefit from them when you gained them.

Also, as far Idiot Crusader and DM allowance, I've been thoroughly surprised how many cheese intolerant DM's have allowed it at their tables. I made sure they understood what it would do and what levels it could do it, as well.

[mattie_p]

Originally Posted by Aegis013

Also, as far Idiot Crusader and DM allowance, I've been thoroughly surprised how many cheese intolerant DM's have allowed it at their tables. I made sure they understood what it would do and what levels it could do it, as well.

While the players have responsibility to build their characters legally, the DMs have to ensure not only legality, but integration with the team. Honestly one idiot crusader at a table isn't terrible (with the rules I've posted) but 2 that WRT each other to infinite actions per round make it insane - and a definite rule 0 target at my table.

Speaking of which, I need to check out the 1d2 crusader to see if that is legal (or relies upon the idiocy that I believe I have refuted), I haven't looked at the build in detail.

[Aegis013]

Originally Posted by mattie_p

While the players have responsibility to build their characters legally, the DMs have to ensure not only legality, but integration with the team. Honestly one idiot crusader at a table isn't terrible (with the rules I've posted) but 2 that WRT each other to infinite actions per round make it insane - and a definite rule 0 target at my table.

Speaking of which, I need to check out the 1d2 crusader to see if that is legal (or relies upon the idiocy that I believe I have refuted), I haven't looked at the build in detail.

Ah, yes, I don't support double idiot WRT or idiot WRT+Moment of Alacrity+Divine Impetus Cheese except at the appropriate games.

As far as the d2 Crusader, I do believe it is legal. The steps are: Imbued Healing Feat from Complete Champion with Luck Domain selection and a dagger that does 1d2 damage (usually by shrinking yourself down to the appropriate size to wield such a weapon), plus the Aura of Chaos.

D2 Crusader isn't something I try to fly by DM's ever. Unlike Idiot Crusader.