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when a plan is awakened it is give 3d6 for all of its mental stats
but one of my players of an upcoming campaign is trying to claim that he can be a symbiotic human plant with 18 + 3d6 for all of his mental stats since the plant he is bonded with was awakened with an empowered maximized awaken.
now that ive looked into it, im not sure he can apply empower or maximize to the awaken spell. Though the stat gains are variables, the spell is a saving throw based spell so i believe that it would not work.
He claimed he read on the forum that this is works and is perfectly acceptable. I on the other hand am not so sure. If i openly claim that he can't do this he will now doubt complain endlessly because it supposedly says somewhere on the forum he can. I was hoping someone may be able to shed so more light on this.
"What's the level adjustment of the Awakened template? How about Animated Object template? Oh there isn't one? Than it isn't available for player characters, only npc's."
Last edited by Gavinfoxx : 11-18-2012 at 12:23 AM.
The feat combo does in fact work. The saving throw line means only that the DCs of the saving throws are not increased by the feats. Only the variable numeric effects (which 3d6 is) are affected.
However as Gavinfoxx said, Awakened plants are treated as Animated Objects, which have an LA of -, meaning they aren't suitable for PCs.
If he whines when you say no, give him the burden of proof - if he can't show you exactly where on the forums he's 'allowed to do this', he can't. And if he can, show him this thread and say he can't anyways.
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I'm a little confused as to what exactly a symbiotic human plant is...I believe awaken can be maximized and empowered. The way I read the feat is that saving throws and opposed rolls are not altered by empower or maximize, not that having a saving throw excludes the spell from being empowered or maximized. The example in the maximize spell description is an empowered maximized fireball, which has a saving throw for 1/2 damage.
Answered upthread
If the player wants to be difficult just say that a symbiotic create has a shared consciousness, and that intelligence isn't additive. So what you have is a intelligent person with an equally intelligent plant attached. Personally I would allow the plant to be awakened, then promptly decide to take root and give up this mammalian movement nonsense, or strangle him and absorb him as nutrients.
I believe you guys are missing the point... He said symbiotic... WITH an awakened plant. While I believe he is in some way correct that it could have been empowered/maximized and awakened the template for symbiotic is ultimately a background part of his character. As a DM I would rule that there are very few awakened SYMBIOTIC plants out there and those that are empowered/maximized are even more rare and would not end up on a low level character, and therefore he should take the symbiotic plant and roll stats as normal without empowered/maximized, as either way this will net him higher stats than normal plus the immunities from being plant-like.
Wouldn't the easiest answer be to apply the Symbiotic Template from Savage Species?
This neatly avoids the "i want to add scores" issue by pointing to existing rules.
Quote:
Symbiotic is a template that can be added to any two living creatures of the following types: animal, humanoid, plant, or vermin. [...] One (hereafter referred to as the guest) must be at least two size categories smaller than the other (hereafter referred to as the host).
[...] Abilities: Use the physical scores (STR DEX CON) of the host and the mental scores (INT WIS CHA) of the guest (minimum INT3).
Depending on the size of the awakened plant, either he can't do it (no size difference), he's mentally in control with the plants physical scores (tree-borg), or he becomes an NPC because the plant takes him over for its own desires.
Last edited by dungeonnerd : 11-18-2012 at 12:34 AM.
The Symbiotic Creature template, in Savage Species, which combines a 'host' with a 'guest' to create an end result. That end result has a +1 LA, uses the HD and physical stats of the Host, and the mental stats of the Guest. You retain all of the special attacks and special qualities of both creatures. The Host must be at least two sizes larger than the Guest, and both must be from the animal, humanoid, plant, or vermin creature types. Also note that the end result's creature type changes to Aberration, so he would not retain any benefits of the plant creature type (immunities, etc.).
Just to point out, that's one of the more abusable templates in the game due to the fact that it ignores the HD and LA of the Guest. At least he's not trying to throw Paragon onto the Guest.
Awaken can be cast on an animal or a tree, nothing else. An Empowered + Maximized Awaken will give an awakened tree Int, Wis, and Cha scores each of 18+(3d6/2), which will average 28.5. Note that an awakened tree is friendly toward the individual who cast Awaken, and with the plant creature type they're immune to anything mind-affecting, which could include Diplomacy at the DM's discretion.
Note that a friendly attitude is not enough for it to permanently bond to another creature unless it's in the best interest of the awakened tree, assuming the potential Host is even the one who cast it. Also keep in mind that trees are extremely long-lived and grow quite large, so it would probably prefer to attach to a creature which will live quite a long time and give it the greatest room to grow, so the bigger the potential Host the better. Remember that a Host can only accommodate a Guest of two sizes smaller. It may outright abandon the PC for the first giant that crosses their path, as that would give it hundreds of years and plenty of room to grow.
So there you have it, almost zero chance of convincing an awakened tree to become a Guest unless you cast Awaken yourself or you happen to be quite large and are expected to live hundreds of years. Think of the Ents from the Lord of the Rings and their attitude toward adventure, that's how an Awakened Tree would feel so it would be far more likely to attach to a lazy ogre. Even if a PC gets one as a Guest, it could abandon him without any notice if a bigger, less adventurous potential Host were to reveal himself. So by DM discretion, it actually balances itself.
Maximize and Empower work seperately from each other.
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Originally Posted by SRD
Maximize Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.
So it'd be max(3d6) + .5(3d6).
That said, I think it's a cool idea - even though it isn't RAW, couldn't you and the player work something out?
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Indigo is a much more appropriate colour for sarcasm, don't you think?
Blue is strictly for emphasis.
And grey is kind of like an aside to my main point.
anyone who wants to make a Symbiote creature should already have their character concept banned, as it typically will include a Paragon Intensified Awakened Dread Blossom Swarm.
The Symbiotic Creature template, in Savage Species, which combines a 'host' with a 'guest' to create an end result. That end result has a +1 LA, uses the HD and physical stats of the Host, and the mental stats of the Guest. You retain all of the special attacks and special qualities of both creatures. The Host must be at least two sizes larger than the Guest, and both must be from the animal, humanoid, plant, or vermin creature types. Also note that the end result's creature type changes to Aberration, so he would not retain any benefits of the plant creature type (immunities, etc.).
Just to point out, that's one of the more abusable templates in the game due to the fact that it ignores the HD and LA of the Guest. At least he's not trying to throw Paragon onto the Guest.
Awaken can be cast on an animal or a tree, nothing else. An Empowered + Maximized Awaken will give an awakened tree Int, Wis, and Cha scores each of 18+(3d6/2), which will average 28.5. Note that an awakened tree is friendly toward the individual who cast Awaken, and with the plant creature type they're immune to anything mind-affecting, which could include Diplomacy at the DM's discretion.
Note that a friendly attitude is not enough for it to permanently bond to another creature unless it's in the best interest of the awakened tree, assuming the potential Host is even the one who cast it. Also keep in mind that trees are extremely long-lived and grow quite large, so it would probably prefer to attach to a creature which will live quite a long time and give it the greatest room to grow, so the bigger the potential Host the better. Remember that a Host can only accommodate a Guest of two sizes smaller. It may outright abandon the PC for the first giant that crosses their path, as that would give it hundreds of years and plenty of room to grow.
So there you have it, almost zero chance of convincing an awakened tree to become a Guest unless you cast Awaken yourself or you happen to be quite large and are expected to live hundreds of years. Think of the Ents from the Lord of the Rings and their attitude toward adventure, that's how an Awakened Tree would feel so it would be far more likely to attach to a lazy ogre. Even if a PC gets one as a Guest, it could abandon him without any notice if a bigger, less adventurous potential Host were to reveal himself. So by DM discretion, it actually balances itself.
A few corrections:
The tree can't abandon you. Yes, it can Detach, but it has no ability to attach to anyone who isn't you.
The tree, except when detached, isn't an NPC. A symbiotic creature is one creature, not two, and thus is played by the player.
A template's level adjustment applies on top of the base creature's level adjustment. Since there are two base creatures in this case and neither is given clear priority, you have to read the template to see which is referred to. When such a listing is absent, you wait for errata before using the template. So in this case we need to wait for errata that will never come. Sigh. But regardless, there is no a priori reason to think either the host or the guest is favored. Note that Tauric specifies this detail, if in the wrong place, so clearly the writers knew what was required.
Becoming a symbiotic creature doesn't necessarily involve choice, it's an acquired template but we don't know how it's acquired, so there is no reason that the tree needs to be helpful first.
As a side issue, do you have any evidence that Diplomacy is [Mind Affecting]?
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Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf
One of the unwritten rules of Giantitp is that Urpriest is always right.
First, the text of Awaken says "Target: One animal or tree" and "The touched animal or tree gains sentience", so the plant must be a tree, hence, not smaller than himself, so the human would be the small creature of the template (and the three would be at least Huge, with 8 HD).
He couldn't use the 18 to every mental stats of the Maximized Awaken spell, because the smaller creature is the one giving the mix its mental stats.
He could still roll the abilities of the human being and put the str, dex and con at 3, while he raises the int, cha and wis to a maximum, BUT then comes the second point:
The symbiotic creature has +1 LA due to the symbiotic template, plus at least 8 aberration HD of the awakened three, plus maybe +1 or +2 LA for the awakened creature.
So he wants to play a freakish (everybody will fear and hate him) aberration of Huge size with dex 8, 8 racial HD and +1 to +3 LA? Be unable to use armor and weapons that aren't custom-made? In exchange for a strength of 20 (which a half-orc can get without level adjustment) and high mental stats (but he will have to reach level 10 before being able to cast a spell)? Let him do it.
Last edited by Clistenes : 11-18-2012 at 01:03 PM.
First, the text of Awaken says "Target: One animal or tree" and "The touched animal or tree gains sentience", so the plant must be a tree, hence, not smaller than himself, so the human would be the small creature of the template (and the three would be at least Huge, with 8 HD).
I imagine the idea is to use a bonsai tree.
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Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf
One of the unwritten rules of Giantitp is that Urpriest is always right.
We have the stats for an animated tree or an awakened tree.
Just which rulebook gives the stats for a Bonsai Tree and says it's targetted as a tree?
This is a build using RAW as it's justification, you don't get to declare a thing exists unless you can point to it in a rulebook. If it isn't the size of a tree as found in the monster manual or stated in it's stat block in some source in use to be targettable by spells that target trees then it isn't available to awaken as a tree.
RAW builds need to follow RAW. This doesn't.
But even if I conceaded the existence of this made up item with no RAW justification, and even if I then conceaded that it's a legitimate target for the spell despite the spell not saying that made up plants are such targets, and even if I conceeded that symbiotic can use made up creatures that are less than their natural size (like using an infant efreet and claiming to get it's wish and full adult mental abilities at smaller size) then I'd still need to be convinced that the now awakened bonsai will let anyone KEEP it a bonsai tree by drastically overpruning now that it's awakened and mobile. Good luck with that.
We have the stats for an animated tree or an awakened tree.
Just which rulebook gives the stats for a Bonsai Tree and says it's targetted as a tree?
This is a build using RAW as it's justification, you don't get to declare a thing exists unless you can point to it in a rulebook. If it isn't the size of a tree as found in the monster manual or stated in it's stat block in some source in use to be targettable by spells that target trees then it isn't available to awaken as a tree.
RAW builds need to follow RAW. This doesn't.
But even if I conceaded the existence of this made up item with no RAW justification, and even if I then conceaded that it's a legitimate target for the spell despite the spell not saying that made up plants are such targets, and even if I conceeded that symbiotic can use made up creatures that are less than their natural size (like using an infant efreet and claiming to get it's wish and full adult mental abilities at smaller size) then I'd still need to be convinced that the now awakened bonsai will let anyone KEEP it a bonsai tree by drastically overpruning now that it's awakened and mobile. Good luck with that.
I think you would use the stats of a tiny animated object but giving it a constitution stat. Other people says that you should use the physical stats of a treant, as Liveoak, but I think the most correct thing is to use an animated object as a model.
Anyway, I think a bonsai wouldn't count as a tree. We only call the bonsais "trees" for cultural reasons, but if you found that in nature you wouldn't call it a tree.
EDIT: I found the definition of tree "In botany, a tree is a perennial woody plant with a single main trunk taller than about 2 metres, with xylem tissue in the trunk and branches that continues to enlarge during the life of the plant by the process of secondary growth."
Last edited by Clistenes : 11-18-2012 at 02:04 PM.
We have the stats for an animated tree or an awakened tree.
Just which rulebook gives the stats for a Bonsai Tree and says it's targetted as a tree?
This is a build using RAW as it's justification, you don't get to declare a thing exists unless you can point to it in a rulebook. If it isn't the size of a tree as found in the monster manual or stated in it's stat block in some source in use to be targettable by spells that target trees then it isn't available to awaken as a tree.
RAW builds need to follow RAW. This doesn't.
But even if I conceaded the existence of this made up item with no RAW justification, and even if I then conceaded that it's a legitimate target for the spell despite the spell not saying that made up plants are such targets, and even if I conceeded that symbiotic can use made up creatures that are less than their natural size (like using an infant efreet and claiming to get it's wish and full adult mental abilities at smaller size) then I'd still need to be convinced that the now awakened bonsai will let anyone KEEP it a bonsai tree by drastically overpruning now that it's awakened and mobile. Good luck with that.
There are no stats for trees, period. Awakened trees gain animated object stats, and animated objects exist from Tiny up to Colossal, so all that the RAW says on that score is that a tree must be in that size range. What is the typical size of an Awakened Tree? Huge? Gargantuan? We have no way of knowing, short of examining real trees.
As for objecting to pruning, remember, the tree is part of the PC now. It does whatever the PC wants it to do. Familiars and the like have reason to be DM-controlled, but in this case it's literally the same creature due to how the Symbiotic template works. That said, pruning might do damage, which would be a problem. Also, probably it won't grow past Tiny during the typical matter of months it takes an adventurer to go 1-20.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf
One of the unwritten rules of Giantitp is that Urpriest is always right.
you're playing in a weird game. honestly, I didn't know that symbiotic was a template until reading this thread. best of luck to resolving this situation, I don't think I have further rules clarifications that haven't already been mentioned.
you're playing in a weird game. honestly, I didn't know that symbiotic was a template until reading this thread. best of luck to resolving this situation, I don't think I have further rules clarifications that haven't already been mentioned.
Trees actually go fairly frequently into the colossal category (like redwoods), or even colossal+ (largest tree ). That would be the coolest symbiote of all time.
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By RAW they can't do it at all because there is no listed LA. But you can decide what you think is a fair LA and then let the player play it.
As a rule of thumb I'd say 4 int or 4 AC is worth about an LA. But note that physical abilities and mental abilities don't combine well. So you should base LA on the higher of the two, plus only a little more to account for the other. Likewise for multiple mental stats since most casters only use 1.
Hardness 5 (for most purposes: DR 5/-, and reduced damage from energy attacks as well)
Speed 30 ft.
Slam 1d6 + 1.5 str mod
Constrict 1d6 + 1.5 str mod
Darkvision 60 ft., low light vision
Plant Type
2 racial hit dice: d8s, 2 + int skill points, +1 BAB, +3 fort/+0 ref/+0 will
2 LA
Yes -4 caster levels hurts a lot but save DCs similar to +12 caster levels are very nice and so are the defenses. Especially plant immunities. In a high optimization game I might say 1 LA though. I went with a medium tree because I assume the player wants a caster. Larger trees would add more racial hd, but hey whatever he wants.
Anyway, I think a bonsai wouldn't count as a tree. We only call the bonsais "trees" for cultural reasons, but if you found that in nature you wouldn't call it a tree.
You can very rarely find natural bonsai, though they're pretty huge compared to the bonsai you see in garden centres.
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