General Anime/Manga Discussion: Twelve Thread-doms

[Prime32]

Previous threads:
General Anime Discussion (née The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya)
General Anime Discussion A's
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G General Anime Discussion - Typing FINGER!
Anime/General Discussion: Paradox Thread
Anime 2.0: You Can (Generally) Discuss
General Anime Discussion: The 08th GAD Team
General Anime Discussion: Not An Anime!/⑨ is the strongest!
General Anime Discussion: After War GADam X
General Anime Discussion: Area 11

[Tengu_temp]

Gundam 00... for starting off your movie with an in-universe movie about the events of the show... all is forgiven. A+

"I wasn't in it..."

Being Saji is suffering.

[HamHam]

But then the actual movie was pretty silly.

Dammit 00, stop being so bipolar.

[Nerd-o-rama]

So I just watched the 2nd nanoha movie today and I'd have to say I liked the series more. It seems that they truncated some things oddly and Admiral Lindy just happening to have Durandal on hand struck me as odd. I also missed the shadow puppeteers that the TV show had.

One thing that I LOVED though was everything Signum related (as is only right and proper). The revision to the bow in the climax scene and the attack just made had me laughing with the awesome absurdity of it. If those two companies keep up this sequence of tribute chicken we're going to have a cannon crossover in a Super Robot Wars game that will have the most ridiculous scene ever with Lamia, Excellen, and Signum.

STURM FALKEN PHOENIX.

Ahem.

Anyway, I think most of the changes they made to the film served a few purposes well, but meant it wasn't as straight of an adaptation as we might have liked. Cutting the Admiral Graham subplot (and giving the Defense Program some personality and separation from Reinforce to be a proper antagonist) saved a lot of time, and most of the rest of what was cut was mainly cool but redundant dueling (and, sadly, "Takamachi Nantoka"), and most of what was added was to make sure that new audience members understood the Wolkenritter's motivations.

Durandal is poorly explained under this theory, but it's not hard to get both its significance and why Lindy has it based on her flashbacks. It was kind of irritating she didn't get to fight properly after teasing us like that, but whatever, she gets to shoot the big rainbow lasers.

[Scarch]

I just watched King of Thorn. Very well drawn, interesting story, good overall.

[Soras Teva Gee]

STURM FALKEN PHOENIX.

Ahem.

Anyway, I think most of the changes they made to the film served a few purposes well, but meant it wasn't as straight of an adaptation as we might have liked. Cutting the Admiral Graham subplot (and giving the Defense Program some personality and separation from Reinforce to be a proper antagonist) saved a lot of time, and most of the rest of what was cut was mainly cool but redundant dueling (and, sadly, "Takamachi Nantoka"), and most of what was added was to make sure that new audience members understood the Wolkenritter's motivations.

I seem to recall a lot of the Reinforce/BoD material is basically stuff from the side materials like the manga already so it is a rough analogue to Fate's expanded past in the first movie.

But yeah with only something like half the running time its obvious stuff had to be taken out. Only unlike the first series/movie A's provides a lot less easily dispensable material.

Durandal is poorly explained under this theory, but it's not hard to get both its significance and why Lindy has it based on her flashbacks. It was kind of irritating she didn't get to fight properly after teasing us like that, but whatever, she gets to shoot the big rainbow lasers.

Even knowing I was likely being teased didn't entirely take the sting out of that one. Oh well might as well ask for more Yuuno.

[Tengu_temp]

Yuuno exists in the movies?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yuuno exists in the movies?

Well there's a brown haired boy dressed in green and brown... but we see so little of him it can't be confirmed.

[Sith_Happens]

I just watched King of Thorn. Very well drawn, interesting story, good overall.

I could barely follow what was going on in that movie, especially near the end. Of course, it didn't help that I was watching it at a convention, 80+ feet from the screen and with white subtitles in a movie full of bright backgrounds.

[Scarch]

I could barely follow what was going on in that movie, especially near the end. Of course, it didn't help that I was watching it at a convention, 80+ feet from the screen and with white subtitles in a movie full of bright backgrounds.

Mmm, there's not much plot until the end. Plot spoiler:

Spoiler

Show

The main character had actually died, and then her sister wished her back. The petrifying virus is a disease that came from outer space and had the ability to create whatever an infected person wished/dreamt.

[Terraoblivion]

So after a three month delay on production and ten days on Crunchyroll translating it, Girls und Panzer has finally ended. I have to say that the show is far better than something called Girls und Panzer has any right to be. It isn't anything deeply profound or meaningful, but it does the underdog sports formula extremely well, spicing it up with the sport in question being tank battles. Not just that, but the battles are surprisingly well-choreographed and clever, rarely repeating tricks or resorting to typical shounen-style shorthands like special moves that are always the best. Instead they rely on use of the terrain, knowing the enemy and the tanks on both sides.

Beyond the overall plot framework and the tank fights, the characters are likable and the show knows when to flesh a character out and when to leave a minor character sketchy and mostly defined by a few, simple quirks. A few of the major characters experience real, meaningful character arcs over the course of the show and the three main ones were surprisingly thoughtful and realistic, even if they follow the heroic tradition of characters improving as people somehow. I'm also amused by how much it takes its absurd premise and runs with it, going deliberately over the top in presentation at times and adding further absurdity simply because it seemed fun. It still also manages to take it and turn it around to say some clever things about the arbitrary, constructed nature of gender roles. But I guess the quality of the writing, at least, is to be expected from a show written by Reiko Yoshida, even if it's the weakest show by her I've seen.

Still, there are flaws. The premise is very silly and the plot goes for spectacle over substance, just like most of the characters are very simple and one-dimensional. There aren't really any surprises for anybody who has watched an underdog sports movie or anime before either. They just aren't really important to me since the show is some of the best in the genre of light entertaining and does interesting stuff with gender roles.

[HamHam]

So after a three month delay on production and ten days on Crunchyroll translating it, Girls und Panzer has finally ended. I have to say that the show is far better than something called Girls und Panzer has any right to be. It isn't anything deeply profound or meaningful, but it does the underdog sports formula extremely well, spicing it up with the sport in question being tank battles. Not just that, but the battles are surprisingly well-choreographed and clever, rarely repeating tricks or resorting to typical shounen-style shorthands like special moves that are always the best. Instead they rely on use of the terrain, knowing the enemy and the tanks on both sides.

Beyond the overall plot framework and the tank fights, the characters are likable and the show knows when to flesh a character out and when to leave a minor character sketchy and mostly defined by a few, simple quirks. A few of the major characters experience real, meaningful character arcs over the course of the show and the three main ones were surprisingly thoughtful and realistic, even if they follow the heroic tradition of characters improving as people somehow. I'm also amused by how much it takes its absurd premise and runs with it, going deliberately over the top in presentation at times and adding further absurdity simply because it seemed fun. It still also manages to take it and turn it around to say some clever things about the arbitrary, constructed nature of gender roles. But I guess the quality of the writing, at least, is to be expected from a show written by Reiko Yoshida, even if it's the weakest show by her I've seen.

Still, there are flaws. The premise is very silly and the plot goes for spectacle over substance, just like most of the characters are very simple and one-dimensional. There aren't really any surprises for anybody who has watched an underdog sports movie or anime before either. They just aren't really important to me since the show is some of the best in the genre of light entertaining and does interesting stuff with gender roles.

Well you convinced me to check this out...

is this setting going to start making sense at some point or...

[Fri]

Nah, from what I heard you're just supposed to accept it. A setting where tank combat is a girl's sport.

Anyway I've been watching Jojo's Bizarre Adventure lately. It's glorious. The first arc is a bit slow, but the second arc is awesome. And the two op theme and the ending theme are catchy as hell. But is it true that it's going to end at episode 25 and not going to adapt the next arcs? I heard it's accepted really well in japan. I really hope they're going to adapt next arcs.

I'm also currently watching Space Battleship Yamat 2199. Mostly just because a series (any medium) about a battleship is so rare.

And the other thing I'm watching is Sasami-san@ganbaranai. Holy crap this series is weird.

[HamHam]

Nah, from what I heard you're just supposed to accept it. A setting where tank combat is a girl's sport.

No see I was willing to let it have that. I was even willing to ignore how horribly dangerous such a sport would be. At least until they just drifted their match into a residential area and this is apparently completely normal.

But when your characters go to school in a city on top of an aircraft carrier, I start to want some kind of explanation.

[Kato]

Yeah... Girls und Panzer is... weird, to some degree. I kind of stopped watching in the middle though I guess I might as well finish it now that it's ended. The whole "shooting each other with live ammunition" thing is probably my biggest problem because even though it's not that much weirder than anything else on the show it just bothers me.
Also, it's extremely moe. And at least back when I was still following it the subbers added German to the subtitles because when you think of tanks, you think of Germans (well, and "Panzer" is German for tank)

[Terraoblivion]

There's an explanation for the carriers in episode 7, it's pretty silly and amusing, but also matters for the overall plot. In general, they knew the premise was silly, so they made a silly world to fit it into and just ran with it.

And I wouldn't say it's all that moe, Kato. Not even if you ignore the original connotations of vulnerability moe has and just take it to mean cute girls doing cute things. Most of the show is made up of tank battles that focus on the actual fighting and tactics, rather than on the girls being cute during the battles.

[Closet_Skeleton]

And I wouldn't say it's all that moe, Kato. Not even if you ignore the original connotations of vulnerability moe has and just take it to mean cute girls doing cute things. Most of the show is made up of tank battles that focus on the actual fighting and tactics, rather than on the girls being cute during the battles.

Its still moe in 'genre' even if the moe bits are so forgettable when you're only watching for tanks. If by 'moe' you actually mean post-K'On at least.

[Tengu_temp]

I think this discussion proves that the word "moe" has lost any meaning at this point, other than "this show has mainly/only female characters in its main cast".

On a sidenote, when will Gargantia come out?

[Terraoblivion]

Which makes complaints about moe quite problematic, really. Because when moe can't be defined beyond that, disliking it essentially means saying not liking to watch shows about female characters.

[Kato]

Before there is any misunderstanding, I don't mind it being moe. I guess the term isn't that clearly defined but to me it doesn't mean "a cast made of girls" (though I guess it is often something that happens in shows which are moe) but just that it's art and tone is quite cute. e,g, even if Death Note had an all female cast I certainly wouldn't consider it moe and I'd not be sure if I would call Madoka moe even though it has a rather cute art style for... most normal segments. But Girls & Panzer is clearly very cute in it's entirety. There're people who like it, there're people who dislike it and that's it (to me)

[Scarch]

I just started watching a series called Otogizoushi, and it is absolutely amazing. The drawing style is very artsy with good color composition, and the plot, dialog, and character development are all incredible. It feels like a film or OVA with the amount of detail they've put into it.

It is set in ancient Japan during the tenth century. The story revolves around a young woman who disguises herself as a man and her faithful retainer and body guard who have set out to recover a mysterious artifact with magical power. Not to mention they are endlessly pursued by ninja assassins.

I think I'm going to explode from the sheer awesomeness!

[Soras Teva Gee]

Before there is any misunderstanding, I don't mind it being moe. I guess the term isn't that clearly defined but to me it doesn't mean "a cast made of girls" (though I guess it is often something that happens in shows which are moe) but just that it's art and tone is quite cute.

Yeah my thoughts on that too. Moe is not just any girl heavy cast, or it would beg how it ever didn't apply and it was really so universal it wouldn't exist.

Moe is identifiable, just loosely. As close as I can get would be: girls who appeal through cuteness.

Now what makes any particular thing "cute" is of course partially in the eye of the beholder. But inevitably a good chunk of people will create a common ground on this to establish a default. Something true of most aesthetic visual considerations, heck moe is pretty close to a fashion trend. That what goes into this is inherently arbitrary maybe the case, but is no less true.

I can't look at something like this and not draw conclusions about Girlz und Panzer. Among them is using moe style coded girls. That's not a statement on its quality good/bad but its certainly there. (And that's not a very moe pic, but I get that vibe from the way the girls on it are drawn)

[Tengu_temp]

And yet it's not much of a moe show. Maybe a little bit, but certainly not "extremely", like Kato put it. Most of it focuses on tank battles, and the slice of life elements are more about the weird quirks of the setting than cute girls doing cute things.

It's usually a bad idea to judge a show by its cover these days. Bodacious Space Pirates, Rinne no Lagrange, heck, even Azumanga Daioh, which is far from recent - all of those might be easily mistaken for moe shows. Which wouldn't be so much of a problem if that word didn't have so many negative connotations.

[Sith_Happens]

Spoiler

Show

Just watched the entire first series and felt like dropping this here. Any relevance to the current topic of discussion is entirely coincidental. Carry on.

[Terraoblivion]

Moe used to have a definition. It was cute, vulnerable girls whose vulnerability aimed at triggering protective instincts in men. That's a good, solid and clear definition. Using the term derisively about anything with a large cast of cute girls, drastically circumscribes not only the possible visual designs of female characters, but the type of female characters stories can be told about.

Just like Bodacious Space Pirates, GuP is not about the cuteness of the girls. Where it in the former case is about Maria's growth into her role as a pirate captain, exploring the universe created for the show and showing tactical stand-offs in space, GuP is about a team of underdogs finding camaraderie and winning against all odds while also showing cool, clever action scenes. You could swap the entire cast out with burly male convicts or asexual robots and have to change very little about the basic plot or the fights. I wouldn't want to, because it'd lose the statements about gender and the way it does its small part in broadening the field of acceptable pursuits for traditionally feminine girls, but you could. And that's why there's no real definition of moe under which GuP is an extremely moe show, other than anything with a large number of cute, female characters and being derisive about that is hugely problematic.

[Tengu_temp]

Spoiler

Show

Just watched the entire first series and felt like dropping this here. Any relevance to the current topic of discussion is entirely coincidental. Carry on.

Oh yeah, I knew I forgot one good example of a seemingly-moe show when I wrote my post. And I even had Nanoha in mind when I started writing it, just forgot in the middle.

[Matthias2207]

I thought moe meant "like Mikuru Asahina". If it's an all female cast I wouldn't call it moe. That would be more... girly? Catered to girls? Suspicious absence of males? Good starting point for a slashfic?

[Terraoblivion]

That's what moe used to mean, but the term has been watered down over the years to mean any cute girl in anime, more or less. Also, it would be hard to make slashfic of a show without male characters, what with slash specifically refer to pairings of two men. Now femslash, on the other hand.

[Tengu_temp]

Funnily enough, I don't find Mikuru that moe, which shows that in addition to having a very loose definition that only got more watered down over time, that term is also really subjective. Yuki is way more moe for me, from Haruhi characters.

Also, an all-female cast for an anime sometimes means it's a female-oriented show, but at least just as often it means the intended audience are adult otaku.

[Terraoblivion]

She has the vulnerability, though, and play to protective instincts both ICly and OOCly. That she doesn't play it straight and is a deliberate ploy by her in-universe superiors and Tanigawa is less important in terms of immediate appearance. That said, Yuki's isolation from others, her confusion over who she truly is and the power her superiors hold over her is a more straight example.