Real Cheese

[Morty]

I've seen in several threads that people are calling something 'cheese' and 'munchkining' without any real reason. I know that there is huge gap between powergaming and munchkining, but I have one question now: can someoneone make an example of really cheesy build? I'm just curious. And yes, I've seen pun-pun. I just want to see other cheesy builds.

[Arang]

There's always the Hulking Hurler: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=142565

[shaka gl]

Hey, about that, im from Argentina, and though i can handle "regular" english, i have no idea what is "cheese" (in rpg, not the lactosa intolerant`s nemesis) and "munchkin"...

[Were-Sandwich]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchki...aying_games%29

[shaka gl]

Oh, okay. So, munchkin is what we here call "Powergamers" (yes, in english)

And for what i can decipher, Cheese is what we here call FRUIT, meaning something that is, although powerful, senseless and ilogical (like the monk).

[Bryn]

Sort of. As I understand it, although this may be wrong, a powergamer tries to find the best combination of feats and abilities within the rules to make an powerful character. A Munchkin ignores rules, fudges dice rolls, and generally cheats in order to gain an advantage.

[Pegasos989]

Originally Posted by shaka gl

Oh, okay. So, munchkin is what we here call "Powergamers" (yes, in english)

And for what i can decipher, Cheese is what we here call FRUIT, meaning something that is, although powerful, senseless and ilogical (like the monk).

Actually, munchkin goes further than powergamer. Powergamer tries to create as strong character as he can, munchkin does the same but often breaking the rules, ignoring something "minor" (like what stacks and what doesn't), etc.


Also, cheese might be logical (like polymorph. Wizards changing shape is very big part of traditional fantasy) but it is just too damn powerful so most people shun away from it, some abuse it and some try to use it without going to abuse.


Anyways, how can you call monk powerful?

[shaka gl]

There was a monk in my party, and i can tell you that, with the right equipment, the monk is more powerful than any other melee class.

[Pegasos989]

Originally Posted by shaka gl

There was a monk in my party, and i can tell you that, with the right equipment, the monk is more powerful than any other melee class.

Agreed. If I give monk +10 to all stats -item and +20 to all rolls -item, he becomes more powerful than others who only get cursed items.

With equal equipment for everyone, monk is not in the strong end.

[shaka gl]

Im not talking about giving him THAT much equipment, but with the same money, our monk was, at lvl 10, stronger than the fighter. And the speed increment is just insane. I dont know, for me, the table doesnt fit the description of the class. Maybe its not overpowered, but the class doesnt make any sense (not even in a game with fireballs and shapechanging people)

[Necomancer]

Everyone has their own sense of balance. In some groups the monk might be overpowered but heres the thing, every group is diffrent.

As for the diffrence between power gamers and munchkins, honestly I think its a thin line. I always figured muchkins abused the rules without breaking them, finding the best possible combos for the best possible power to the point of being alot more powerful then anyone else. To me a power gamer is someone who does this without going above and beyond to compete with others. He simply wants to be strong enough to hold his own in combat.

Thats my personal definition, others might disagree but eh. I call people who cheat cheaters myself. Personaly I dislike munchkins and power gamers both, as they both make the focus of the game power and force others to have to compete to them to keep up.

[cupkeyk]

Uhm, there is the Divine meta-cheese cleric. Basically it's just a cleric with a decent amount of charisma, the feats Extend spell, persistent spell and divine metamagic. Plus those funky incense or eagle's splendor and the charm domain or extra turning. The planning domain even grants extend spell for free. The idea is to buff yourself with 24 hour duration buffs.

The zoomaster druid, with the feats spell focus(conjuration), Augment summoning. If Eberron, the next feat is Ashbound; if Rashemi Elemental Summoning. Imbued Summoning and Rapid Summoning are always ideal. All druids take Natural spell at level 6. Basically you overwhelm your opponents with summoned creatures too strong for anyone to beat.


Less cheesy:
A barbarian/bear warrior/warshaper/frenzied berseker.

A Coma mage, focusing on ability damage spells like ray of exhaustion/escalating enfeeblement/chill touch(Str), shivering touch(dex), Feeblemind/Touch of Idiocy/Ray of stupidity(Int) and basically memorising the monster manual to have player knowledge which of the three stats is lowest in any or all the monsters. Plus a wizard's vast array of battlefield control, offensive/defensive buffs.

The Artificer or the Incantatrix with wands that are maximized/empowered.

At levels 1-3, the chain fighter with combat reflexes and improved trip.

The shadowhand swordsage with both weapon finesse and shadowblade, plus power attack.

The warblade with blade meditation, skill focus(concentration), and discipline that deals 1d20+(concentration modifier, at least +15) damage at level 5 with Insightful Strike. Make that a rapier and critical 15% of the time)

The halfling outrider/wild plains outrider that can full attack with a lance on a charging mount and still make a ninety degree turn on a desmodu hunting bat(the only medium sized mount from MM2).

That's just from the top of my head. Monks will never be on this list. Not even Vow of Poverty Monks.

[Bears With Lasers]

Originally Posted by shaka gl

Im not talking about giving him THAT much equipment, but with the same money, our monk was, at lvl 10, stronger than the fighter. And the speed increment is just insane. I dont know, for me, the table doesnt fit the description of the class. Maybe its not overpowered, but the class doesnt make any sense (not even in a game with fireballs and shapechanging people)

Then your fighter was doing something wrong. Any remotely well-built fighter can devastate an equal-level monk in melee combat.

[TheOOB]

Anything with initiate of the sevenfold veil gets automatic cheese points, as does anyone who uses alter self, polymorph, polymorph any object, shapechange, and the calling function of gate.

[TheThan]

Hmm lets see if I can explain Cheese better…


The slang cheese originally comes from the video game subculture. In which someone would find something within the rules that gives the player a greater advantage over the other players (beyond skill level obviously). This advantage might be a tactic, weapon, super move, combo, chosen character, or anything else that is not overt cheating or exploiting (as in exploiting a glitch or something similar).

Clearly its been adopted by RPG gamers and other groups.

[Skyserpent]

Originally Posted by shaka gl

Oh, okay. So, munchkin is what we here call "Powergamers" (yes, in english)

And for what i can decipher, Cheese is what we here call FRUIT, meaning something that is, although powerful, senseless and ilogical (like the monk).

Please don't bring that in here. Monks are totally logical if you understand their oriental wire-fu roots and honestly not that powerful. They suck at combat compared to fighters and their skill set is much weaker than rogues, and their AC leaves much to be desired. GRAH! *rage*



Not the point. Real Cheese would have to be a Polymorphing Sorcerer turning into any number of insanely strong creatures. War Troll with 18th level Spellcasting? Yeah... you get the picture.

[Fizban]

Min/Max: the practice of minimizing weaknesses and maximizing strengths. Common sense really, if you don't do at least a little of this you're pretty abnormal.

Powergame: the practice of increasing one aspect of your character to ridiculous levels. Not so much min/maxing, as a powergamer will rarely care if he weakens a certain aspect (say, AC) in favor of the one he wants (say, damage).

Munchkin: a powergamer who reaches new levels of power by ignoring rules he doesn't like.

Cheese: normally something that's more powerful than it should be, often by simple neglect of the designers to account for the rest of the game. Gate, polymorph, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil: all of these seem balanced, but with just a little experimentation they become broken.

For more answers, see the common acronyms and abbreiviations thread.

[Matthew]

Ah, Fizban. If obly it truly was this clear cut, but the Acronyms and Abbreviations Thread isn't even this clear. Munchkinism doesn't have to be cheating; it can be just going against the spirit of the game in order to 'win'.

[Fizban]

Well the impression I've gotten from the more knowledgeable people is that one would probably also be fudging the rules, which is quite against the spirit of the game. Powergaming is against the spirit of the game, but they're still two different things. Trying to "win" is the main defining factor then.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

yeah; I do agree that there is no "Winning" in DnD. Beating the BBEG of the week; or even the BBEG of the campaign is not Winning. DnD is about cooperation, friendship, and going with your strengths.

[Matthew]

Originally Posted by Fizban

Well the impression I've gotten from the more knowledgeable people is that one would probably also be fudging the rules, which is quite against the spirit of the game. Powergaming is against the spirit of the game, but they're still two different things. Trying to "win" is the main defining factor then.

I have heard that expressed a number of times. Doesn't seem to be the case, according to Wikipedia or even our very own Acronyms and Abbreviations Thread. There's a lot of overlap between terms. I always just think of it as synonymous with 'Jerk'.

[Tibor]

Originally Posted by Matthew

Munchkinism doesn't have to be cheating; it can be just going against the spirit of the game in order to 'win'.

Indeed. I consider good arcane spell casters who cast spells with the [Evil] discriptor to be munchining. I do not however consider min/maxing to be against the spirit of the game or munchkining. Really min/maxing is the exact spirit of D&D as a character is trying to become the best (insert class here) that they can.

[Demented]

Technically, Cheese is a food that goes with everything. It always tastes good. It's usually healthy. It works well in any recipe. There is a kind of cheese for every situation. Wherever you go, you can always rely on cheese. Whatever you do, you can always rely on cheese. Whoever you're dealing with, you can always rely on cheese. Cheese is the solution to everything and anything.

Cheese may be used by munchkins, but Cheese is not munchkiny.
Every problem can be solved by Cheese.
Every battle can be won by Cheese.
Every party needs Cheese.
Cheese is the Cleric.

...And maybe the Wizard. =P

In other games, Cheese is the first, last, best, and (for some) the only choice if you want to win. Cheese is imba. Cheese is zen. Cheese is cheese.

That is "Real Cheese".

[Beleriphon]

Originally Posted by cupkeyk

The Artificer or the Incantatrix with wands that are maximized/empowered.

I'm to second the artificer using feats and class abilities to burn extra charges from wands for straight damage. Add in the ability to change the damage type by applying metamagic on the fly to a wand and you have an artifcer buring all 50 charges on a new wand of fireballs to create 46d6 acid fireballs.

[Bears With Lasers]

You can only do the charges-for-metamagic thing with one metamagic at a time. Which is bad enough. Persistent?

Oh, and Artificers have an infusion that lets them apply one of their metamagics to a wand for free. So wrong. "Persistent this! Persistent that! Do I win yet?"

[Beleriphon]

Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers

You can only do the charges-for-metamagic thing with one metamagic at a time. Which is bad enough. Persistent?

Oh, and Artificers have an infusion that lets them apply one of their metamagics to a wand for free. So wrong. "Persistent this! Persistent that! Do I win yet?"

Right, but you can burn extra charges for straight damage by taking Cannith Wand Adept. Sure you have to be human and have the Cannith dragonmark, but bwuh!

[Jack Mann]

Originally Posted by Fizban

Powergame: the practice of increasing one aspect of your character to ridiculous levels. Not so much min/maxing, as a powergamer will rarely care if he weakens a certain aspect (say, AC) in favor of the one he wants (say, damage).

Not really. Powergaming, as it's generally used on these boards, simply means making your character more powerful. Period. In D&D, one is forced to powergame to some extreme. When your barbarian greatsword-wielder takes power attack instead of skill focus (craft [macrame]), you're powergaming. If you do not powergame to some extent, you will be unable to assist your party.

Certainly, powergaming taken to extremes is bad. Working to show up the other players by being the biggest badass of all is a bad thing. But working to make an effective character? This is a good thing. You should be trying to make a character who can contribute to the group. And you know what? It doesn't even make you a bad roleplayer. You can be good at powergaming and good at roleplaying. Being good at the one doesn't make you bad at the other, nor vice versa. You can be good at both of them. Or bad at both of them. Or just one. There's really no correlation between powergaming and roleplaying ability.

[Morty]

Originally Posted by Jack Mann

Not really. Powergaming, as it's generally used on these boards, simply means making your character more powerful. Period. In D&D, one is forced to powergame to some extreme. When your barbarian greatsword-wielder takes power attack instead of skill focus (craft [macrame]), you're powergaming. If you do not powergame to some extent, you will be unable to assist your party.

Certainly, powergaming taken to extremes is bad. Working to show up the other players by being the biggest badass of all is a bad thing. But working to make an effective character? This is a good thing. You should be trying to make a character who can contribute to the group. And you know what? It doesn't even make you a bad roleplayer. You can be good at powergaming and good at roleplaying. Being good at the one doesn't make you bad at the other, nor vice versa. You can be good at both of them. Or bad at both of them. Or just one. There's really no correlation between powergaming and roleplaying ability.

Not taking Skill Focus(basketweaving) but Power Attack instead is optimization, not powergaming, if you ask me. Not making character-gimping choices isn't powergaming.
Anyway, my look on that is that optimization and powergaming aren't mutually exclusive with RPing, and munchkining/cheese/whatever is.

[Ramza00]

Some ideas of Cheese in my mind (of varying cheese lvl):
Shivering Touch
Persistent Wraithstrike
Persistent Unfettered Heroism (that is the spell that gives 1 AP per round right?) Especially when combined with Wand Surge (spend 1 AP instead of a charge for a wand or staff)
Celerity
Incantatrix,
Divine Metamagic
Dwemeokeeper
Certain uses of White Raven's Tactics

[Shazzbaa]

Originally Posted by Jack Mann

Not really. Powergaming, as it's generally used on these boards, simply means making your character more powerful. Period. In D&D, one is forced to powergame to some extreme. When your barbarian greatsword-wielder takes power attack instead of skill focus (craft [macrame]), you're powergaming.

Okay, now see, I agree that powergamers are not necessarily bad. But I think most people don't use the word to quite this extent.

Powergaming, in my book, is a focus on optimisation. To some people, optimisation is a means to an end (making a viable character so that you can be the character you wanna be), to powergamers, optimisation in and of itself is important. Though I'm agreed that it doesn't make roleplaying unimportant.

However, that doesn't make every shred of optimisation powergaming, and it doesn't mean everyone's to some extent a powergamer. I play video games on occasion, but I'm not a gamer. I become a gamer when the playing of video games, in and of itself, is an enjoyable thing that I'm willing to put time and energy and practise and sometimes research into. Almost everyone has drawn something, but this doesn't make everyone an artist. I become an artist when I find art to be enjoyable in and of itself, and to be something that's worth putting time and energy and practise and sometimes research into.

You're a powergamer when you enjoy optimising in and of itself, and you're powergaming when you're putting time, energy, practice, and sometimes research into optimisation, consistently, because it's fun.