V's Gender Debate IV [Official]

[Black_Light83]

It's a dude, get over it

[Tura]

The right question about V's gender issue (the wrong question being, of course, "what is V's gender?") is:

What sort of person is
1) intelligent (fairly obvious)
2) married (223)
3) able to understand as much as any other, if not better, love and lust (223, 262, 335, 365)
and at the same time
1) unable to recognize gender differences (237)
2) perfectly aware of said inability? (385)

So here's my answer: it's just a meta-gaming joke.

And it goes like this. Meta-gaming is when you act/think not as your character, but as a player who has read some rulebooks. Let's examine those rulebooks. When it comes to PCs, gender is a "purely aesthetic choice", with no impact whatsoever on your abilities, rolls etc. You'll never find in the books any explanation about gender differences, because, for playing purposes, there aren't any. In fact, gender is mentioned only in the drow section, which is not the case, and in humorous stuff like the Bitch Rule, which is anything but "core". Furthermore, some books use the male pronoun as a generalization ["if a player dies, HE..."], some use the female pronoun ["SHE.."] and some use both ["HE or SHE..."]. So, if your knowledge about the universe depended on those books, wouldn't you be a bit confused about genders too?

Therefore, I theorize that V has studied thoroughly the rulebooks, and, armed with all this knowledge, is perfectly capable of surviving almost any encounter and understanding any role-playing difficulty. Except genders. And if you insist about the wrong question, V's actual gender, the answer wouldn't be male, or female, or anything in between, but rather something like "never chose one", or "didn't understand the question", or "who cares, it makes no difference anyway".

Sounds plausible? :)

PS - Of course, if V's big secret (328), which may or may not be connected to his/her matrimonial state (224), is also connected to the gender issue, then it gets far more complicated - though without rendering this explanation completely worthless. Yet.

PS2 - I haven't read "On the Origins of PCs" (they just don't send it over here :/ ), so I sincerely hope I haven't missed something crucial about all this...

[Futility]

I'd like to suggest that we may finally have a pretty strong hint from the comics as to V's femaleness. This hint takes the form of, to put it as carefully as possible, the onomatopoeia used when the arrow hits the "anti-arrow-shield-of-purpleness". I won't elaborate - draw your own conclusions.

[Ronsian]

My money is they are male, but not in the straight sense. Most of the female reasons would work (fashion, time of month, inability to discern gender, etc.), as well as male. I don't quite think you can have intelligence be a factor, as elves probably have a different brain set-up, and even if the Giant said why many people wouldn't agree. Plus, the whole "It took me and my mate a long time to discover our love for each other.", sounds to me like it took awhile liking a guy. But anyway, my 2 cents.

[Setra]

Originally Posted by Black_Light83

It's a dude, get over it

I have a sudden urge to sing...

Duuuuude looks like a ladeh!

[PerryTatchett]

Has anyone noticed that the the plurality of men say "Female" and the plurality of women say "Male"? (Note: Plurality because many people are unsure, or think that Rich hasn't chosen one sex (Not gender! Gender means what form a word gets, not male/female! Yay! I'm up to double parenthesis!) or another.)
Just something I've noticed looking over this thread.

[Daibhid C]

Originally Posted by Luinil_Carak

The face V makes in 237 when Haley makes the comment about it being 'roy's time of month' was pretty much the typical male reactionary face, too.

Not really; it's more an expression of total confusion, because V's gender ambiguity is so complete, (s)he apparently doesn't even notice gender differences in others, and therefore has no idea what Haley's talking about.

[Lilt]

I always figured 'male'. Reasons:
Female characters in the strips have generally had breasts.
Nothing has ever made me think 'female' about what V has done.
V's actions and speech have always seemed more 'male' to me.

[Caeneus]

V's gender is androgynous. That's a perfectly valid gender. S/he has a few characteristics of both male and female, and doesn't seem to care whether other people think of her as male, female, or neither. As for V's sex, well... I don't think it matters. Maybe V is physically male, maybe female, or maybe V is intersex. It's not important though. As long as his/her parter is okay with it (and apparently they are) then it's fine.

Or maybe I'm just seeing V as an androgyne because that's sort of what I am and I want to identify with him/her.

Oh, and if V wore the belt of gender changing... probably nothing would happen, but I find it far more amusing to imagine that s/he would gain strong characteristics of both sexes, eg beard and breasts or something.

[UncredibleHallq]

I used to think Vaarsuvius was female, largely thank to #123 (where Haley was rooming with V). My opinion was smashed by #365 and #385, however. In the former, V is not remotely surprised to see "Elan" kissing a male member of the city guard, suggesting an indifference to gender. In the latter, V admits outright to being clueless in gender matters. These episodes, along with a few others, suggest V should be seen as neither male or female but extremely androgynous.

It's not quite that simple, however. I've read significant portions of these gender-debate threads, and there is something to be said for this argument, as well as the argument that V was originally called "he." It's also noteworthy that even if you take the view that V's gender has always been ambiguous, the ambiguity has gotten more extreme with time. This was gradual process. Looking back, I realize that the more extreme indicators of ambiguity did not start with #365, but merely culminated there.

I've come to the conclusion V's gender went through 3 stages:

1) Originally designed as male
2) After some people reported confusion, Rich decided to play up the ambiguity, which meant dropping heavy hints contrary to the original intention, such as 123.
3) Finally, Rich decided to develop V as a character who's self-understanding is androgynous, at least by human gender standards (leaving open the possibility that he sees elves as being generally less concerned with gender).

[Varsuvius_Pwns]

What if V has weirdly mutated and has lost all forms of gender, dear god! He should've stopped those wizarding experiments! I still think he is male though. Lilt is right too.

[Varsuvius_Pwns]

Well, there is lots of reasons for each gender, BUT V IS DEFINETLY NOT INSANE.

[Tolkien_Freak]

Thread necromancy. In a V's gender thread nonetheless! It's two of the board's worst nightmares rolled into one...

[GrayMatter]

Gut feeling plus a couple of small hints here with covering the eyes and here with being concerned that Haley would find out Elan had been intimate with someone else - Female.

[Emperor Ing]

I saw a fanart of realistic drawing of the OOTS characters, and i swear, it made V look more female than (s)he does in the webcomic (sorry for the lack of a link ). Besides, I dont think ANY man does their hair like V does it, but thats a question for another time

V IS FEMALE!! GET OVER IT!!

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Originally Posted by The Randomizer

Besides, I dont think ANY man does their hair like V does it, but thats a question for another time

Actually, most elves in the Lord of the Rings movies had roughly that hair style.

Then there is also this dude...

[Hungry Kobold]

I've always considered V to be female since V always reminded me of the girls from Peanuts for some random reason.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Originally Posted by Hungry Kobold

I've always considered V to be female since V always reminded me of the girls from Peanuts for some random reason.

Well, here, simple enough to compare...

[WutAmI]

V's gender is elf. enough said.

[BanjoTheClown]

V's a Girl.

[WutAmI]

I think V's wearing Schroedinger's britches

[Parasocrates]

Originally Posted by UncredibleHallq

[...] and there is something to be said for this argument, [...]

Wow. That is one of the most convincing arguments for V's sex I have ever seen, and the first one based on quantifiable physical evidence. Yay phrenology!

[Icewalker]

I basically didn't realize there was any debate over it until V was called 'he' by the wizard in Azure City. I always assumed V was female, due to occasional pointers such as the conversation with Haley about the crystal balls, and rooming only with Haley. I'd say the biggest one was being part of the 'whore attack' in the inn with Haley and gender-changed Roy.

[mockingbyrd7]

Originally Posted by Parasocrates

Wow. That is one of the most convincing arguments for V's sex I have ever seen, and the first one based on quantifiable physical evidence. Yay phrenology!

Fascinating, BUT: Remember that V was originally intended to be male and Rich probably didn't bother changing V's eyes now that V was classified as "unknown gender". Especially since if Rich changed V's eyes to female, people would insist that V was female.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by UncredibleHallq

It's not quite that simple, however. I've read significant portions of these gender-debate threads, and there is something to be said for this argument, as well as the argument that V was originally called "he."

Wow, that is some evidence from the past.

I posted one of those comparisons when the Giant first let slip that he made the eyes on the females lower to account for hair, and that he liked the result so much he incorporated it into canon after the "art upgrade".

When I did my comparison I took heads from way back in the day... and yes, Vaarsuvius' eyes were very close to the "median" line back then (but not consistantly so). SInce the art upgrade, V's eyes have been smack in the middle.

I've come to the conclusion V's gender went through 3 stages:

1) Originally designed as male
2) After some people reported confusion, Rich decided to play up the ambiguity, which meant dropping heavy hints contrary to the original intention, such as 123.
3) Finally, Rich decided to develop V as a character who's self-understanding is androgynous, at least by human gender standards (leaving open the possibility that he sees elves as being generally less concerned with gender).

That is indeed what a few of the Moderators hinted at back in the day. V was more than likely Male, but with several people making clear they thought V was a she (including a few original Mods) the Giant decided to make it "less than clear".

He even pretty much said so once (without revealing which gender V was intended to be), but there is no way I'm hunting through every post he ever made to try to find it.


Now on to less serious thoughts...

Originally Posted by WutAmI

V's gender is elf. enough said.

I love the way your shapely mind works... let us away, just you and me to other threads were we can bring our ideas to bear against the forces of Seriousness and leave them shattered in our terrible wake...

[Mewtroid]

I figure V was probably female at one point in time. She may or may not have been involved in an incident that removed obvious gender traits during her magic training. Or, maybe she's a female wearing a Belt of Gender Changing? Roy's experience with the belt left him looking a tiny bit masculine despite the boobs, IIRC.

[mohair_ninja]

I think that elves in OotS world have at least three genders, as bees:
female (=queens, eg. Lirian),
male (=drones, no evidence found)
and asexual workers (eg. ).
In elven society there are two layers: the first one consists of female(s) and male(s), and the second is made of workers. The workers often marry each other, but they cannot have any children. Males and females can have children of each of three sexes, and they also can mix with humans, giving half-elves.
For those who paid attention during Biology lesson, here's the rest of my theory:

Spoiler

Elven females have XX chromosomes.
Elven males have XY chromosomes, however, their sperm cells can have either
X, Y or no gender chromosomes. The most of them have none.
has one X chromosome - the most common combination.
However, this theory implies, that most of offsprings of elven male and human female would suffer of the Turner syndrome. Maybe then T. syndrome is lethal for halfelven embryos?
Apart of that, for bees it works completely different, and the difference between bees' queen and workers is not determined by genome.

I know, it's complicated a bit, but I suppose I've made a good thought experiment here

[Tal9922]

Well, i'm gonna go out and call him a male. For all those who figure we shouldn't debate on his gender, well, you may be right, but Giant said he'll never reveal his gender, so i always figured it's up to the reader to decide. I always thought he was a male before i even knew of the gender debate, probably because his name is a man's name, more so than a female.

[WutAmI]

Originally Posted by mohair_ninja

I think that elves in OotS world have at least three genders, as bees:
female (=queens, eg. Lirian),
male (=drones, no evidence found)
and asexual workers (eg. ).
In elven society there are two layers: the first one consists of female(s) and male(s), and the second is made of workers. The workers often marry each other, but they cannot have any children. Males and females can have children of each of three sexes, and they also can mix with humans, giving half-elves.
For those who paid attention during Biology lesson, here's the rest of my theory:

Spoiler

Elven females have XX chromosomes.
Elven males have XY chromosomes, however, their sperm cells can have either
X, Y or no gender chromosomes. The most of them have none.
has one X chromosome - the most common combination.
However, this theory implies, that most of offsprings of elven male and human female would suffer of the Turner syndrome. Maybe then T. syndrome is lethal for halfelven embryos?
Apart of that, for bees it works completely different, and the difference between bees' queen and workers is not determined by genome.

I know, it's complicated a bit, but I suppose I've made a good thought experiment here

or perhaps all full elves are androgynous, but in their contact with humans may or may not adopt a gender identity to facilitate it, and V finds this practice distasteful.

[Zarron]

Originally Posted by Holy_Knight

Just after that comment, Elan says: "Unless he's half-dromedary..."

So Elan does in fact perceive Vaarsuvius as a male.


Here's an interesting note: Has anyone who's actually in the Order ever questioned V's gender, other than Belkar? As far as I can remember, he's the only one to have ever actually stated that they saw V as ambiguously-gendered. All of the others have either indicated that they perceived him as one thing, or not said anything about it at all. In fact, now that I think about it, there's only one other character in the whole series that I can recall saying they were unsure about V's gender, and that's the horse parking ticket person. Am I right about that? I think it may be significant--I'll post more about it after I've thought some more.

Here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/image...zpCm5rnfE8.gif

Roy refers to V as "androgynous." (I sort of skipped ahead, hopefully this is repeating anything).