So, I finally got SOD and I've been wondering something.
Spoiler
In a few posts I've heard people Say that they want Right eye's zombie corpse to be destroyed so that he can be resurrected. my Question is this. why would he WANT to be resurrected? Most of his family is probably dead and with him in whatever afterlife he went to. Does this guy really have ANY motivation to come back?
So, I finally got SOD and I've been wondering something.
Spoiler
In a few posts I've heard people Say that they want Right eye's zombie corpse to be destroyed so that he can be resurrected. my Question is this. why would he WANT to be resurrected? Most of his family is probably dead and with him in whatever afterlife he went to. Does this guy really have ANY motivation to come back?
Spoiler
If he thought he could help destroy Xykon, he might.
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Spoiler
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan
If he thought he could help destroy Xykon, he might.
Spoiler
I guess that's true. However, Xykon is an epic level Lich. Right eye is some form of rogue or other class that gets sneak attacks and uses an axe for some odd reason. He can't really do a whole lot at this point
The title says SPOILERS on it, so I'm not gonna spoiler text this:
I suppose Right-Eye might consent to being resurrected if he thought, really thought, that his resurrection would help his brother see sense or that he could help take out Xykon this way. But it's iffy... he didn't exactly part on great terms with Redcloak, and he doesn't strike me as fool enough to think he actually would have a chance against Xykon. Why would he want to leave most of his family to help the one member of the family who killed him?
Why would he want to leave most of his family to help the one member of the family who killed him?
Because he still loves him?
I mean, I know that they were on pretty bad terms when he died (understatement of the year, anybody?) but, no matter what he says, they're still brothers. Redcloak is still the guy who he played with as a child, who saved him from the massacre of their village, who nursed him back to health from a devastatingly permanent mutilation, who he lived with for at least twenty years... at least. I don't think Right-Eye could stop loving Redcloak even if he tried, and vice-versa. They can be really pissed at each other, but they still love one another.
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The April Squickies Award for Best Crack Pairing Story
Thank you so much to Kaytara for the avatar! It's of Redcloak's and Vaarsuvius's love child.
Right eye still has a daughter out there somewhere. Red Cloak isn't his only family.
And considering that Red Cloak KILLED HIM FROM BEHIND AND ZOMBIFIED HIS CORPSE, I don't think that's the type of thing he'd be willing to forgive and forget over because big brother needs some help.
If he was raised, he'd probably try to kill Red Cloak and run off to find his daughter. Or even just go to the Order of the Stick and help them, as long as he doesn't realize they were working with the Sapphire Guard.
The only person with a reason to raise Right Eye would be his daughter, and where is she going to get that kind of cash?
Some people say that Redcloak is in for some epiphany due to the loss of his own eye.
It might be Redcloak himself who destroys the zombie and raises his brother for one reason or another.
Would Right-Eye accept? Maybe, but I think so, especially if he thinks it could help destroy Xykon. He himself couldn't do it, I'm quite sure he knows that, but if his actions convince Redcloak to turn on Xykon he'd do it.
Yes, Redcloak killed him, then zombiefied him too, so he'll probably not forgive him for that, but I think Righteye is actually levelheaded enough to work together with him for the "greater good" (or evil, or neutral, or whatever)
Would the Dark One let him go / grant Redcloak the spell in the first place if Redcloak starts to doubt his divine plan? Might even be that red cloak starts to fail for Redcloak if the Dark One is no longer convinced that Redcloak wants to see his plan through at all costs.
I always kinda assumed Xykon lost all his big-name Zombies with the destruction of the dungeon of Durokan. Since they clearly did not accompany him and redcloak as they left the place, I just figured the bodies of Righteye, Lirian, and Eugene's Mentor were already destroyed and at rest.
Just realized that family has a talent for losing eyes to paladins, but that has probably already been discussed at length.
I'm going to guess no. He doesn't have much reason to come back except to complete a happy ending, and Elan is the only one guaranteed one of those.
Just because Elan is the only one guaranteed a happy ending does not mean he is the only one who can recieve one. Haley is pretty much assured one too, since I don't see Elan having a happy ending without a happy Haley. The comic could well end happily for Redcloak, if only for the fact that him dying either a karmic death or a death-of-redemption seems so obvious that I doubt Rich could resist subverting such blatant tropes.
Maaaaaaaybe? I think it's more likely he'd want to help his daughter, as a previous poster mentioned.
But, you know, I've never been literally stabbed in the back and zombified by my sister. I think I wouldn't forgive her (especially if she did it in favor of the guy who killed my partner and kids and countless others of my people, all while claiming it's for the GOOD of my people), but I don't know. I'll reserve judgment until I have personal experience
At any rate, it's only been, what, a year since Right-Eye's death? Even if he's going to forgive, I think it's going to take some REAL changes on Redcloak's part (an actual attempt to do better) and more time. Lots, lots more time.
Reintroducing someone who was only even referenced in the prequel books would alienate people who only read the online strip. The Giant promised that you don't need to read those books to understand the main plot remember?
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Spoiler
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and furry, signifying nothing. But enough about your story of your first child's death, you could all use an update on my problems.
To who ever starts another thread about Belkar's death, To the last I grapple with thee... from Hell's heart I stab at thee... For hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.
Dread Cthulu wills that "Belkar-style lip-based assault" shall enter popular parlance! Remember kids, when in doubt, set something on fire.
Reintroducing someone who was only even referenced in the prequel books would alienate people who only read the online strip. The Giant promised that you don't need to read those books to understand the main plot remember?
Oh, but it wouldn't be that hard. We'd have a few relevant flashbacks in the main comic and then he'd be there. It's no different from introducing a minor character like Therkla into the narrative except that some of us already know Right-Eye exists.
Maaaaaaaybe? I think it's more likely he'd want to help his daughter, as a previous poster mentioned.
But, you know, I've never been literally stabbed in the back and zombified by my sister. I think I wouldn't forgive her (especially if she did it in favor of the guy who killed my partner and kids and countless others of my people, all while claiming it's for the GOOD of my people), but I don't know. I'll reserve judgment until I have personal experience
At any rate, it's only been, what, a year since Right-Eye's death? Even if he's going to forgive, I think it's going to take some REAL changes on Redcloak's part (an actual attempt to do better) and more time. Lots, lots more time.
Between one and two years. Somewhere in there.
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Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Giant
Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Giant
No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.
Reintroducing someone who was only even referenced in the prequel books would alienate people who only read the online strip.
Who would that be? Redcloak's brother was mentioned in the online comic.
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The Giant promised that you don't need to read those books to understand the main plot remember?
And that if anything originally introduced in them comes up in the online comic, what it is will be explained there.
He did not promise that nothing introduced in a prequel book will ever be relevant to the online comic; that's pure Telephone Game. If you think Redcloak having a brother will never be important to the online comic, well. You already told me you don't gamble unless you can rig it.
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Spoiler
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan
Reintroducing someone who was only even referenced in the prequel books would alienate people who only read the online strip. The Giant promised that you don't need to read those books to understand the main plot remember?
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Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
"We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia
Who would that be? Redcloak's brother was mentioned in the online comic.
And that if anything originally introduced in them comes up in the online comic, what it is will be explained there.
He did not promise that nothing introduced in a prequel book will ever be relevant to the online comic; that's pure Telephone Game. If you think Redcloak having a brother will never be important to the online comic, well. You already told me you don't gamble unless you can rig it.
Darn, I read that strip before I read SoD and never noticed that. But still who would resurrect him? The only people who know who he was are Team Evil.
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Spoiler
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and furry, signifying nothing. But enough about your story of your first child's death, you could all use an update on my problems.
To who ever starts another thread about Belkar's death, To the last I grapple with thee... from Hell's heart I stab at thee... For hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.
Dread Cthulu wills that "Belkar-style lip-based assault" shall enter popular parlance! Remember kids, when in doubt, set something on fire.
Maaaaaaaybe? I think it's more likely he'd want to help his daughter, as a previous poster mentioned.
Well, sure, I think he'd come back for his daughter if he thought she needed him, but I think your underestimating the power of familial love. If my brother did all that to me, I'd be pretty pissed at him and would be bitter about it for a while, but if I saw that he was in trouble and needed help, I'd be willing to set aside my anger for his sake because, no matter what I do, I'll always love him. I think Right-Eye and Redcloak have a similar relationship.
I mean, seriously, you can't set aside all that they've been through together. No matter how horrible Right-Eye's murder was, they're still bound together by blood if nothing else. And I get the sense that Right-Eye puts most of the blame of this whole thing on Xykon (whether or not it's justified can be debated) and on the Dark One and not as much on Redcloak. I think that if he thought he could make Reddy see reason or if Redcloak was in some sort of trouble that Right-Eye could bail him out of, I think that he would high-tail it back to the mortal planes at the first opportunity. (Under protest.)
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Spoiler
The April Squickies Award for Best Crack Pairing Story
Thank you so much to Kaytara for the avatar! It's of Redcloak's and Vaarsuvius's love child.
Well, then Team Evil would rez him for some purpose that would be, presumably, clear in the narrative. Or his kid (or the people watching her) would. Or one of his friends - he surely has some somewhere, he had this whole LIFE that didn't involve anybody we know - would.
The short answer is Plot. PLOT (and Rich) would resurrect him if it was felt to be necessary. It doesn't strike me as very likely, no, but it's certainly fun to speculate about what-if.
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I think you're underestimating the power of familial love.
I don't think I am at all. Your family and mine must be very different. I might forgive my own sister a number of things (although she's yet to do anything so bad as kill me, so yeah) but neither of my parents could forgive their brothers for the people they are, and I wouldn't expect them to do so. And neither of *my* uncles has killed anybody, much less a family member. In my own family there are two sisters who have largely divided the family in half based on who-speaks-to-whom by squabbling for the past three or four decades. They've kept this up through cancer and miscarriages, aging and widowhood, and they're unlikely to forgive and forget just because one of them dies.
It's nice that your experiences aren't like that, but I've seen enough families to know that not everybody does operate like that. My own nuclear family is pretty close, but we're largely not in touch with the branches on any side either. And we don't know Right-Eye well enough to know if he's going to forgive a petty little thing like his own murder.
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No matter how horrible Right-Eye's murder was, they're still bound together by blood if nothing else.
Blood that Redcloak was willing to spill to, as Right-Eye and Xykon both put it, avoid having to admit he was wrong. Heaven protect us from ever ignoring the arbitrary bonds of blood!
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I think that if he thought he could make Reddy see reason or if Redcloak was in some sort of trouble that Right-Eye could bail him out of, I think that he would high-tail it back to the mortal planes at the first opportunity.
Yeah, I could see that. Especially if his afterlife isn't all happy-happy joy-joy. But I don't think he'd come back just for a lark because, y'know, he "forgives" Redcloak. As I said, I'd expect that he'd expect Redcloak to make some serious changes and accept some hard truths before he forgives him. I mean, I might forgive my sister for my murder if I thought she'd been deluded and misled... maybe... but I'd want to see that she'd taken the steps to start moving off that path before I wasted more time and effort on helping her. Even if I felt sorry, that doesn't mean I want to give up my afterlife to help people who aren't willing to help themselves - yes, even my own family.
Even if Right-Eye was raised, I doubt he'd be very useful. Unless if I remember wrongly, the Ressurection spell still brings you back at the age you died, and Right-Eye was pretty old when he died. The only thing he could do is come up with a plan/talk to people to convince them of help, and there are spells that could do that without going through the rather difficult and expensive process of ressurection. He'll come up and be important, most likely, but I doubt he'll be raised.
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Even if Right-Eye was raised, I doubt he'd be very useful. Unless if I remember wrongly, the Ressurection spell still brings you back at the age you died, and Right-Eye was pretty old when he died. The only thing he could do is come up with a plan/talk to people to convince them of help, and there are spells that could do that without going through the rather difficult and expensive process of ressurection. He'll come up and be important, most likely, but I doubt he'll be raised.
That's a good point. Let's see... he was a little kid when his village was wiped out, and then... was it 35 years went by? And goblins only live to 50 or so, so 50 less 35 is 15, takeaway however old he already was (sixish?) and he's only got a decade or so, max, to live anyway. Assuming my facts and math are even correct, and it's late here!
Hijacking the thread, what about Eugene's master, Fyron? He was zombified too, and was probably a close to epic level wizard at the time of his death. Raise him, raise him!
Sarcasm notwithstanding, at some point, why bother with a resurrection? Sure, Redcloak could also probably resurrect his family members from long ago, but why? That was long ago, it's time to forget the past and move on. He's too smart to try and fix something he knows can't be fixed.
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Completely unrelated topic, has anyone ever noticed before that Vaarsuvius is at the tour of the library on page 21? Every time I reread anything about this webcomic, I notice something completely different. Like since when can Xykon teleport? The party knew of why they were out to defeat Xykon. Why didn't V mention he knew Fyron? Gah! What happened to Yydranna, the sorceress with more potential than the most powerful frickin' person in the world?
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Originally Posted by silversaraph
And then the reverse-reverse happens. And then the universe implodes and creates a gigantic black hole. The end.
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Yes, I really quoted myself and put it in my signature. You can't honestly say you never thought something you said was so awesome you wanted to make it into a quote and put it in your signature, can you?
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Okay, maybe you can.
Why did I buy Teleporking.com? I have no idea. Am I rich yet?
Just because Elan is the only one guaranteed a happy ending does not mean he is the only one who can recieve one. Haley is pretty much assured one too, since I don't see Elan having a happy ending without a happy Haley.
Yes, but as the LG afterlife showed us: Happy doesn't mean alive.
And we don't know Right-Eye well enough to know if he's going to forgive a petty little thing like his own murder.
We're talking about two different things here--love and forgiveness. Forgiveness is what it would take for Right-Eye to accept Redcloak as a brother again. Love is what it would take for him to go back to the mortal plane to help him.
I don't think that Right-Eye is going to forgive what Redcloak has done easily--I think that it'll take admittance and subsequent change in Redcloak, plus a lot of time for that to happen--but I think that he still loves him.
It's like my mother and my uncle. They used to be incredibly close, but because of a falling-out with my grandma and grandpa, my uncle became estranged. He missed his parents' separate funerals, my other uncle's daughter's funeral, and my other uncle's and my mom's children. My mom doesn't forgive him for these things (believe me, she's made that very clear) but she still loves him. If he turned up one day in trouble, my mom would try to help him.
In short, I think that he would be willing to be revived for his brother's sake, even if he still hasn't forgiven him.
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Blood that Redcloak was willing to spill to, as Right-Eye and Xykon both put it, avoid having to admit he was wrong. Heaven protect us from ever ignoring the arbitrary bonds of blood!
Really? That wasn't what I got from the ending in SoD. I thought that Redcloak killed Right-Eye because he couldn't stand to face the fact that all these people who had died because of this Plan--because he was pursuing this Plan--had died for nothing. He couldn't stand the thought that he had sent perhaps thousands of goblins to their deaths for absolutely nothing. And that's the flaw that Xykon exploits--not that he won't admit to being wrong, but that he can't make his murder of his brother meaningless. If he succeeds in the Plan, he can comfort himself with the idea that it was all necessary sacrifices and he did the right thing. If this whole thing with Xykon fails, then Right-Eye's death was indeed meaningless.
So, in a sick and twisted way, Xykon is using Redcloak's love for Right-Eye against him. It's not the fear of being wrong that's holding Redcloak back, it's the fear of doing all these horrible things for nothing.
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Yeah, I could see that. Especially if his afterlife isn't all happy-happy joy-joy. But I don't think he'd come back just for a lark because, y'know, he "forgives" Redcloak. As I said, I'd expect that he'd expect Redcloak to make some serious changes and accept some hard truths before he forgives him.
Of course he'd expect that, and I don't think he'd come over just because he forgives Redcloak--I mean, even if he did, he could just as easily forgive him and wait around until he finally comes to the afterlife to tell him--but I think that he'd come over if he felt he could make Redcloak see sense and help him accept what he has done. That's what brothers do.
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Spoiler
The April Squickies Award for Best Crack Pairing Story
Thank you so much to Kaytara for the avatar! It's of Redcloak's and Vaarsuvius's love child.
Last edited by Water-Smurf : 12-27-2009 at 01:51 PM.
My mom doesn't forgive him for these things (believe me, she's made that very clear) but she still loves him. If he turned up one day in trouble, my mom would try to help him.
I'm not going to continue this discussion, because it's getting personal, but not all siblings love each other. My aforementioned parents had no love lost for my uncles. It's nice that you know people who would help out their siblings because "well, I love him and he's family", but that's not every family.
And Right-Eye was murdered by his brother. I wouldn't blame him or be surprised if, no, he doesn't love his brother anymore and isn't willing to help him. I wouldn't be surprised if he does and is either, but given the situation I'm not sure that *I* would come back if my sister did that to me, and we don't have nearly as much bad blood between us as Redcloak and Right-Eye did by the end.
Your argument hinges on "Well, the bonds of blood and brotherhood and love", and I'm very happy for you that you don't know any different, but please - accept that some families don't have that and that Right-Eye may be one of the people who doesn't just "get over" being murdered simply because it was his brother and he loves him.
So, in a sick and twisted way, Xykon is using Redcloak's love for Right-Eye against him. It's not the fear of being wrong that's holding Redcloak back, it's the fear of doing all these horrible things for nothing.
And how do we get to the point of these things being done for nothing?
If you selected "Redcloak was wrong" you win!
Redcloak has rationalised everything as being done for something because he needs to be right. He needs to be right because if he's wrong he has wasted everything. And as he is still alive and has gates to pursue for the Plan he, in his mind, can't have been wrong. Yet. When the Plan comes to the point where there's one more gate and it's about to be destroyed, Redcloak will have an existential crisis. Not merely because he believes he will no longer have an existence (wrong type of existential crisis) but because he will have been faced with incontrovertible proof that he was wrong. And because he was wrong he will see everything - the death of every goblin, every hobgoblin, his brother, his own life - and he will know that he has wasted it all for nothing.
The main theme out of Start of Darkness is Redcloak's hubris. He lost everything but his brother and clings to the Plan as a way to have something to work for. If he's wrong about the Plan he's done more than just be wrong. He's wasted his life, his brother's life, and the life of every goblin that followed him. Being wrong about the Plan is more than just being wrong about something. Being wrong about the Plan is proof that the Dark One can't even help his people. Being wrong about the Plan wastes the lives of his people. Being wrong about the Plan ruins his chances of anybody ever achieving what he wants - goblin equality - because he will have alienated every last possible source of help he could ever find to achieve that goal in his pursuit of the Plan.
That's what being wrong means to Left-Eye Redcloak.
It's not about everything being a waste. It's about everything being a waste because he was wrong. That's what bothers him about it. That it would happen because he was wrong and not that it would happen at all.
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Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Giant
Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Giant
No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.
Completely unrelated topic, has anyone ever noticed before that Vaarsuvius is at the tour of the library on page 21? Every time I reread anything about this webcomic, I notice something completely different. Like since when can Xykon teleport? The party knew of why they were out to defeat Xykon. Why didn't V mention he knew Fyron? Gah! What happened to Yydranna, the sorceress with more potential than the most powerful frickin' person in the world?
1) He teleports in SoD (long before he became a lich.)
2) We don't know for sure if that's V
3) Ydranna is a wizard, not a sorcerer. While she might be dead, I somehow doubt it.
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