Rules quirk: Too bad that orc was surprised!

[icefractal]

First off, regarding falling. There is really no consistent way to rule it except that falling doesn't require an action, and isn't subject to any normal movement limits. Otherwise, you have a situation like this:
Fighter: Full attacks the dragon, 5' step off an adjacent cliff. Remains floating there.
Wizard: Did you learn the magic of flight?
Fighter: Nah, I just already used up all my actions.


Secondly, I think we need a better example, in order that less time be spent harping about the logicistic of orcs and ceilings.

Therefore, here's why the rule is wonky, in general terms: Let's say you have a party of mostly spellcasters. As such, you can do a lot more with just a standard action than warrior types can. It is then to your advantage to bring along a blindfolded, earmuffed hireling, who will be sure to be surprised by any combat.

Normal:
The Wizard-crew sees a warband coming along the road, and vice versa. Initiative is rolled. In the first round, the Wizards each cast a spell, and the warband charges (melee types) or full-attacks (archers).

With "Oblivious Lad":
The Wizard-crew sees a warband coming along the road, and vice versa ... except "oblivious lad" sees nothing and is surprised when he starts getting shot at. In the surprise round, the Wizards each cast a spell, and the warband moves up (melee types) or single-attacks (archers).

Quite the combat advantage from bringing along a someone you'd think would be a liability, eh?

[Grynning]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Skjaldbakka:
The example I called your attention to is a specific example of a non-surprise encounter, and the only such example I'm aware of. It clearly indicates that you need not be flat-footed at the beginning of actual combat.

Of course you can be flatfooted when you aren't surprised. I see no indication, anywhere, that you can be flatfooted as a result of initiative rolls when not surprised.

This is incorrect, I'm sorry. The portion of the SRD, already quoted many, many, many times in this thread clearly states that at the start of combat, you are flat footed until your first action in the initiative order. I'm not going to bother re-hashing it, but since you gave book pages, here's some for you: 136-137 of the PHB, which is where this whole argument stems from. Read the part at the top of 137 where it has "Flat-footed" in bold. That's pretty rock-solid proof that your argument fails.

[Grynning]

In response to icefractal, note I did not say falling took an action, I said LANDING and staying on your feet in a combat stance did. Jump off of something about 5 feet high, your stairs will work. Notice that when you land, the impact is fairly jarring and you have to spend a couple of seconds regaining your balance. Even with a tumble or balance check, that's a move action as far as I'm concerned.

[Ulzgoroth]

Glory to Icefractal's example!

Originally Posted by Grynning

This is incorrect, I'm sorry. The portion of the SRD, already quoted many, many, many times in this thread clearly states that at the start of combat, you are flat footed until your first action in the initiative order. I'm not going to bother re-hashing it, but since you gave book pages, here's some for you: 136-137 of the PHB, which is where this whole argument stems from. Read the part at the top of 137 where it has "Flat-footed" in bold. That's pretty rock-solid proof that your argument fails.

That is not actually contradictory with my claim, as far as I can see. The key is the definition of "At the start of a battle". If you look at the DMG reference I provided (I'm not aware of any location in the SRD), it states that battle, or rather "an encounter" starts when any member of either side becomes aware of the other. In addition to providing some expansion elements, as I mentioned, to allow preparation before kicking off the surprise round if conditions (and the actions of those aware) allow.

[Grynning]

It does say "At the start of a battle..." right after that, it says "(specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order)." This means that until you act in initiative order, you're flat-footed. Remember, this is about "Rules as Written," not "Rules as you think they should be."

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Grynning

It does say "At the start of a battle..." right after that, it says "(specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order)." This means that until you act in initiative order, you're flat-footed. Remember, this is about "Rules as Written," not "Rules as you think they should be."

I know. I am speaking of rules as written also. Also in core. Read the rules, as written, in the DMG and tell me what I'm missing if you like. Otherwise, my reading reconciles these two with little to no contradiction. Yours appears contrary not only to reason but to the written material in the DMG.

[Grynning]

The section of the DMG that you are desperately clinging to is not actual rules text, it is a set of examples to help those who have read the rules in PHB adjudicate surprise rounds. Also, the third example specifically states the following (after going through the various actions the party and adversaries take to prepare):

"The DM records the passage of one round."

This means that combat has started, they just haven't actually been fighting yet. In this case, all the actions listed would have happened in some form of initiative order. Even if the DM hasn't actually called for an init roll yet, the characters are already acting in a combat round, therefore, no, they are not flat footed when actual "combat" starts. The problem here is that everyone is saying combat doesn't start until someone makes an attack or casts a spell. That's not true. Combat starts as soon as things move into rounds, and the DM having you roll initiative retroactively represents the time that people are acting in that round if they have already been taking actions. The DMG goes on to state that the DM only calls for an init roll when the order of action becomes important; that's fine to do, but you have to realize that if combat rounds have started, and you haven't done anything yet, you are, unquestionably, flat-footed as stated by RAW.

The second example (Both sides aware at the same time) also helps to clarify things a bit more. It states that "All are equally surprised and equally flat footed. Initiative is rolled, reflecting that those characters with better reflexes act quicker in such situations." Note that even though everyone is "surprised", there is no surprise round because no one has an advantage. This means that you have the most basic form of combat as outlined in the PHB: Init rolls, highest goes first (thus being the first person not flat-footed) and goes down the line. Everyone is flat-footed until they act. This would apply in any situation where two sides become aware of one another (regardless of how long they may be aware) but do not actually start combat rounds until hostilities escalate (i.e. my example of getting punched in the face IRL). You can be fully aware of a hostile presence for quite some time before things go into combat rounds, which makes you flat-footed until you take your first combat action. If you do ANYTHING that would start combat (and thus "de-flat-foot" you as many posters have been arguing you can do), that means you are starting combat, and when the DM calls for that init roll, whatever you declared happens on that count.

Final Edit: I know it took me a long time to respond, I had a pressing engagement at the Waffle House. By the way, while I was there we discussed this thread, and two gamers who I have never played with or DM'ed for both backed me up on this. I know that doesn't have a lot of weight for the interweb argument, but it validated me enough to post one last diatribe explaining why I believe my interpretation of the rules is "most correct."

[Ulzgoroth]

So, I don't think I disagree with anything in your post except the attempt to depreciate text expanding and improving pre-existing rules (and no, it isn't just examples...it contains specific rules, and guidelines for the use of the existing rules).

But, um, didn't I say the same thing? Three posts back of your telling me I've got it wrong? When you aren't surprised, as in that example, combat rounds have started without hostilities, and thus when hostilities do start there is no flat-footedness. The only way for combat rounds not to have started before hostilities is if you are surprised by them.

EDIT:
Well, now I disagree plenty...
Initiative is rolled (theoretically, actual dice use may vary) when the opponents become aware of each other. If you are talking about RAW, you cannot ignore the statement of when an encounter begins at the top of p22. There is no meaning to an action starting combat. No rule anywhere differentiates a combat action from a non-combat action or characterizes what actions might begin combat. Combat is started by awareness, not by actions.

No one is likely to be either surprised or flatfooted by an opposing duelist drawing their weapon on the mark, a punch thrown at the culmination of an exchange of insults, or an arrow from the archer who has been covering you for the past minutes.

Of course there was a point at which, assuming you became aware of one another at the same time, an initiative roll meant one of you acted while the other was flatfooted. That window of opportunity is gone a round after mutual discovery, and doesn't get brought back by steel finally coming out. You may, in terms of actual dice, not roll d20+init mod until somebody tries to shoot somebody else, but unless awareness was lacking that initiative already applied well before being rolled.

[Dullyanna]

It's as simple as this: Right after initiative is rolled, the people who rolled lower, and thus get their turns later, are counted as flat-footed until their turn comes, whether there is a surprise round or not. If there is a surprise round, the combatants who aren't surprised (On both sides) get to roll for initiative and get one free action and one standard action. Oh, and dropping from the ceiling is a free action. If combat started with both sides sixty meters apart, and without long range attacks, then everybody would most likely get a turn before they reach eachother and attacks are made, meaning everybody is "prepared" RAW-wise, and thus nobody is flat-footed due to initiative. That quote I pulled up was straight out of the SRD, by the way. And as for the duel: If "Inititiative" has been rolled (I.e. the referee or whatever gves the signal for the fight to begin) and both combatant wait for the other to make a move(In other words, delays their turn) then yes, nobody is flat-footed, because they both have taken an action on their respective turns.

[Ulzgoroth]

Surprise does not imply surprise round. The normal expectation is that combat starts when two parties meet in the dark, and are both surprised. A surprise round normally results only when either some people aren't surprised (and thus get a surprise round on the people who are), or when some people are surprised but others are completely unaware.

There's also no rule about one free action. The definition of free actions is that you can have any number of them, limited only by the DM's whim.

In a duel, you had a chance to act before the signal was given. You didn't take it because doing so would violate the terms of the duel, but there wasn't anything mechanically keeping you from drawing and attacking before that point.

EDIT: It occurs to me that this line of discussion is really a thread hijack. Icefractal gave a nice example of the point that the OP was actually talking about... On the topic of that, then.

Well, they can partial charge, but yep. That's ugly.

[Dullyanna]

@Ulzgoroth:There is one relevant rule involving free actions: You can take them during surprise rounds, along with a standard action. I probably had bad wording with that part.

Officially, combat starts when the order of turns is determined by initiative rolls. Right after initiative is rolled, each person who get their turn hasone turn to capitalize on the fact that those who haven't had a chance to act (due to lower initiative rolls) are flat-footed until their turn starts.

It's Happy Fun Scenario Time!

Scenario A: An orc ranger is stalking a goblin war part. Unfortunately, he's a moron, so a few of the goblins take notice of him. Initiative has now been rolled. Nobody takes offensive action (Including the orc), and soon all of the gobbos are made aware of the orc. By marching onward, they're either delaying their turn (So they can act when something happens), or have readied their bows for when the orc does something stupid (Again) Another possibility is that one of the goblin archers, having rolled high for his initiative, takes his turn to fire at the orc, who isn't flatfooted because he's already acted when it was his turn.

Scenario B: In the case of combat following dialogue, it's really the DM's call when to roll initiative. Logically, he would do it when it's clear to the players (And their characters) that there are hostile intentions on the other side. As far as I know, DM's don't usually roll initiative at the start of every dialogue (Irregardless of whether a fight was going to start or not). So when one side basically declares that they're going to start combat (I.e. the barbarian say:"I rage and punch the bastard"), initiative is rolled to determine who goes first. That doesn't necessarily mean the raging barbarian goes first.

[Grynning]

The above poster makes some good points. Urzgoloth (sorry if I mispelled it) the problem I have with the way you are interpreting the rules is that it basically sets up a scenario where players can always word-trick their way out of being caught flat footed. This is not how the rules are supposed to work, and there is a reason you are flat-footed until you act, as I have said time and time again.

Edit: You are correct that an initiative roll can represent something that happened in the past. I said that in my first post on this thread. However, the confusion here arises from A) when combat starts and B) when you get to "act" thereby removing your flat-footed status.

All of the examples which you give hinge upon people delaying their action in some way or another before fighting starts. I don't know how much clearer I can be, but if that happens it's PART OF A COMBAT ROUND. Initiative order wins. In your duel example, consider this. Two guys with rapiers face one another. They both have weapons drawn, and are obviously mentally prepared to fight. Now, if they both go en guard, they are beginning combat, and then delaying until the signal is given (thus avoiding being flat footed). However, if one guy decides to jump the signal (dishonorable, but still allowable in a duel, after all, it's a fight to the death, the dead guy still loses even if the winner cheats) and attacks while his opponent is still in the process of getting ready, if he wins initiative, he gets the guy flat-footed. This is closer to what happens in "real" combats. Yes, both people are aware. No, there is not a surprise round. But the first person to act still catches the ones who haven't acted flat footed. This is one of the major advantages of going first, ask anyone who plays a rogue or DM's for rogue players and you'll hear the same thing: if the rogue goes before you, he sneak attacks you in the first round even if you can see him and he's right in front of you. It's because of the flat-footed rule, which I still don't understand why you're disputing it. Also, if the rules work the way you say they do, why even have uncanny dodge? It becomes much less valuable if it only functions when you're unaware of your opponent beforehand.

Essentially, you're saying that "awareness" = "combat". Simply not true. Awareness = Encounter. Encounters can be resolved any number of ways, combat is one of them, and it's a separate set of rules. Combat happens during an encounter. So just because an encounter has started, you are not in combat rounds taking combat actions. Until you are, you can't just say your character is ready for combat when it happens.

Edit: Removed a portion of my post here because it was petty and not really applicable to the discussion. I apologize, sleep deprivation makes me mean.

Final Edit: Just in case that last wall of text was confusing (I'm really tired), here is the actual definition of the flat-footed state from the rules:
"Especially vulnerable to attacks at the beginning of combat. Characters are flat-footed until their first turns in the initiative cycle. A flat-footed character loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity."

Fairly black-and-white. Have not acted in initiative count = flat-footed. Notice it does not say "you are flat-footed until you could have maybe at some point in the past done something you could consider part of the combat"
I mean, if I'm a character (without uncanny dodge of course), I could, in theory, randomly attack someone at any time during an encounter (i.e. "Could have taken a combat action" as you say). This doesn't mean I'm not flat-footed when someone does it to me.

[Ulzgoroth]

Grynning:
I have no idea where you get that idea about word tricks. You can't be prepared for a threat you aren't aware of. If you are aware of the threat more than momentarily before it manifests, there is no reason by logic or rules to be flat-footed.

In theory I suppose you could regard every person you ever meet as a threat to your life and therefore never be exposed to a 'social' surprise attack. I don't see how that's a problem...if you want to treat a trip to the grocery store like a SWAT mission, you can. The drawbacks seem obvious, but specifically your behavior ought to be fairly obvious to those around, and more than a little exhausting if you spend much time around people.

You keep hammering out the "it's PART OF A COMBAT ROUND" as if this is something I should be unaware of. I don't know how to be more clear: I thought that was my point. I am not and never have been trying to say that it's impossible to ever get people flat-footed in the opening round by winning initiative. Of course it is, any time there's an encounter. You just have to strike in or before the first round in which your target identifies you as a threat.

Jumping the gun on the duel, there might be a surprise round. If your target was trusting you to abide by the rules, and you were planning all along to get the drop on them (and they didn't pick up on it), I could see getting a surprise round. However, it's entirely a matter of outlook. If they consider you a back-stabbing, knife-throwing assassin they'll be as ready to fight you when they come in the door as when they actually are across the ring from you. To get them flatfooted, you'd have to strike as soon as they set eyes on you.

How do you define the start of combat? Don't say rolling initiative...there has to be something that tells you when to roll initiative. Nor can it be violence, since there's no requirement that anyone attempt to harm anyone else in the first round of combat. Reading the DMG, awareness is the only possible answer I can come up with. What do you use?

Originally Posted by Dullyanna

Officially, combat starts when the order of turns is determined by initiative rolls. Right after initiative is rolled, each person who get their turn hasone turn to capitalize on the fact that those who haven't had a chance to act (due to lower initiative rolls) are flat-footed until their turn starts.

I would say you're inverting cause and effect here (you roll initiative because combat starts), but generally agreed.

I'm happy with your examples too. Though I'd note that in A, when the Orc first came across the war party he might have been subject to a flat-footed attack if one of the goblins spotted him at the same time he spotted them and won initiative. Once he's trailing them and everyone's aware of each other, as you say neither side can achieve flat-footedness regardless of initiative.

Example B seems like simple truth. Instead of using spot and listen to see the combat coming, characters would use Sense Motive and Yes, He Did Insult Your Mother if any subtlety was involved. Deciding to take initiative (non-technically speaking) by hauling off and punching the other guy does have the advantage of pretty well ensuring that if a surprise round occurs you get to act in it, and depending on circumstances might create one, but doesn't help you win initiative.

[Goumindong]

Originally Posted by Skjaldbakka

Regardless of your opinion on the matter, that is not how the game works. If two people are standing next to each other, and one pulls a knife and attacks the other, the other is flatfooted. Behind the scenes, it would look more like this:

I pull a knife and stab Roy!
DM: OK, roll Bluff to see if Roy picks up on your hostile intent.
crud, I got a 3.
17 sense motive, belkar! I see it coming!
DM: Both of you roll initiative
17
3
DM: Belkar, you go first. Drawing a dagger is a move action, so you can make one attack before Roy gets a chance to react. Roy knows you are about to attack, but hasn't reacted quickly enough to stop you, so he is flatfooted.

Roy has not had 6 seconds between when he became aware and when the attack was made. Such this follows the rules perfectly.

[Goumindong]

Originally Posted by Grynning

All of the examples which you give hinge upon people delaying their action in some way or another before fighting starts. I don't know how much clearer I can be, but if that happens it's PART OF A COMBAT ROUND. Initiative order wins. In your duel example, consider this. Two guys with rapiers face one another. They both have weapons drawn, and are obviously mentally prepared to fight. Now, if they both go en guard, they are beginning combat, and then delaying until the signal is given (thus avoiding being flat footed). However, if one guy decides to jump the signal (dishonorable, but still allowable in a duel, after all, it's a fight to the death, the dead guy still loses even if the winner cheats) and attacks while his opponent is still in the process of getting ready, if he wins initiative, he gets the guy flat-footed. This is closer to what happens in "real" combats. Yes, both people are aware. No, there is not a surprise round. But the first person to act still catches the ones who haven't acted flat footed. This is one of the major advantages of going first, ask anyone who plays a rogue or DM's for rogue players and you'll hear the same thing: if the rogue goes before you, he sneak attacks you in the first round even if you can see him and he's right in front of you. It's because of the flat-footed rule, which I still don't understand why you're disputing it. Also, if the rules work the way you say they do, why even have uncanny dodge? It becomes much less valuable if it only functions when you're unaware of your opponent beforehand.

Yea, you are dead wrong here. Init has been rolled, combat actions have been taken, neither combatant is flat footed. Hell you directly contradict yourself when you say that both combat has started and rounds have passed AND THEN say the guy is flat footed. This set of events is by RAW and RAI impossible.

Also, its called uncanny dodge because its uncanny, not because its the normal actions you would expect from being attacked by a guy you are aware of for plenty of time. That is called "Normal dodge"

[Goumindong]

Originally Posted by Grynning

Essentially, you're saying that "awareness" = "combat". Simply not true. Awareness = Encounter. Encounters can be resolved any number of ways, combat is one of them, and it's a separate set of rules. Combat happens during an encounter. So just because an encounter has started, you are not in combat rounds taking combat actions. Until you are, you can't just say your character is ready for combat when it happens.

In which case it is then impossible to gain a surprise round on someone who is aware of your presense regardless of your actions to ensure that. This is false.

E.G.

Rogue walks up to target, smiles and asks where the nearest coffee shop is. He sleight of hand draws a dagger and conceals it. Spot is rolled versus sleight of hand. The target loses.

Rogue attacks! Surprise!

Roll init-
Surprise Round:
Rogue
No One

Regular round:
Init Winner
Init Loser

The guy was standing right in front of his face, but not aware. Surprise round.

Any time you are aware you can delcare yourself ready for combat. You might want to make a bluff, or opposed BAB/sense motive check to determine whether or not the other guy notices and so is able to take action, but its irrelevent.

E.G.

Rogue walks up to target. Target has reason to believe that someone wants to kill him and so takes a full defensive action as the rogue approaches. Target=aware, Rogue=not aware.

just like the rogue was aware before and the target not aware...

Now, lets say the rogue notices and attacks, he wins init, is the other guy flat footed? This is where it gets tricky, because he hasnt had a regular turn, but he has taken an action in the surprise round that necessitates him being ready.

Mabye his surprise round was a hold action and then after the next round where the rogue walked up he takes the full defensive action.

Then by raw the rogue enters combat as a new combatant at the end of the initiative order

In fact, going by THOSE rules where we have one guy prepared for combat and taking defensive actions the rogue always goes last.

but, since the target is not attacking, the rogue when he goes gets a full round. In essense declaring himself to go first. Unfortunatly the guy is not flat footed, he is ready, he has taken action.

[Frosty]

He may be cautious, but he doesn't know that the Rogue is the one who'll attack, unless you're saying that the target specifically takes a defensive action as he sees someone suspicious walk up to him.

Let's have a more modern example. You've got a man walking a crowded street who has been advised that there's a good hcance he'll be the target of an assassination attempt. He looks around nervously, each turn actively making Spot checks to try to see anything unusual. An assassin with a sniper rifle fires from 1000 feet away. Is the target Flat-footed? I think so. He doesn't know where the attack will come from, so he can't use his agility to avoid the attack. He was ready and aware of dangers, but he could not react to them.

Similarly, if an assassin who is dressed like everyone else, who blends in, will probably have an easy time getting the target flat-footed on the first melee attack as well unless the target can somehow identify that target as a threat and specifically take measures to defend against the assassin. I mean, you can't have a defensive stance against EVERYONE on the street. If you're facing the other way to defend against innocent bystander #52, you might be exposed to the Assassin's attacks.

[Justin_Bacon]

The rules for how to handle the beginning of combat, awareness, surprise, initiative order, and flat-footedness are some of the sloppiest and most poorly written rules I've ever seen in an RPG.

In an effort to provide a better baseline for this discussion, I'm going to go through the muddled mess of the DMG and try to pull out all the actual rules for this scenario.

Starting Combat
Combat can start in one of three scenarios:

Scenario 1. Only one side is aware of the other.
Scenario 2. Both sides become aware of the other at the same time.
Scenario 3. Some, but not all, creatures on one or both sides become aware of the other side.

Determining Awareness: Use sight ranges, Spot checks, Listen checks, and so on to determine when combatants become aware of each other.

(This is one of the places where the rules are vague: A multitude of sins can be covered by the phrase "and so on". I would argue that the phrase is specifically there in order to allow for things like Mexican stand-offs, unexpected assaults during social events, and the like. If you walk up to a guy with a big smile on your face and then punch him in the gut, he may be aware of your presence but he is not aware of the combat. I would argue that a Sense Motive check, rather than a Spot check, is the appropriate way to determine awareness in this scenario.)

Preparing for Combat: If one side is unaware of the other, the side that is aware may make preparations before combat begins. The DM may track this time in rounds to determine how much the aware side can accomplish before the unaware combatants become aware of them. If the unaware side becomes aware, combat begins normally. If the unaware side remains unaware, the aware combatants still gain a surprise round (see below).

(So when, exactly, does combat start? Basically, there are four scenarios: (1) If both sides are aware, combat starts immediately without a surprise round. (2) If only some creatures on both sides are aware, combat starts immediately with a surprise round for the aware creatures. (3) If one side is completely unaware, then the aware side can choose when to start combat. And they can either choose to start it with a surprise round or they can all delay their actions and start it with a normal round in which they all get to go first. (4) If one side is completely unaware and only some creatures on the other side are aware, then the aware creatures make the choice of when to start combat (and they can wait to start combat while they make other creatures on their side aware).)

Surprise Round: If only some creatures are aware at the beginning of combat, the aware creatures roll initiative and can take a single standard action during the surprise round. The unaware combatants are considered flat-footed during the surprise round. Once the surprise round is completed, everyone else rolls initiative and combat continues normally.

(Couple of notes here: First, the rule that unaware combatants don't roll initiative until after the surprise round is completed is an unnecessary rule. You can roll initiative for everyone at once and it won't make the slightest difference in how combat plays out. In fact, I roll initiative for the PCs at the end of combat and use those initiative results for the next combat -- this speeds up the beginning of combat, instead of immediately deflating tension by having everyone roll their initiatives.

Similarly, the rule that initiative is rolled at a different time depending on whether the two sides can immediately interact with each other or not -- the only distinction drawn between these scenarios -- is a waste of paper.

Second, the rules on being flat-footed are contradictory. The rules for the flat-footed condition in the DMG reads "a character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed". Following this rule, once a character has taken an action during the surprise round they are no longer flat-footed.

But the PHB says you're flat-footed "before your first regular turn in the initiative order", which means that EVERYONE is flat-footed during the surprise round.

According to the rules for errata, the PHB rule supercedes the DMG rule in this respect. But, of course, the PHB rule doesn't make a lick of sense. It also makes it so that the last person to take action in the surprise round is highly motivated to simply delay so that they can take the first action in the regular round of combat -- a decision which only makes sense at a metagame level.

This also points out another disparity in the rules: If the PCs completely surprise another group, they CAN'T delay their actions into regular combat because they haven't rolled initiative yet. But if one of their opponents is aware of them and can take an action during the surprise round, they can now delay their actions and act first in the regular combat. So, literally, you are MORE capable of taking a full round action before your opponents do if one of your opponents is capable of shouting a warning to their friends.)

Newcomers - Aware: If new combatants join the combat, and they are aware of the combat when they join it, they take their actions before everyone else in the round. The order in which they take their actions is determined by their Dexterity scores.

(This is a bad rule. The reasons for having them act first in the round make sense -- they can, after all, choose the moment when they enter combat if they're aware of it. But the order in which they take those actions should either be determined by opposed initiative checks or, failing that, their initiative bonuses. Bypassing both of those mechanics and going straight to their Dexterity scores doesn't make any sense.)

Newcomers - Unaware: If new combatants join the combat,and they are unaware of the combat when they join it (e.g., opening a door and unexpectedly finding people fighting behind it), they roll initiative checks and take their actions normally during the initiative sequence.

(I would argue that these rules should be scrapped entirely. The proper way to handle this is for ALL new combatants to roll initiative checks normally. (With a "new combatant" being defined as either someone who is aware of the combat or someone who the other combatants are aware of.) New combatants who are unaware, however, cannot take any action during the first round.

This rule neatly models all scenarios: When new combatants and old combatants become aware of each other at the same time, their ability to react to each other depends on their initiative checks. When new combatants are aware of the combat before they join it, they can choose when to join in at a time of their choosing (and will not be flat-footed when they do). And when the existing combatants become aware of the new combatants before the new combatants become aware of them, they have a chance to react to them before the new combatants can take an action against them.)

Simultaneous Action: The DM can attempt to cope with the consequences of simultaneous action in a completely ad hoc fashion if it seems appropriate (e.g., having a trap triggered by a character during the round not take effect until the end of the round).

And that's it. My snide comments aside, there are only about seven paragraphs worth of actual rules on this topic -- and most of them could be eliminated if you simply made some smarter design choices.

I don't know if this helped anybody in anyway, but it certainly helped me.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

[Justin_Bacon]

Originally Posted by Grynning

In response to icefractal, note I did not say falling took an action, I said LANDING and staying on your feet in a combat stance did. Jump off of something about 5 feet high, your stairs will work. Notice that when you land, the impact is fairly jarring and you have to spend a couple of seconds regaining your balance. Even with a tumble or balance check, that's a move action as far as I'm concerned.

By RAW, the Tumble check for reducing falling damage is made as an instant reaction. As such, it does not take any action.

Of course, this does not necessarily say anything about "landing on your feet".

But, by the same token, according to the RAW, falling doesn't result in you becoming prone: You ALWAYS lands on your feet. (Unless you were already prone when you fell.)

Much like the complete lack of rules for handling sleeping (and the lack thereof), this is a rather painful oversight in the rules. There are many ways to solve it:

(1) You can roll the "do they land on their feet?" question into the Tumble check to reduce damage. But Tumble is a trained-only skill. So is it okay for this to be a non-trained use of the skill? And what about the scenario where you intentionally jump down?

(2) If you take damage from a fall, you must make a Reflex save to stay on your feet (DC = damage taken; DC = 15?).

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

[Indon]

Originally Posted by icefractal

First off, regarding falling. There is really no consistent way to rule it except that falling doesn't require an action, and isn't subject to any normal movement limits. Otherwise, you have a situation like this:
Fighter: Full attacks the dragon, 5' step off an adjacent cliff. Remains floating there.
Wizard: Did you learn the magic of flight?
Fighter: Nah, I just already used up all my actions.

I'd say that, based loosely on the rules for jumping, falling movement should be a non-action that subtracts from the amount of movement you can make for that round.

Thus:

-The Fighter that makes a full attack then 5-foot steps off of a cliff falls 60 feet. Presumably, he finished attacking before he fell, and from there started to plummet. Luckily, the round is not _strictly_ 6 seconds, so we could do this.

-The Fighter that moves 60 feet to move off of a cliff still falls 60 feet.

-The Fighter who lands after falling 60 feet, however, can not move that round because he spent most of his round falling 60 feet (and presumably recovering afterwards).

The jump rules are actually kinda strange, come to think of it.

Edit: I'm not even sure I'm getting it right anymore... hmm.

[Grynning]

Ok, at this point both Guom and Ulzgoroth are not making any sense anymore. Ulz, you admit in your last post that the only way your philosophy works is if your character treats every encounter as combat (trip to the grocery store, etc.) but they you go on to say that you're still right and I just have a warped idea of when combat starts?
Then Guom puts up a quote that was originally posted to refute his interpretation of the rules...stunning (and btw, the quote you put up entirely agrees with my argument)
Ok. Let me spell this out as easily as I can. Here is, by RAW, the way this whole Init-flat-footed-surprise crap works:

1. Two groups of characters are in the same general vicinity. This is the start of an encounter.

NOTE: The rules do distinguish between "Encounters" and combat. In fact, the DMG has a section on assigning XP for encounters that don't end in combat, and every recent published adventure I've seen has "roleplaying" encounters. Obviously, you can have an Encounter without combat. Just to make sure this is established, going to the grocery store is NOT a combat encounter (unless you're having a really strange day).

2. Determine awareness. Roll listen, spots, see if spells go off, whatever. Awareness just means: "Do they know each other exists?" at this point. Now, if one group is going to immediately attack the other if they become aware (ex: Hungry zombies become aware of humans) then obviously, combat could begin at this stage, because as soon as one side becomes aware, they will begin taking combat actions.
HOWEVER: Awareness does not equal an initiative roll. It is fairly clear that the section of the DMG that Urz keeps quoting is devoted to combat encounters only (in fact, it is in the "Combat" subsection). The major point of difference between myself and the other 2 posters is that they seem to believe the initiative should always be rolled here, but if the DM doesn't ask for it, you can say "My character is in combat right now!" and avoid being flat footed. This is not how it works, people. If you're the one who starts combat, then you are telling the DM you want to move into rounds and roll init. The DM, however, would be within their rights to tell you, "Dude, combat hasn't started. You're walking up to a group of orphans begging on the street." Or something like that. In that case, combat does not begin. Unless you're "role-playing" as someone who believes they're going to get in fight with everyone they meet, your character is not going to bristle up and get into combat posture as soon as you see some NPC's. Can you imagine having to play out every encounter in 6-second rounds? It would suck. Ok, back to my steps now, sorry.

3. If characters are hostile, the DM determines, based on awareness, whether anyone is surprised. If all are surprised, no surprise round. Proceed to 4. If none are surprised, no surprise round, also, proceed to 4. If some are surprised and some aren't, there is a surprise round.
If there is a surprise round, those who are not surprised roll initiative against one another. High roll goes first. Note that even in a surprise round, you are still flat-footed until you act. So, person who wins init in surprise round is the first person not flat-footed.

4. Regular round begins. Those who did not roll init in the surprise round roll it here. Now everyone has an init roll, and they act in initiative order. At no point does anyone stop being flat-footed until they act, unless they have uncanny dodge. This is RAW, that's all there is to it. No "saying you were in combat before there even was a combat" to get out of being flat-footed. You have no dex bonus, no AoO's, until you get your turn in the combat. I'm sorry if you can't accept this, but I assure you that this is exactly how the rules work.

By the way, in Guom's example, you have a character taking a "full-defensive" action as somewhat walks up to him. If he does that, you've started combat. Also, note that taking a full defensive action means devoting yourself to bobbing, weaving, dodging, etc. You can't do it out of combat, and if you do that on the street, it means you suddenly stop walking and start circling the guy in a defensive posture (probably humming the "Amok Time" music while you do it) and people will most likely stare. Granted, it may save you from the stab, but you'll look like a wacko.
If you want to casually keep walking toward the guy, you're leaving yourself in a vulnerable stance for the sake of subterfuge. Even if you know someone might attack you, you can't just "be ready" for a knife attack....unless you have, I don't know, some kind of uncanny ability to dodge or block things...some kind of uncanny...dodge...

If you feel it's unrealistic for someone to be flat footed against an attack they see coming, here's your solution: house-rule it. Don't say it's RAW, because it's not. I think someone has that sig'ed on here, and they're right.

[ColdBrew]

I fully agree with Guom, as it stands, and I think part of the confusion is a bit of muddled language he keeps using. Basically, if two gunfighters are staring at each other down a dusty street, combat has begun. By RAW initiative should have already been rolled as soon as one sees the other as a threat, which would be at the official start of the duel if they consider each other honorable men. They're taking turns holding their actions for dramatic effect, so nothing particularly "combative" is happening, but enemies are aware of each other so combat it is. Now, as players, we'd save the physical action of rolling initiative for when we actually need to know the result, because it's just more practical that way. That's what Guom meant when he kept saying combat starts, but we don't roll initiative until a few rounds in when interesting things happen, and also when he said we've been doing initiative wrong.

He wasn't saying the RAW was to roll initiative after combat begins. He was saying players do it that way because we don't need to be counting off initiative until people start actively attacking each other or it becomes necessary for practical reasons. The end result is the same whether you roll initiative as soon as enemies become aware of each other as threats or whether you wait until round time starts to matter. By RAW you'd do it the first way; it's just easier to do it the second. As long as you keep in mind that rounds have already passed before players actually toss the initiative dice, there's no conflict.

[Justin_Bacon]

Originally Posted by Indon

I'd say that, based loosely on the rules for jumping, falling movement should be a non-action that subtracts from the amount of movement you can make for that round.

This assumes that the character can move as fast as they would fall (which is probably not a great assumption).

Let's see if I've got the right file laying around here... Here we go. The rules for freefalling from the forthcoming Rule Supplement 2: Flight from Dream Machine Productions:

Originally Posted by Rule Supplement 2: Flight

FREEFALL
A character or object in freefall drops straight down towards the ground. During the first round of a freefall, a character or object immediately drops 150 feet. If a character begins their turn in freefall, they immediately continue their fall. The distance fallen each round increases by 150 feet for each round of freefall to a maximum of 1000 feet per round.

Characters in Freefall: While in a freefall, a character loses their Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and can only attempt a single standard action each round. A combatant attempting to use an item in freefall must make a Dexterity or Strength check (character’s choice, DC 15) to avoid dropping the item. Spellcasting is possible in a freefall, but requires a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell level).

UNCONTROLLED FREEFALL
Any non-flying character falling is in an uncontrolled freefall. A flying character enters an uncontrolled freefall if they stall or are rendered incapacitated. As a standard action, a flying character can attempt to recover from an uncontrolled freefall and resume normal flight by making a Fly check (DC 25). If the check is successful, the flyer stops freefalling and can fly normally in any direction.

Alternatively, a flying character can turn an uncontrolled freefall into a controlled freefall (see below) as a standard action by making a Fly check (DC 15). The flying character can then recover from the controlled freefall normally on their next turn.

CONTROLLED FREEFALL
A flying character can voluntarily enter a freefall as a free action in order to quickly lose altitude by making a Fly check (DC 5). If the check fails, the character enters an uncontrolled freefall instead.

As a move action, a flyer can attempt to recover from a controlled freefall and resume normal flight by making a Fly check (DC 15). If the check is successful, the flyer stops freefalling and can fly normally in any direction.

ACCELERATED FREEFALL
A flying combatant in a controlled freefall can double the distance they fall each round by making a Fly check (DC 15) as a move action. If the check fails, the combatant simply maintains a controlled freefall.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

[Grynning]

ColdBrew - While I tend to agree that it is possible for a combat to begin "before it begins" in some cases, unfortunately, this can lead to some very bad situations when it comes to role-playing. Whose call is it if combat has begun and whether you've already been in rounds or not? It's the DM's. The DM says, ok, things are escalating, time for an initiative roll. Players throw dice. The winner of that roll is "ahead of the game." They move faster than everyone else, their action happens first. From the way the rules are written, if they attack at that point, they catch their opponent flat-footed. That's what happens.
If combat had already begun, you would have to track rounds retroactively - say, ok, at this point I was circling around making threatening motions and calling the guy a varmint, and that was my action in round 1, and that's why I'm not flat-footed...see why I have a problem with this?
The whole debate over "when" the initiative roll happens (for the characters, I mean, not dice on table) is somewhat moot at this point. While I agree that the init. roll is not necessarily taking place simultaneously with the beginning of combat, going by the RULES (not narrative), until you come up in that order, you are flat-footed, unless you have uncanny dodge.

[Dullyanna]

I think Grynning has this covered pretty well by now. But here's a quote from the SRD, just for the hell of it.

Initiative Checks

At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check.

[Chronos]

EDIT: It occurs to me that this line of discussion is really a thread hijack. Icefractal gave a nice example of the point that the OP was actually talking about... On the topic of that, then.

Thank you, Ulzgoroth. The point I'm making just depends on there existing some situation where it's possible for some combatants being surprised, and for full-round actions to be valuable for one side.

That said, if the rest of you guys want to debate just exactly how someone can be surprised, and what all else happens at the start of combat, that's OK, too. Just count me out of that debate, as it's gotten boring for me.

[Grynning]

On the subject of falling, I do agree that the rules are nebulous on this point. In the dropping onto the table situation, without establishing how far the fall is, or without having a balance DC for staying on your feet on a table after you drop onto it, it's hard to say whether you would use an action. It would come down to a pure DM call, if it was mine, I would say it would use your surprise round action.

Chronos, I believe that the surprise rules clearly give the advantage if you surprise any of your foes. As I said in my construction of the combat a few pages back (in the midst of my feud over the FF rules), if any of your foes are surprised when you drop, even if some of them aren't, when you Whirlwind them you still kill the ones who haven't acted in the surprise round, giving you a much better chance.

I disagree with your assessment that if no-one is surprised that the rogue can still kill everyone, but that comes down to whether the table drop is an action (therefore limiting the rogue to one attack on the round he drops) or a non-action (allowing him to WW the same round). As I said, IMO it's an action, therefore he can't drop and WW in the same round, so he has to have the surprise round to pull it off.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Grynning

Ok, at this point both Guom and Ulzgoroth are not making any sense anymore. Ulz, you admit in your last post that the only way your philosophy works is if your character treats every encounter as combat (trip to the grocery store, etc.) but they you go on to say that you're still right and I just have a warped idea of when combat starts?

I didn't say it only worked if you treated every encounter as combat. I said that there was no reason whatsoever for it to be impossible to treat every encounter as combat. These statements are very different.

As for your repeated rant about being able to negate any (presumably social) surprise attack by claiming to be in combat...how? Retroactively declaring your paranoia after being asked to roll initiative? Then the problem is allowing retro-actions. If you declare that you are starting combat as soon as you see someone, of course they have the opportunity to get you flatfooted in the turn in which that declaration goes into effect if their initiative is better.

Originally Posted by Grynning

If you feel it's unrealistic for someone to be flat footed against an attack they see coming, here's your solution: house-rule it. Don't say it's RAW, because it's not. I think someone has that sig'ed on here, and they're right.

This is just insulting. I am not attempting to house-rule (I probably would if the RAW said what you think they do, but I'd concede your correctness on RAW). I am making a single interpretation, of when 'battle' is defined as starting. This is not defined in either of the two book references. Thus you are also interpreting its meaning unless you have a reference that you aren't sharing. Unfortunately you seem unwilling you specify your interpretation, which makes it hard to say anything beyond 'I didn't say that!'.

When does battle start, for you?

Originally Posted by Grynning

If combat had already begun, you would have to track rounds retroactively - say, ok, at this point I was circling around making threatening motions and calling the guy a varmint, and that was my action in round 1, and that's why I'm not flat-footed...see why I have a problem with this?

Nope. Presumably the other guy had an action in that hypothetical round too, which could (if he'd won initiative) have been used to get you flat-footed. Probably you did not get a surprise round in which to start making threatening motions. So the only reason you weren't still subject to flat-footedness from losing initiative is because you are getting away with retroactively changing your action (from 'call the guy a varmint' to 'initiate combat and call the guy a varmint') without allowing the NPC to do the same.

Correctly, the NPC would have had a chance to recognize your initiation of combat and try to beat your initiative and get the drop on you.

Originally Posted by Grynning

The whole debate over "when" the initiative roll happens (for the characters, I mean, not dice on table) is somewhat moot at this point. While I agree that the init. roll is not necessarily taking place simultaneously with the beginning of combat, going by the RULES (not narrative), until you come up in that order, you are flat-footed, unless you have uncanny dodge.

Are you saying that in Example: Both Aware but Cannot Interact Immediately they mistakenly did not note that in the round where the door is kicked in everyone is flat-footed until their action? I thought we were in agreement that no one was flatfooted at that point. Both sides got over flat-footedness in the round when the adventurers hear the orcs and the orc spots them (and both recognize the other side as threats, being orcs and adventurers meeting in a stereotyped dungeon). They didn't bother about initiative order because it didn't yet matter, but that is merely a matter of convenience. They were officially on initiative and acting in initiative order and combat rounds, but skipped the overhead.

[Grynning]

Regarding the last point, I indicated earlier that in that example from the DMG, it specifies that the DM is already tracking combat rounds. So, no, when the door is kicked in, no-one is flat footed, because a round has already passed where everyone took an action (Rogue drinks a potion, Cleric casts a spell, etc.).
Standing around waiting for a fight to start, though, is not an action unless you have already started combat and are delaying. Basically, Duom was trying to say that you can justify not being flat-footed simply by virtue of the fact that you *could* have started combat already. The point is, you didn't. Therefore, when it starts, you are flat footed.

Also, note that the rules say nothing about "hypothetical" rounds. You're either in combat rounds (6 second blocks of time) or you're not (RP time). Now, they can overlap, but my point is that you do not lose the flat-footed condition until you DO something in a tracked combat round. The rules are quite clear on that point. Now, doing something can include delaying or holding an action, but you have to be in the initiative count to do that. You can't just start doing it anytime you want before combat starts, otherwise every (non-surprise) combat would begin with readied actions, which they clearly don't.

[Goumindong]

Originally Posted by Grynning

Regarding the last point, I indicated earlier that in that example from the DMG, it specifies that the DM is already tracking combat rounds. So, no, when the door is kicked in, no-one is flat footed, because a round has already passed where everyone took an action (Rogue drinks a potion, Cleric casts a spell, etc.).
Standing around waiting for a fight to start, though, is not an action unless you have already started combat and are delaying. Basically, Duom was trying to say that you can justify not being flat-footed simply by virtue of the fact that you *could* have started combat already. The point is, you didn't. Therefore, when it starts, you are flat footed.

These are the same thing buddy. "You could have attacked" and "you held your action" are the same thing. Because the "you could have acted" is the specific wording that fulfills the conditional "before you have taken an action in the combat round"

Now, doing something can include delaying or holding an action, but you have to be in the initiative count to do that

NO, Doing that starts the initiative count!