Order of the Stick: November II

[Lazarous]

• Haley wins initiative, but there's no one to sneak attack because both Miko and the horse went already. She backs up 5 feet, draws her bow as a move action and shoots the horse once.

From what i understand of initative, the surprise round doesn't count towards flat-footedness in the first round. Haley should've been able to sneak attack either of the opponents (assuming miko doesn't have uncanny dodge).

Edit:
Relevant phb reference : pg 137 top left, under flatfooted At the start of a battle, before you have a chance to act (specifically before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat footed.

(emphasis mine)

[Kish]

Originally Posted by The Giant

What comic are you people reading? When has there ever been any confusion on the point? Seriously, folks, Belkar is EVIL. Accept it.

Thank you. May I put this in my sig?

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Relevant phb reference : pg 137 top left, under flatfooted At the start of a battle, before you have a chance to act (specifically before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat footed.

(emphasis mine)

I think the Giant read it right. That sounds to me like you're only flat-footed before you've acted at all in a battle. The fact that Miko and Windstriker were the only two who weren't surprised and thus didn't need to roll for initiative against any people but each other doesn't matter--the Surprise Round has initiative and has regular turns. I think the distinction being made when it says "regular turn" is that someone can choose to delay, and will still cease to be flat-footed. And, logically*, why on earth would surprising people not make you un-flatfooted when just acting normally does? If you attack someone by surprise, you're at least as prepared for their reaction as if you don't surprise them. People aren't flat-footed at the beginning of any round but the first; why would a Surprise Round not count for those who act in it?

*Which, of course, in OotS, means "the rule would be something to make fun of if it actually stated that someone who attacks by surprise becomes flat-footed after doing so."

[The Giant]

That's not how it works, Lazarous. Read the phrase immediately before that: "At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act..." A character who acted in the surprise round has by definition already had a chance to act in that battle. The Surprise Round is still a round in the same battle. Therefore, they cannot be flatfooted. Your interpretation relies on making the word "regular" mean something that somehow cancels out the phrase right before it. The initiative order starts in the Surprise Round.

The word "regular" instead refers to the point in the initiative turn when your action WOULD come up, if you didn't delay or ready. So that if you ready an action to shoot the wizard when he casts, you're not flat-footed while you wait. You've already arrived at your "first regular turn in the initiative order", you just chose to alter your initiative number through your actions instead. This is supported by the use of the words "before you have had a chance to act" rather than "before you have acted" because you are not required to act on your initiative turn to become un-flatfooted, you're just required to have had the opportunity to act if you so desired.

[Marller]

Great strip.

I had forgotten that Miko is a noble, of course she would take insult to that more than anything else.
It seems group fell for the old bossmob routine (well, to Miko the group must be some challenge), gloat to the opponent and challenge him to try.

And now everyone got their frustrations worked out in a good fight. ;D

[NullAshton]

Sounds to me like Haley needs to get the Improved Feint feat, which allows you to feint as a move action. Feint, then sneak attack! Especially on Miko, who like most people don't pay any attention to Sense Motive.

[Lazarous]

Originally Posted by The Giant

That's not how it works, Lazarous. Read the phrase immediately before that: "At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act..." A character who acted in the surprise round has by definition already had a chance to act in that battle. The Surprise Round is still a round in the same battle. Therefore, they cannot be flatfooted. Your interpretation relies on making the word "regular" mean something that somehow cancels out the phrase right before it. The initiative order starts in the Surprise Round.

The word "regular" instead refers to the point in the initiative turn when your action WOULD come up, if you didn't delay or ready. So that if you ready an action to shoot the wizard when he casts, you're not flat-footed while you wait. You've already arrived at your "first regular turn in the initiative order", you just chose to alter your initiative number through your actions instead. This is supported by the use of the words "before you have had a chance to act" rather than "before you have acted" because you are not required to act on your initiative turn to become un-flatfooted, you're just required to have had the opportunity to act if you so desired.

This would work if suprise rounds weren't rolled on seperate initiative. The section on surprise rounds specifically states that only those characters aware of the action are rolling for initiative, while any other combatants are flat footed. Since these rules are more specialized, they seem to trump the 'all combatants roll initative at the start of combat' rule for general initative. In that case, you roll initiative for suprrise, do actions, then roll initiative for everyone for normal combat. In that manner, a character who acted from a surprise round can be 'reset' and still face flatfooted penalties at the start of normal combat rounds.

Or at least that is how our group has always interpreted that section, in part to model how counter-surprise is a very effective maneuever if you're able to pull it off.

[The Giant]

Originally Posted by Lazarous

This would work if suprise rounds weren't rolled on seperate initiative. *The section on surprise rounds specifically states that only those characters aware of the action are rolling for initiative, while any other combatants are flat footed. *Since these rules are more specialized, they seem to trump the 'all combatants roll initative at the start of combat' rule for general initative. *In that case, you roll initiative for suprrise, do actions, then roll initiative for everyone for normal combat. *In that manner, a character who acted from a surprise round can be 'reset' and still face flatfooted penalties at the start of normal combat rounds.

Interesting, but not the way the rules work. Under Initiative Checks:

"In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order."

Since the initiative roll in the Surprise Round is STILL called an initiative roll, it follows all rules for initiative rolls, including the rule that EVERY round after the roll is made, the character acts on the same initiative order. So what happens is, it's the Surprise Round, the character rolls a 10 initiative. On the first round of the combat, it is still a "round that follows" the original initiative roll, so characters still act in the same order and he keeps a 10 initiative.

There's no "trumping" of the "all combatants roll initative at the start of combat" rule; it's just that for Surprise Round participants, the combat begins with the Surprise Round. Thus, their initiative is rolled then and maintained for "every round that follows".

[eof]

Originally Posted by Lazarous

This would work if suprise rounds weren't rolled on seperate initiative. The section on surprise rounds specifically states that only those characters aware of the action are rolling for initiative, while any other combatants are flat footed. Since these rules are more specialized, they seem to trump the 'all combatants roll initative at the start of combat' rule for general initative. In that case, you roll initiative for suprrise, do actions, then roll initiative for everyone for normal combat. In that manner, a character who acted from a surprise round can be 'reset' and still face flatfooted penalties at the start of normal combat rounds.

Or at least that is how our group has always interpreted that section, in part to model how counter-surprise is a very effective maneuever if you're able to pull it off.

Read the previous page (136). It specifically says that "In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; ...)." New combatants entering the battle doesn't cause initiative to be rerolled, and that is essentially what happens when surprised characters get their first chance to act; until then, they've been targets, not participants.

[Ramos]

You just answered your own question. If in the surprise round all but those that surprise are flat-footed then the surprisers are not flat footed. Once in a combat you stop being flat-footed you can't become flat-footed again.
Your assertion would be true IF the surprisers rolled initiative again in the first normal round along with the others-but they do not.

[Lazarous]

Originally Posted by The Giant

Interesting, but not the way the rules work. Under Initiative Checks:

"In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order."

Since the initiative roll in the Surprise Round is STILL called an initiative roll, it follows all rules for initiative rolls, including the rule that EVERY round after the roll is made, the character acts on the same initiative order. So what happens is, it's the Surprise Round, the character rolls a 10 initiative. On the first round of the combat, it is still a "round that follows" the original initiative roll, so characters still act in the same order and he keeps a 10 initiative.

There's no "trumping" of the "all combatants roll initative at the start of combat" rule; it's just that for Surprise Round participants, the combat begins with the Surprise Round. Thus, their initiative is rolled then and maintained for "every round that follows".

Hmm. Guess i'll have to go and convince my group we've been wrong about this for a long time :p.

[Gary_Schaper]

Originally Posted by Tamis

Ye Gods, what a comic!
Roy is so right in his rant, and I love the fact that you don't need to understand how haley is speaking to know what she means.

Roy was right up until the point where he said that Miko's behavior meant that the Order didn't need to account for its actions.

[Duraska]

Originally Posted by Kadi

I think it depends on the crime. Some things are punished way too harshly, and some things shouldn't be illegal at all. This is the root of my disagreement with lawfulness...it is only humans who create and enforce the law, therefore it is fallible, therefore why should one show unconditional deference to a fallible thing?

You're definitely right about humans being fallible. However, this planet (and figuratively speaking, the OOTS planet) is entirely made up of humans. If we rule out the ability to make laws just because we're fallible, what are we left with? Anarchy?

Basically if your argument is that you don't follow laws because they were made by man, then the question could be asked, are YOU failing to understand the importance of the law? You say that some things are punished way too harshly, while other things shouldn't be illegal at all. This is entirely YOUR opinion, and the fact that you're human, means you're fallable too. So therefore, isn't it every bit as likely that YOU'RE wrong as well? Might you be wrong in assuming a law is useless, when in fact, the law protects the greater portion of humanity.

The simple fact is that we need to have a consistant set of guidelines that benefit the majority of the populace. There will always be those who feel they are outside of the law, just as there will always be some laws that people will dissagree with. I think Miko understands this. It is my opinion (and likely her's as well) that for society to be strong and flourish, there needs to be a strong government and a set of laws that benefit the MAJORITY of its citizens. Ultimately you can't please everyone, but that doesn't mean it's okay to pick and choose which laws you obey.

I will leave it at that, because I'm worried that we might be getting slightly off-topic. Also, I am beginning to sound like a political science textbook. :) After reading that, it's no wonder I "tested" in as a structural fundamentalist in sociology class. ;D

Originally Posted by Kadi

Also, perhaps now we're just quibbling over words, but I don't like how people use the word "consequences" in this context. When I think of consequences, I think of touching a hot stove. The stove isn't trying to punish you for touching it. When human agents use their free will to inflict their will upon humans like Miko did in 251, I'd call it punishment. To call it consequences, seems to me, like a disingenuous way to dance around the "consequences" of their own actions.

Hmm. I think I see what you're saying. You think it's brash to call for OTHERS to face "consequences" on actions that YOU think are wrong. I used the term "consequences" interchangably with the word "punishment" in my post to mean a consequence to disobeying the law (or what greater-society considers wrong). That's a mouthful, and I hope it makes sense.

I have no real disagreement with what you said (I think). If you prefer the word "punishment" over "consequence" that's fine. The reason I said "consequence" is, because in every lawful good society, those suspected of committing a crime should recieve a fair trial as soon as possible. Unfortunately there is always a chance that said person might be guilty, but get off on a technicallity, but we need the trial because it's unacceptable for innocent people to be fully punished for crimes they never committed. Basically by using "consequence" I meant that there was always a chance the person might get off with no punishement. Total semantics.

So why then didn't Miko offer the OOTS a "fair trial" before she tried to kill them? Well, first there's a chance that Miko's society doesn't have the "fair trial" requirement that ours does. Also, when the police are attempting to arrest a dangerous criminal, they have the right to defend themselves against said criminal with deadly force, so Miko probably felt threatened facing 6 people whom she was told to be extremely dangerous. I believe that Miko would prefer to take the OOTS back to her master alive. It is THERE that they will likely recieve a trial (although they ARE guilty, and blowing up a world gate sounds really, really bad).

Whew! Thanks for the discussion on that. I tend to get overly wordy when describing my love of the lawful alignment.

<-- Yeah, I'm a wierdo :)

[Edit: Fixed a few spelling and grammatical mistakes... there's still a lot more! ...sigh]

[diaglo]

gotta say i don't agree with the surprise round.

Belkar was clearly ready for battle. He said as much. "I'd like to see her try"

I think the pally's horse should be dead.

in games like this.. the next strip should be only Miko and Durkon... the other PCs players having quit the campaign or boycotting it.

[Shatteredtower]

Miko looks almost kind of sad in that last panel. Maybe it's just fatigue.

Not much else to say about it, really.

[Duraska]

I'm completely impressed with how tough Miko is! She (and her horse) really dished out a hearty helping of refried justice. I'm a bit sad that it had to come to that, but come on... you can't say that she isn't an impressive fighter!

Don't make the ladies angry, guys. They'll totally smite you every round! ;D

[Malachi, the Lich King]

I have to say that #251 kind of kills my enjoyment of the end rant of #250 by Roy. I really can't wait until Miko is out of this strip.

[Greebo]

Good grief, whats with the Rules Lawyers??

The Giant is THE GM, and the GM has the power to suspend or revoke rules as required to promote the overall progress of the game plot.

In OotS terms, it means if The Giant says Miko has subdued them, Miko has subdued them. He even went to the trouble to come up with a plausible chain of events to explain how the capture took place, but the bottom line is, Miko subdued them.

Arguing with the GM is bad form. ::)

[MrNexx]

Originally Posted by omikapsi

So, (Haley's) likely got at least a -4 penalty on her escape artist check, and it might be ruled that she'd automatically fail (although I don't think that escape artist is reliant on sight).

Eh... I wouldn't necessarily give a -4 to escape artist. You can do a whole lot by a sense of touch with escape artist, especially if you can take your time.

[diaglo]

Originally Posted by Greebo

Arguing with the GM is bad form. ::)

that's why you wait until after the session.

you lodge your complaints so that you are both on the same page.

[eof]

Kudos to the Giant for creating a non-humorous emotional response to a comic. It rarely happens to me. Great work!

So far, I've been rather undecided about Miko. I've certainly not liked her particularly much, but figured she had some redeeming features. Today's comic (251) firmly placed me in the anti-Miko camp, though: I no longer see her as somewhat abusive, but rather borderline psychotic.

First, I so agree with everything Roy said in panel 3 and 4. And it needed to be said. And you know that when a high-INT LG character (and presumably decent WIS as well) gives you a response like that, it's probably well earned. And look at that reaction!

But far more telling I found the Giant's off-screen description of how the battle might have gone--not the battle itself, but what you can read between the lines. I realize that the desciption is not exactly as it might have happened. The issues there still have merit, though, as it is a valid possibility; otherwise, the Giant would not have described/pictured it in the way that he did.

Miko & Windstriker's surprise round; the OOTSers aren't actually expecting them to attack at this point.

Now if there ever was anything I wouldn't classify as honourable and fitting for a paladin/samurai, it would be attacking them "with their backs turned," so to speak.

And what's with attacking, anyway? Any character with any sense would try to convince and cajole the OOTS to come along all the same. It might not have taken more than "Well, understand that I will try. And if I fail, my Lord will send others. Many more others. Ultimately, you WILL be made to answer for what you did. Will you relish in living as hunted fugatives until then, always having to look behind your back, or rather come along peacefully now, seeing as doing so will be considered to be in your favor?" Then again, after what Roy just told her, I understand that someone borderline psychotic would attack with lethal force right away.

Miko goes nuts on V, critical hitting him with her katana and knocking him to -1 in one shot. She unleashes the rest of her full attack on Elan, knocking him to -8 too.

I particularly like "goes nuts on." And taking out Elan, who never laid a finger on anyone (I think), least of all Miko, is so adorabe that there's no comparison that would do it justice. But Elan did call her mean once.

Durkon decides to stabilize Elan with a CLW rather than risk him getting killed by Miko if he gets back up.

First indication that Miko isn't one to take prisoners, even non-evil ones who have saved dirt farmers from ogres and saved a king from assassins... which the OOTSers seemingly have realized.

Roy realizes that he MIGHT take Miko down if he full attacks, but if he fails, she will likely take him out next and then kill the Order.

Roy is also of the opinion that Miko will kill the helpless OOTSers rather than actually taking them prisoners.

Durkon uses Cure Minor Wounds to get V, Elan, and Haley walking again.

Notice who doesn't get a cure? Belkar. We can only guess at the reason why not, but my money is on Miko not allowing the evil halfling to be cured.

From the "What?! How can Miko do this?" thread:

Miko has the advantage of being the only one willing to die for what she wants in this fight; she might back up to heal, but when it comes down to it, she's not surrendering.

Right. So she's psychotic and a fanatic.

Previously, I would have guessed that Miko had low WIS (social ineptitude, bullying, seemingly inept at thinking for herself, rather incapable of compromising, singlemindedness, prefering violence to reasoning) but now we know

Miko casts CLW on herself and Windstriker

that she has at least WIS 11, so that's no longer an option.

I can live with "fanatic paladin" somehow... but "psychotic fanatic paladin" is too much.

[Kadi]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree about lawfulness. Ultimately, by and large, I do obey the law, because I decide for myself to do so.

But to clarify, re: consequences vs. punishment, this is how I see it:

When some "authority" figure says that you'll face the consequences, I think they really mean "punishment," they just say the former so as to not take responsibility for the fact that they're inflicting their will upon another human, and could possible be wrong about it. So they pretend wrongfully to be like a dispassionate force of nature, like a flood or a hot stove.

Of course, I realize that people may feel differently on this, so I will agree to disagree on this as well.

[Kadi]

Originally Posted by diaglo

that's why you wait until after the session.

you lodge your complaints so that you are both on the same page.

I've never agreed with this.

To me this seems like it's saying "Let the GM screw you over until after the session, in either case it has to be HIS time and not yours."

Because right is right, and those who have done wrong must be made to see it.

But then I put the emphasis more on "game" rather than "master." You know what I mean?

I agree that there needs to be some structure to a game, but too many people complain about bad players, and not enough complain about bad dms. May sound trite, but with great power comes great responsibility.

[Kish]

Originally Posted by Malachi, the Lich King

I have to say that #251 kind of kills my enjoyment of the end rant of #250 by Roy. I really can't wait until Miko is out of this strip.

*laughs*

See, that's the beauty of it. The people who laughed at the end of #250 wince at the end of #251, and the people who winced at the end of #250 laugh at the end of #251.

[Redeagle]

People keep saying Miko is just unused to the real world, sheltered and such (Well, maybe). But, consider this. Miko is raised in a monostery, is a Noble in a very caste ridden socity (while its not Japan, it is useing Japaneese social system). AAnd as for her being unexperencied I dont see it, I have always belived she was higher level, and more experenced than people were giving her credit for. Consider this, with the very fabric of exsistence at stake, does Lord Shojo send out a newbi or the Champion of the Saphire Guard?

Miko is at least 15th lv (2 monk + 13 or more Paladin) and more than likely VERY well geared. She probally has some very nice magic Weapons and Armor, plus many usefull items (nothing in Paladin code says you give up stuff you will use, just that extra stuff/money gets donated).

As a High Lv Charecter/Noble/High Ranking member of the Guard she would have access to the very best equiptment her kingdom could provide.

[Eutheos]

Just a thank you to Giant for providing so many answers to questions that have bugged me since A LONG time ago. I joined the strip somewhere when it was in its 40s, and I think this merits a thank you finally :)

[Sylian]

Miko has atleast 11 Wisdom because she can cast Cure Light Wounds.

V have a hard time making a DC 20 concentration.
Roy have Power Attack.
Belkar is evil.
Miko have at least a decent will save, or so V think.

What more did we learn from todays comic and the exiting battle behind?

I would prefer seeing the battle but this works too, since it would take alot of time making it.

When I thought out the battle in my head I thought them as strip figures.

[Marller]

Originally Posted by eof

First, I so agree with everything Roy said in panel 3 and 4. And it needed to be said. And you know that when a high-INT LG character (and presumably decent WIS as well) gives you a response like that, it's probably well earned. And look at that reaction!

[...much text...]

Now if there ever was anything I wouldn't classify as honourable and fitting for a paladin/samurai, it would be attacking them "with their backs turned," so to speak.

Their back's are not turned. She immediately jumped them and they didn't expect that.

Originally Posted by eof

I particularly like "goes nuts on." And taking out Elan, who never laid a finger on anyone (I think), least of all Miko, is so adorabe that there's no comparison that would do it justice. But Elan did call her mean once.

First indication that Miko isn't one to take prisoners, even non-evil ones who have saved dirt farmers from ogres and saved a king from assassins... which the OOTSers seemingly have realized.

Roy is also of the opinion that Miko will kill the helpless OOTSers rather than actually taking them prisoners.

I don't think, she would dishonor herself by not acknowledging their decision while they are unconscious.
Her class is paladin but she is a samurai in her culture.
For everyone who doesn't understand why she does this, read the book Shogun by James Clavell. I'm aware that Lord Shojos realm is not Japan but the book can give you an impression what it might look like.
The OotS and Miko had a major culture clash and neither side fared very well.

But i found both comics (#250, #251) to be funny.

[Rizzo]

Originally Posted by Malachi, the Lich King

I have to say that #251 kind of kills my enjoyment of the end rant of #250 by Roy. *I really can't wait until Miko is out of this strip. *

Roger that!

[Wrecan]

Why do people think she attacked them dishonorably? Roy told her they were not going with her any more unless they were in chains. They assumed that, without the rain, they could take her and that she knew it, so she wouldn't do anything.

They were unexpectedly (to them) wrong.

It's not her fault they basicalyl challenged her to drag them off. Nor is it her fault she has Quick Draw.

[Rizzo]

Originally Posted by Malachi, the Lich King

I have to say that #251 kind of kills my enjoyment of the end rant of #250 by Roy. *I really can't wait until Miko is out of this strip. *