[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[Shades of Gray]

I have a note regarding Firebendering proficiencies.

Why are they only proficient with light armour? All of the firebending soldiers seen in the episodes seem to be wearing breastplate. Do all of the soldiers use feat to wear it perfectly? I think they should have medium armour proficiency.

[Guyr Adamantine]

I have a note regarding Firebendering proficiencies.

Why are they only proficient with light armour? All of the firebending soldiers seen in the episodes seem to be wearing breastplate. Do all of the soldiers use feat to wear it perfectly? I think they should have medium armour proficiency.

We thought that since the basic bending arts aren't armor focused, even Firebenders do not have the proficiency. We assumed they were multiclassed fighters or such.

[Rayzin]

How come i cant download the PFD for the Avatar D20? http://avatar.d20.googlepages.com/

[Mephibosheth]

The PDF hasn't been updated in a while, and I think the link is broken or has changed. Lord Tataraus was in charge of the PDF, and I don't think he's updated it in a while.

[Rayzin]

k thanks


Damned 10 character thingy

[Lord Tataraus]

Originally Posted by Mephibosheth

The PDF hasn't been updated in a while, and I think the link is broken or has changed. Lord Tataraus was in charge of the PDF, and I don't think he's updated it in a while.

Yeah sorry I'll try to get the pdf updated in a week or so. I've been caught up in a few other projects and school. I was kind of waiting for most of the discussions to be finalized and it looks like that seems to be the case right now. I'll post when I get the pdf up again.

As for the question of armor proficiencies, I would argue that the firebending soldiers are wearing oriental style armor, such as Ashigaru Armor which is light.

[Eighth_Seraph]

The main reasons that I would say that benders shouldn't be proficient with armor heavier than light (and that only because I've overridden in a vote) are the main character from Avatar. Aang doesn't wear any armor, but we've already got that covered in the airbender. Katara doesn't ever wear armor, even when it's ready available in The Day of Black Sun, and neither does Toph who, as an earthbender, would be proficient with medium armor under our rules. The Boulder and the Hippo don't wear armor in that episode either when, again, it was readily available. The only bender who we can generally agree hasn't multiclassed AND has clearly worn armor is Azula, and we've covered that as light armor with firebenders.

Basically what I'm saying is that the bender classes, aside from the firebender, shouldn't grant proficiency with any kind of armor, though a one-level dip into fighter or ranger would grant both a bonus feat and weapon and armor proficiencies. I'd say that's the easiest way to represent the armor used by the armored benders we've seen so far.

[Sir Shadow]

I agree with Eighth.

Look at it this way. Bending is derived from martial arts. Martial artists do not normally wear ANY armor because it gets in the way, besides maybe leather (light armor!) at times. Benders should only be able to wear up to light armor on their own. Any greater is just a stretch and all armor should give penalties to their bending scores according to the armor class penalty.

think about it--and I'll admit this point is not really canon but for balance's sake--in normal DnD armor gives penalties to wizards and their little somatic ingredients which are normally hand gestures. Think about how much armor would get in the way when your somatic component involves your WHOLE body.

So why would benders be proficient with armor when it really isn't conductive to the whole martial arts bending method? Think about all the bending MASTERS there are. Almost all of them don't wear armor, just plain robes. The novices also wear robes, you don't see any trainees wearing armor. We have to assume benders spend almost all their time devoted to learning the martial art that drives their bending (like Monks learning martial arts who also have no armor proficiencies) and say that they don't have/take time to learn to fight inside armor until later when they multiclass.

And most of the benders we do see in armor are from military careers, meaning they would probably take at least one or two levels in fighter or ranger where they'd get the proficiency.

[Shades of Gray]

Maybe, or maybe armor is useless.

[Sir Shadow]

... damnit... I can't argue with that... at all...

[FlyMolo]

Originally Posted by Sir Shadow

... damnit... I can't argue with that... at all...

Nope. Tv Tropes wins.

Just make all armor apply double or triple ACP. No bender would ever wear ANY. It's still possible, but just impractical.

[Eighth_Seraph]

...Um. That still leaves the problem of armor proficiencies. Do we agree on removing them, except for firebenders' light armor?

[Sir Shadow]

Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph

Do we agree on removing them, except for firebenders' light armor?

I'd have to say I agree.

[jagadaishio]

Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph

...Um. That still leaves the problem of armor proficiencies. Do we agree on removing them, except for firebenders' light armor?

I disagree. Because we use the defense bonus system for these classes, the armor with which they are proficient determines their AC rather than the actual armor that they're wearing. Removing basic proficiency could seriously cripple them in terms of AC, even if they don't wear what they're proficient in, which I find likely.

If anything, I would try to hammer home the concept that, because they require full-body somatic components, arcane spell failure applies fully to them along with the armor check penalty to their bending skill. In doing this, you would guarantee that most benders would be unwilling to wear armor and that they would not be statistically crippled despite this.

For those few benders that still want to wear armour, such as the fire nation military benders, you introduce the Armored Mage feats, changing the name to Armored Bender. This would allow for them to ignore the percent failure for different levels of armour with which they're proficient without being overpowered, as it would require them to burn a feat (something benders need far more than most of the casters for which it was designed.)

Just to reiterate, I strongly suggest that we don't remove proficiency, and suggest with similar fervor that we instead make the benders not want to use the armor which they are proficient in.

[Shades of Gray]

Hmmm... Would this be good? I worded it awkwardly, and I wasn't sure bout the pre-reqs. Although we haven't seen a character in heavy armor bending, I assume if one focuses there life (5 feats ), on it then they would be able to. Or maybe it would be an epic feat. I may think it's too powerful.

Armored Bender
Prerequisites: Medium Armor Proficiency, able to use bending seeds.
Effects: Armored bender allows you to use complex bending motions in medium armor, reducing the armor penalty to bending by half. Heavy armor is affected normally.
Normal: While wearing armor you take a penalty to uses of the bending skill equal to 2xACP.

Improved Armored Bender
Prerequisites: Armored Bender, able to use at least 4 bending seeds.
Effects: Improved Armored Bender allows you to use complex bending motions in any armor, reducing the penalty of heavy armor by half, and removing the medium armor penalty completely.
Normal: While wearing armor you take a penalty to uses of the bending skill equal to 2xACP.

Superior Armored Bender
Prerequisites: Improved Armored Bender, Heavy Armor Proficiency, able to use at least 8 bending seeds.
Effects: Superior Armored Bender allows you to use complex bending motions in any armor, removing the heavy armor penalty to the bending skill completely.
Normal: While wearing armor you take a penalty to uses of the bending skill equal to 2xACP.

[Sir Shadow]

@ Shades of Gray: great idea! and the wording isn't that bad.

@ jagadaishio:

but that's just it. Benders are the equivalent of mages in DnD terms, they're not supposed to have high armor bonuses from the get-go. That's why they get Deflect Attack!

We only see "higher level" benders using armor, so we assume they took levels in fighter as they went along. It simply makes no sense for normal benders (who are in effect monks that use their style to bend elements) to have a high AC or medium/heavy armor proficiencies right off the bat.

The only reason I'm fine with firebenders getting the light armor proficiency is b/c they are a highly offensive class and don't have many defensive or versatile seeds.

So if a bender wants armor:
1. take a fighter or a ranger level to get all the procifiencies, and use the fighter bonus feat to get the first Armored Bender.
2. waste a few bonus feats to get the proficiencies and armored bender w/o multiclassing

On DR and AC:
Ok, so armor isn't that great in the avatar setting for boosting your AC, but you forget one vital thing. Damage Resistance. Imagine a bender in Masterwork Full Plate. A normal melee would have to go through (1)his bending range, (2)his AC (which would be higher b/c, as you say, Class Defense Bonus is effected by what they're likely to wear), and then (3)his ungodly DR. That would just be too good.

I believe that benders should have the class defense bonus of monks b/c, in effect, that's what they are. They aren't likely to wear medium/heavy armor b/c of how it would get in the way of their bending, although they may later learn to use it. It simply makes no sense for them to get the proficiency from the beginning. And, I grudgingly say, benders are in effect the wizards of this setting and giving them a high AC in addition to their skills is just overkill (except as in the case of the firebender as I stated above), but the fact that wizards and monks have the same class defense bonus is purely coincidental.

[Pirate_King]

The problem with comparing benders to spellcasters is that bending is a Skill, and the padded and leather armor have no armor check penalties. (It could also be argued that Azula's armor is leather, thus defeating the precedent for giving firebenders proficiency)

I've also mentioned before the oddity of airbenders having the highest defense bonus when they should really have the lowest. They get that dodge bonus anyway, so they really don't need it.

[Sir Shadow]

I think air/waterbenders should have the monk's class bonus, and earth/fire have one slightly higher. earth b/c of how tough they seem to be, and fire b/c of the light armor.

Originally Posted by Lord Tataraus

I would argue that the firebending soldiers are wearing oriental style armor, such as Ashigaru Armor which is light.

'Nuff said. I'm fairly certain that Azula has blocked attacks with her armor, and leather doesn't really turn blades and it doesn't look like chainmail. I'm pretty certain that most would agree she hasn't multiclass, she seems like pure firebender with possibly some form of bender prestige class.

plus, with light armor proficiency, it allows the use of chainmail, studded leather, and other source or homebrew armor.

I find no problem comparing bending to spellcasting. You just substitute spell failure with armor check penalty (possibly doubled if it is decided to do that).

[Pirate_King]

when do we see azula's armor do anything?

[ErrantX]

This is an issue we tackled before but apparently it was forgotten. This is of course, from my memory, so take it as you will.

Earth, Water, and Firebenders have proficiency with light armor. While there isn't always a precedent for it, there isn't anything that outright discourages this either. Firebenders do tend to make more use of armor, but then again, they're the ones on a conquering war path and masked helms and armor make you scarier. Firebender soldier mooks are probably multiclassed fighters or warriors.

I'm also pretty sure we had talked on ACP doubling and being applied to bending rolls, due to armor hampering one's ability to move. To that end, we came up with Armored Bender feats as well, but those are probably lost back in the quagmire of version 2.0's 1st bending thread. I think they were something like this:

Armored Bender (General)
Prerequisites: Light armor proficiency, ability to produce a bending blast.
Benefit: The bender may ignore armor check penalties to bending attempts while wearing light armor.
Normal: The bender suffers twice the armor check penalty of his armor to bending skill checks when wearing armor of any kind.

And so on with Improved (for medium armor) and Greater (for heavy armor). If I recall, the first and second ones were more or less approved on, but the jury was still out on Greater Armored Bender.

At the end of the day, I think light armor only, and keep their weapon proficiencies the way they are.

-X

[Sir Shadow]

thank you X

[Shades of Gray]

Maybe we should make a bending NPC class. People who focus more on everyday life than war. Kinda like what an adept is to a wizard. Just a suggestion.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Hm. I think I'm okay with a 3 or 4 feat Armored Bender tree, but I am not alright with ever removing the armor check penalty to anything other than light armor. Let's organize this a bit more before we go on.

Airbender - I think we can all agree not to give them any kind of armor proficiency, and the weapon proficiencies should probably be kept at all simple weapons plus war fans.

Waterbender - I would still say that they should have no armor proficiencies at all, since even the Souther Water Tribe's contingent of battle-oriented waterbenders went unarmored into battle. I really do not think that the Waterbender class should grant any proficiency with armors, though the ability to wear them should be available, in the form of multiclassing and feats, as preferred.

Earthbenders - This one's a little trickier, I must say. On one hand, we've seen earthbenders wielding some serious weapons, even the battlefield earthbenders avoided the protection that could probably have saved them. On the other hand, other earthbending soldiers appear to be wearing either light or medium armor, and then there's Toph, who I could never imagine wearing armor. Again, I would remove all armor proficiencies here, but make it simple and possible to learn how to use armor. A one-level dip or a single feat seems simple enough for me.

Firebenders - This one's also a bit difficult. Nearly every firebender we've seen, aside from the Firelords, has worn some kind of armor, specifically one that's on the border between light and medium. All of these firebenders, of course, are in the military sector of a conquest-driven empire, and the Sun Warriors were conspicuously bereft of any armor whatsoever. Or very much clothing, for that matter. I, again, do not think that the firebending class should grant armor proficiencies, but am willing to concede this one point.

Originally Posted by Shades of Gray

Maybe we should make a bending NPC class. People who focus more on everyday life than war. Kinda like what an adept is to a wizard. Just a suggestion.

That's a possibility, but I don't think it's necessary. The bender classes we've made are VERY dip-friendly, since the first two levels each grant a seed, and the Bending skills can be invested into as a class level from that point on. That's why I'm arguing that weapon and armor proficiencies should not be granted by the bender classes, because a solid half of the Avatar world may well have a level of a Bending class, alongside Commoner levels, and I don't think that armor proficiencies go hand-in-hand with that.

[FlyMolo]

Benders dip amazingly well, actually. One level for ice shards, another for healing waters, then go fighter, barbarian, those awesome monks, or whatever. Fighters who craft their own weapons, then beat you with them? Armor seed? Hello awesome!

Skill based casting, I'm afraid. If I might recommend something radical, most firebenders wearing armor might be fighters with one or two level firebender dips with fighter levels. After all, the most complex bending they do (the mooks) is basically shoot fire at people. That's it.

[Sir Shadow]

well shooting fire at people is basically all a firebender's good for.

anyways... maybe give the airbenders some exotic weapons? not all of them, just ones that would seem to fit.

I think earthbenders would have a bent toward axes and hammers...

and give waterbenders a proficiency with boomerangs or something?

[jagadaishio]

Originally Posted by Sir Shadow

I believe that benders should have the class defense bonus of monks b/c, in effect, that's what they are. They aren't likely to wear medium/heavy armor b/c of how it would get in the way of their bending, although they may later learn to use it. It simply makes no sense for them to get the proficiency from the beginning. And, I grudgingly say, benders are in effect the wizards of this setting and giving them a high AC in addition to their skills is just overkill (except as in the case of the firebender as I stated above), but the fact that wizards and monks have the same class defense bonus is purely coincidental.

The problem is that monks get their wisdom bonus added to AC. If they did, that would make sense in terms of balance. As it is now, they really need the bump to defense bonus provided by being proficient in at least SOME armor. Because remember, deflect attack is only effective against ranged attacks. And they have less HP than a monk to soak up some of the damage. If they don't either have proficiency in armor for a defense bonus bump or the ability to add their wisdom to AC, they will be easy to hit and easy to squish, a role which they did not take in the show and which they do not have the same raw force of a caster to justify.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Originally Posted by jagadaishio

If they don't either have proficiency in armor for a defense bonus bump or the ability to add their wisdom to AC, they will be easy to hit and easy to squish, a role which they did not take in the show and which they do not have the same raw force of a caster to justify.

And that's an excellent overview of our dilemma. Keeping in mind our primary objective to keep the system as true to the show as possible, there are a few viable solutions:

1. A completely arbitrary boost to Class Defense Bonus
2. Give all benders Wisdom to AC and give airbenders the additional Dodge bonus
3. Give AC bonuses that scale by bender level whenever a bender has a suitable amount of her element within reach

I left out "AC bonus scaling by ranks in Bending skill" because that would make a one-level dip far too appealing.

Thoughts?

[Darkbane]

I support an arbitrary boost to the Class Defense of benders. As I recall, that's what happened for V. 1.0 benders, and it seemed to work well.

[jagadaishio]

I support the addition of the Wisdom bonus to AC. It would provide a functional AC and support the current monk/martial artist feel which the bender classes are designed for.

[Pirate_King]

add my vote to the wisdom to AC proposition. fits the martial arts background for the bending system, and it illustrates thedefensive aspect of any martial art