[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[Lord Tataraus]

I'll give a thumbs up to the Wis to Fort saves for Earthbending Study (Fire)

[ErrantX]

@ Dolphin Safe & Ceiling009:

We're debating adding Wisdom to Fort saves, not Dex or doubled Con. We've consistently been adding Wisdom mods to all sorts of things, no reason to change now :D

-X

[Ceiling009]

I'm perfectly okay with adding wisdom as a bonus. It's more consistent, but I always like a bit of MAD with classes so that you can't just pump two stats and be done with it... I'm thumbs upping adding the wisdom as a bonus.

[Dolphin Safe]

Oh . I guess that makes some kind of sense.

[katarl]

Looking forward to the earthbenders completion.

[Ceiling009]

What would people think of a non-canon thread? For possible prestige Classes, that aren't canon, or have not been developed very well in the show? I know it's not very much, but a few things could go in there?

[ErrantX]

I'd so go for it if you want to moderate it. I'm sure Meph would link it in the hub thread and then it can be the place where people can feel free to mix and match stuff. Maybe make yourself up an Avatar PrC, not unlike the Master of Nine PrC from the Tome of Battle. Sky's the limit. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who'd be able to contribute to such a project. I say go for it Ceiling009.

-X

[Mephibosheth]

Ask, and you shall receive!

[Ceiling009]

Woot, thanks.

[Dolphin Safe]

Then, if the Bending Study Feat Controversy is settled, I think it's time to address the issue of: COMMUNAL BENDING!

It happens a lot in the show and is apparently able to accomplish some amazing things. The problem I see is it being overpowered and basically having a four person team that can accomplish everything the Avatar could, and more.

Anybody got anything?

[ErrantX]

As far as Communal Bending goes, I'd rule this:

For every participant in the bending after the first, each makes an aid another action (using whatever bending skill relevant to the element they're attempting to aid in). You add your Wisdom modifier (or +2, whichever is best) to the bending attempt. The primary bender in this (i.e. the one who's making the skill check) can be aided by no more benders in the attempt than his Wisdom score's modifier. This allows some incredible bending to occur, but also stops the entire Northern Water Tribe from making the crazy giant water-fish-man-monster that Aang made again.

-X

[Dolphin Safe]

... I like it!

Although, for the sake of MAD, maybe we could somehow throw charisma into the mix. Kind of like a Leadership[bending] kind of thing? Maybe?

[FlyMolo]

Originally Posted by ErrantX

As far as Communal Bending goes, I'd rule this:

For every participant in the bending after the first, each makes an aid another action (using whatever bending skill relevant to the element they're attempting to aid in). You add your Wisdom modifier (or +2, whichever is best) to the bending attempt. The primary bender in this (i.e. the one who's making the skill check) can be aided by no more benders in the attempt than his Wisdom score's modifier. This allows some incredible bending to occur, but also stops the entire Northern Water Tribe from making the crazy giant water-fish-man-monster that Aang made again.

-X

I actually don't really like this. (understandable, I wrote the first set of rules...) but my beef is that it's hard to get spectacular results with this. Assume your benders have 18 wis. Maybe unlikely, but for the sake of argument. You get a maximum of +16 to your check, but while this is pretty substantial, it's not nearly as good as you can get with 5 benders working separately.

That's as good as you can get without magic items or lots of levels. Magic items AND lots of levels are scarce in the avatar universe. Most people are mooks, and magic items are nonexistent.

It's a good concept, but the math doesn't quite work out. The trouble is making rules that allow a lot of benders to do what one bender could do, but much bigger, without allowing a lot of benders to do what one bender couldn't even conceive of. We want more size, not more complexity.

Perhaps benders can only contribute if they make the DC of the form? I included more lowly benders being able to contribute a little bit if they were close, if only by basically holding the water up where it's easily accessible. Like an assistant holding a wrench for the mechanic. He's not doing anything really helpful, but he's making the mechanic's life easier.

The giant water fish man monster Aang made is a golem ,which requires a hefty check right there. The N. Water Tribe, canon, are allowed to make rather large amounts of water go away pretty fast, if they work together.

[Dolphin Safe]

Do you think you could post the original rules here? Just to make things easier for those who missed out on the first threads.

[Ceiling009]

You could work on it something like HD + wis mod. You would want a high level bender to be the lead focus of the massive form you're trying to do. I mean, let's say you take Bloodbending, you have a level 5 bender, with like a lot of level 1 benders trying to help, no can actually pull that DC of 50, except for a level 20 bender... (During a full moon, they only have to take a 10 actually with a 20 Wis)... maybe you can take the total DC of the form being done, divide by the possible number of bender present, then that would be the make or break DC for helping, while the main focus bender would have to make the bulk of the check?

[Pirate_King]

Maybe we're coming from the wrong direction. In the show, communal bending does some cool stuff, but to make a universal aid other kind of thing wouldn't really fit, since there are some bending techniques that wouldn't really work with more than one bender. Perhaps we need to go through our seeds and figure out what actually could be done with multiple benders, and maybe come up with some things that could only be done with two or more, like the water benders that crushed those fire nation ships, or opening the wall at ba sing se

[Darkbane]

From what I remember (which probably isn't that accurate), communal bending just seems to increase the scale of the simple Manipulation bending: several benders opening Ba Sing Se's wall (Move a Rock) or lifting a Fire nation ship on a pillar of ice (Freeze/Melt and Manipulate).

[Pirate_King]

It's also been done with tunneling, I think, and Aang and Katara both used pressure to cut the inner struts inside the drill... in "The Drill."
It's also been stated before that various manipulation seeds were prestidigitation equivalents, hence the check-free DC. Still not quite sure if we've worked out the DC to use the manipulation seeds on larger masses of whatever element.

[Guyr Adamantine]

I haven't been able to post in a while and what do I see? Firebenders do not need three things you wrote;

1. Endure Elements: Read Fire in the Stomach, it is pretty much what it should be.
2. Resistance to Cold: Read #1, or prepare an action to use Fire Burst and reduce damage (By inspiring oneself with the Wall of Fire description.
3. This about Fire/Waterbenders: Children of the Sun/Moon should be in a sidebar, as side-rule. It is not significant enough to be a class feature.

Seriously, it's just not right, but it is my petty opinion.

EDIT: Oh, and check/rate my Azula-ish prestige class on the Non-Canon forum!

[Yuki Akuma]

Originally Posted by Guyr Adamantine

This about Fire/Waterbenders: Children of the Sun/Moon should be in a sidebar, as side-rule. It is not significant enough to be a class feature.

Not being able to bend at all while there's an eclipse doesn't seem significant to you?

[Lord Tataraus]

Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma

Not being able to bend at all while there's an eclipse doesn't seem significant to you?

Considering that that is a setting-specific feature, I would prefer that the Water/Fire bending relationship to the time of day, etc. be moved into "Setting Rules" or some such, not integrated into the class. That's like saying wizards that because the wizards in Dragonlance get a CL bonus when their Moon is full, it should be put in as a class feature in the Players Handbook. Sure, a number of groups play in the Dragonlance world so that feature helps them out since they don't have to look at the setting rules, but everyone else has to remove that feature and then the players what something to replace it to "keep the balance". I don't want that mess.

As for the cold resistance and endure elements...I think I'd prefer the original fire resistance, but I'm not as against that as I am the setting specific stuff.

[Yuki Akuma]

These are not core classes in the Player's Handbook. These are special classes designed for a specific setting.

You'll find that classes in setting books tend to have much more setting-specific abilities than the ones in the Player's Handbook.

[Ceiling009]

I don't know if it merits a class feature or not, but in the canon, all waterbenders and firebenders both suffer from lack of bending during eclipses, and gain an edge during their proper times. Most settings, outside the canon, really don't lack a sun or moon, or a plausible eclipse of both, most don't lack a day or night, so, I think its reasonable to leave as a class feature.

[Pirate_King]

Meanwhile, this somewhat pointless argument over something that was pretty much settled some time ago is keeping us from getting through the topic at hand. Can we move on? it's a simple enough mechanic that it shouldn't make that big a deal which version of the rule you use. Back to communal bending?

aside from the waterbending, we haven't seen a lot of communal bending for the purpose of combat, so I think a more defined version of manipulate is in order, with some new seeds that can only be done with multiple benders, because clearly some can only be done with one. Try to imagine golem done with more than one bender; it would be terribly confusing. same with a lot of the fire seeds we've got, there isn't a way to "aid" them, so I think we need some seeds that are purely communal.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Hrm. I have to disagree with you there, PK. Aang and Toph definitely used Catapult in a communal bending effort in Lake Loagai against the Dai Li hanging from the canon wall. If you had asked me what seeds could be done communally, I would not have thought of putting Catapult into the list in a thousand years.

I think the best method was already mentioned, though I can't seem to find where. Communal bending could add a set amount to a bending check for everyone that can make the Base DC of the form and knows the necessary seeds. This will ensure that most instances of communal bending will be low-DC forms done by low-level mooks.

In order to make that work, there would need to be a primary bender (whoever has the highest modifier) and each contributor would add modifiers to the primary bender's Bending check by a set amount. If it can scale, so much the better. A DC10 check could add a +1 to the primary bending check, DC 20 +2, DC25 +3; continuing in increments of 5. Communal bending would be either a readied action OR everyone taking their turns at the same time.

EXAMPLE

Spoiler

Using the builds from the Iconic Characters thread, we'll make a water wave. Katara has a +34 to Waterbending and Aang has a +24 (let's just arbitrarily take these as correct for the example's sake, 'kay?)

Katara and Aang are practicing near the ocean when a Fire Nation Naval Forces ship comes into view. Katara tells Aang to get ready to make a Waveto push it back into some stink 'n' sink mines that Sokka had placed earlier. Aang prepares an action, and Katara takes 10 on her Waterbending check to try and make a Colossal-sized Wave (base DC 15, total DC 45) and easily makes the base DC with a check of 44, but cannot make the full DC alone. Aang also takes 10, getting a check of 34 (fulfilling the base DC), which adds a +4 to the communal check, which is now 48; enough to make a Colossal-sized wave with an effective Strength score of 24 Katara's Wisdom +2) and a total modifier of +23 with Colossal size.

The Fire Nation ships is hit viciously and is pushed back several yards and hits seven or so mines throughout its hull and the crew faints from the smell, so the ship sinks with nobody to man it.

How does that sound? Should there be a clause for level-dependent effects? In the example, this would mean the Wave's range.

[Yuki Akuma]

...Surely it would be easier to simply use the 'Aid Another' mechanics?

[Guyr Adamantine]

Meanwhile, this somewhat pointless argument over something that was pretty much settled some time ago is keeping us from getting through the topic at hand. Can we move on? it's a simple enough mechanic that it shouldn't make that big a deal which version of the rule you use. Back to communal bending?

I mean there is always room for improvements. We shouldn't stop thinking about better ways to make it work.(I'm not acting any badly, I just wanted to tell my opinion.)

Not being able to bend at all while there's an eclipse doesn't seem significant to you?

It is just a plot device, nothing significant.

...Surely it would be easier to simply use the 'Aid Another' mechanics?

Agreed.

[Pirate_King]

I can't remember exactly why we decided that didn't work before, but my take is that aid another just makes something easier, while communal bending would actually make it bigger. We don't want something thats merely the equivalent of making two benders capable of doing something that one strong bender could do, but something that allows multiple benders do something that is completely impossible for one. Under our current bending system, aid another doesn't really do that.

[Yuki Akuma]

Consider, for a moment, what a single really powerful bender (say, the Avatar) can do. Does that really seem too little to you? Benders can get incredibly powerful.

[Eighth_Seraph]

The reason I don't think that the aid another is sufficient for the situation is that it doesn't scale. That, and that Aid Another doesn't have any boundaries that we can apply here. If two powerful benders work together, it should be worth it (at least curcimstantially), as opposed to simply doing the same attack individually. Between those two things, I'd say that it's worth making a new ability.

If there's a worry about breaking benders (again), then remember that even when we took a powerful bender (like the avatar), he only contributed a +4 to the whole check. When we're talking about hordes of mooks (as in the Water Tribes), then I'm okay with massive effects. Remember that Hama showed us in a flashback that her tribe tipped over and froze in place a Fire Nation naval vessel from at least 200 feet. That's powerful. What I've proposed can do that, but, in essence, it's just an expansion of Aid Another.