[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[Pirate_King]

Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma

Consider, for a moment, what a single really powerful bender (say, the Avatar) can do. Does that really seem too little to you? Benders can get incredibly powerful.

That kind of goes without saying, because it's supposed to be impossible to match the Avatar in the Avatar state; his only real advantage when he isn't is that he's three elements up on any other bending master.

I still think we need seeds that only work with multiple benders (which, in essence, is basically what the avatar state does, since it's all the avatars in the cycle channeling through a single body)

[Mephibosheth]

Originally Posted by Guyr Adamantine

Endure Elements: Read Fire in the Stomach, it is pretty much what it should be.

I disagree. I think the two abilities can easily work in tandem with each other. Fire in the Stomach allows a firebender to hold his breath longer than normal, something that the normal Endure Elements class ability cannot do. On the other hand, the Endure Elements class ability only functions between 0 and 100 degrees Fahrenheit while the Fire in the Stomach seed functions at any temperature. I would be open to narrowing the range of functioning for Endure Elements, but I think it’s a good ability. Plus, it helps resolve some of the fire resistance concerns people had about high-level Agni Kai’s.

Originally Posted by Guyr Adamantine

Resistance to Cold: Read #1, or prepare an action to use Fire Burst and reduce damage (By inspiring oneself with the Wall of Fire description.)

Again, I think that the show supports this ability (at least to an extent) and Fire in the Stomach does not reduce cold damage, only damage as a result of exposure to cold environments. I’m not sure how using Fire Burst or Wall of Fire to reduce cold damage would work. Isn’t that what Deflect Attack is for?

We changed the firebender’s Fire Resistance class ability because of concerns about the efficacy of Agni Kai in a system where firebenders can ignore most fire damage anyway. Other methods of overcoming this fire resistance were suggested, but ultimately discarded as unwieldy. I’m open to suggestions for resolving these difficulties, though. Is it the cold resistance that people dislike, or the reduction in fire resistance?

Originally Posted by Guyr Adamantine

This about Fire/Waterbenders: Children of the Sun/Moon should be in a sidebar, as side-rule. It is not significant enough to be a class feature.

I think the Siege of the North, The Puppetmaster, and The Day of Black Sun episodes prove this feature to be significant enough to merit inclusion. If anything, it’s an interesting bit of flavor from the show that isn’t too difficult to incorporate into the game and won’t really slow anything down. I don’t really see a reason not to include it.

I also agree with Yuki that Firebenders and Waterbenders are setting-specific classes and that setting-specific class abilities are completely appropriate for inclusion.

Revised Seed:

Rise with the Tides
Base DC: Varies

Spoiler

Water Spout (Base DC 10): As a move action you lift water in a swirling, spiraling pattern with yourself at the top. This allows you to move straight up or down at a rate of up to 20 ft. A Water Spout lasts as long as you concentrate (a swift action, up to a maximum number of rounds equal to your class level), and you can move up or down as you desire. Your maximum speed increase by 5 ft for every 5 by which your Waterbending check exceeds the base DC.
Column (Base DC 20): As a standard action you create a column of ice underneath a single medium creature or object, causing it to rise quickly into the air. The column has a maximum height of 20 ft, plus 5 ft for every 5 by which the waterbender’s skill check exceeds the base DC. A waterbender can lift larger creatures by increasing the DC by 10 for every size category of the increase. A waterbender can also lift multiple smaller creatures if they would fit within the space of the largest creature the waterbender can lift. A creature can make a Reflex save to avoid being lifted, and must make a DC 10 Balance check to remain standing. Creatures and objects take 4d6 damage if they are caught between the column and a hard ceiling, and must make a DC 20 Strength or Escape Artist check in order to move.

Cooperative Bending:

This is a difficult issue to deal with. I agree that there should be a list of seeds that can be used with cooperative bending, but I do not necessarily support “cooperative bending only” seeds. They would have very limited utility, especially for PC’s, and it would be hard to make the worthwhile investments for limited seeds known.

In general, here’s what I propose:

In certain circumstances, multiple benders can work together to accomplish larger and more powerful feats of bending.

Organization and Action: In any cooperative bending attempt, one bender (usually the highest-level bender, but any bender can be selected) acts as the primary bender for the attempt. The primary bender must know the bending form being used. A number of additional benders equal to half the lead bender’s class level can assist in the cooperative bending attempt. Secondary benders do not need to know the bending form being attempted, but must be able to meet or exceed the base DC of the form.

In order to participate in a cooperative bending attempt, all secondary benders must be within the primary bender’s bending range and must ready an action to assist the primary bender. On the primary bender’s turn, the team may execute the cooperative bending attempt. A cooperative bending attempt counts as a full-round action for the primary bender.

Benders of multiple disciplines can bend cooperatively together, but only if the substance to be manipulated contains bendable material for all participants. For example, a waterbender and an earthbender can work together to bend mud (containing both water and earth).

Check and Benefit: All secondary benders must succeed on a Bending skill check against the base DC of the form being used. All benders who meet or exceed this DC grant the primary bender a bonus to her Bending skill check equal to the secondary bender’s Wisdom modifier. This bonus increases by 1 for every 4 class levels of a given secondary bender. Each secondary bender whose Bending skill check meets or exceeds the seed’s base DC also grants the primary bender a +1 bonus to her class level for the purposes of any level-dependant aspects of the bending seed.

In order to successfully execute a cooperative bending attempt, the primary bender must succeed on a Bending skill check against the DC of the desired form (including all desired augmentations).

Cooperative Bending Seeds:

• Airbender – Air Blast (Push), Air Blast (Gust), Stormwinds, Air Shield (Note: none of these have actually been used in the show cooperatively. This list should be seen as speculative and temporary)
• Earthbendet – Move a Rock, Earth Wall, Tilt, Golem, Catapult, Excavate
• Firebender – Fire Sweep, Wall of Fire, Flamethrower
• Waterbender – Manipulate, Freeze/Melt, Water Shield, Pressure, Propel, Wave, Golem, Rise with the Tides

Example: The North Pole is under attack by the Fire Navy! Pakku the waterbending master (15th level waterbender, Waterbending modifier +27 [18 ranks, +4 wisdom, +3 skill focus, +2 synergy) and five of his students have maneuvered their skiffs out to within range of a Fire navy vessel, and want to encase it in a column of ice. Pakku knows the Rise with the Tides form, but cannot meet the DC 60 check to affect the ship (a Colossal object). His students (5th level Waterbenders with skill modifiers of +13) ready actions to assist him in trapping the ship. On Pakku’s turn, as a full round action, he and all of his students take 10 on their Waterbending checks, resulting in 23 Waterbending checks for all of Pakku’s students (beating the DC 20 base DC for Rise with the Tides (Column)), granting him a +5 bonus to Waterbending checks for each secondary bender(base bonus +4, +1 for 5th level benders). Pakku, with the assistance of his students, is able to make a 62 Waterbending check (37 + 25 (+5/student)) and successfully lift the ship.

Those are my thoughts. I hope everything’s clear. I’ve tried to synthesize a bit from previous suggestions, but I don’t know if I’ve been successful or not. What say you?

Mephibosheth

[ErrantX]

I like the communal bending ideas Meph, it covers the necessary bases and improves vastly on my overly simplified idea. I like.

As far as other topics, one other thing I'd like to add to said topic list is giving the benders an equal amount of seeds, or at least understand why they don't have an equal number.

-X

[Guyr Adamantine]

Originally Posted by Mephibosheth

Mephisobeth debates my comments and crush them, accompanied with some super communal bending rules please!

I understand now your point, but I'll keep some modification on my Firebender sheet.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Originally Posted by ErrantX

As far as other topics, one other thing I'd like to add to said topic list is giving the benders an equal amount of seeds, or at least understand why they don't have an equal number.

I'm pretty sure I remember the question thrown out there of why I changed it. The thing is, I can't recall ever having changed the seed progression in the first place. That being said, if there's a consensus that the progression should be uniform, there's no need to worry about me having a specific reason to make earthbenders slower learners.

On a side-note...

Spoiler

The Savage Tides campaign with my (now 3rd level) waterbender is active again and producing some interesting results. Unfortunately, this may lead to revision of existing seeds; something I'm sure none of us want to go back to. For example, I could have dealt 5d6 damage as a standard action using Ice Shards alone, in a 40-foot line, as a level 2 character with no magic items. The fact that this can be done from a single seed, without any room for interpretation, is a problem. A similar problem occurs with the Tentacle seed, which can be used, at 3rd level, to make five tentacles, each of which deals 1d8+Wis damage on a successful attack. I'm outdamaging the Power Attacking scythe fighter in both cases (as long as the meat shields are making sure I'm not threatened), and that's a problem.
It's definitely not all bad, though. The party appreciates that I can stand watch as a glass cannon without needing to rest for spells, and this combined with my Tentacle/Improved Trip build already saved all of our butts from hungry undead once. Except for the ranger, but he decided to solo some crazy zombie with cleric levels. Nothing I could do about that.

Bottom Line: The basic design of the class fills a role in the party and needs minimal modification. Seeds need to be revised to make sure they're balanced at low levels. I also found that during the fight with the zombie cleric and his horde, I could have done some 8d6 damage in a line with some simple overbending, which would have been fine since this was definitely the last fight of the day. I would like to suggest a clause in the bending overview stating that a bender can only overbend by an amount up to his bending modifier. Should this be in another thread, Meph? I've lost track of all of them.

[Ceiling009]

I don't think the seeds need any real revising, at low levels, you are pretty powerful... with water. You gotta wonder though, what about if you were in an area that didn't have bodies of water? It just that the DMs need to be wary about the real weaknesses of the Classes, anytime they are removed from element, barring air and fire (though those can be done too), the bender is utterly useless. You're still basically a caster, who peaks really early, and basically stays there.

[Mephibosheth]

I'm glad everyone likes my take on cooperative bending. Shall I add it to the official write-up?

I'm not opposed to a uniform "seeds known" progression. Again, is there substantial opposition to this change, or should I add it to the official write-up?

In terms of revising and improving seeds, I have a few comments:

• I'm not at all opposed to going back and looking at the seeds in detail. I want this setting to be as balanced and complete as possible, and these seem like pretty glaring errors.
  
• I'm still not totally pleased with the ranged form of Ice Shards. What if we changed it to the following:
  
  Ranged: By freezing water into a number of small, smooth, thin shards, a waterbender can strike at long range. This seed deals 1d6 damage to all creatures in a line (distance equal to the Waterbender's bending range). Half of this damage is piercing and half is cold. Creatures within the area of this effect can make a Reflex save for half damage. Increasing the damage dealt by this seed adds +4 to the Waterbending DC for each additional +1d6, to a maximum of 1d6/level.
• In regards to the Tentacle seed, what if we simply bumped the base DC's up by 5 and made each additional tentacle require a +10 increase in the base DC? This would allow 1 tentacle at 1st level (DC 15) by taking 10, and an extra tentacle by taking 10 at 5th, 9th, 14th, and 18th levels. Seems more reasonable, eh?
• I also support limiting overbending, as proposed by Eighth_Seraph. Any objections?
• I'm starting to think another round of playtesting is in order. I have some ideas about how to go about it. What says the playground?

How to deal with the lack of water as a balancing factor is tricky. It seems that it's a drawback that's entirely dependent upon the DM, even though carrying waterskins, conserving water, and various proposed (but never really agreed-upon) feats can mitigate this drawback. I'm reluctant to include this as a major balancing consideration, simply because of how circumstantial is can be. I am, however, open to debate.

Finally, what do people think about my re-write of Water Spout (called Rise with the Tides above)?

Mephibosheth

[Pirate_King]

I'd rather make over bending more severe and impossible in non-proficient armour. Or maybe even make it a feat to be able to overbend at all?

[Eighth_Seraph]

No, I definitely think that overbending is a universal thing for benders, and in reality represents something that pretty much everyone can do to some extent. As a martial artist, I've learned to push myself beyond what my body can realistically cope with, allowing me to chain some solid kicks together do some serious damage...for about ten seconds. Then I have to kneel down and catch my breath, or else pass out. It just so happens that our bending system makes this easy to represent, and that we have some apparent precedent from the show to work off of.

Cooperative bending seems very nicely represented, and gives bonuses substantial enough to make it worthwhile for two or three benders. However, I would make it so that everyone cooperating in the attempt needs to know the seeds being used, though. That encourages the use of simple and common seeds in these, like Wave; plus it makes sense. As for the cooperative-able seeds, add a "others can be added, at DM discretion," clause and you're golden.

I like the balancing factor you put into Ice Shards, Meph; it should work well to limit damage. I, however, have a problem with it dealing the damage in a line, for a few reasons. During the zombie fight, my DM didn't let me deal the damage in a line because he ruled that the shards don't penetrate through a creature or fill a square completely like fire does, so I could only deal the damage to a single opponent. Personally, I agree with him. I would say that the way we see Katara using the shards in the show (against Aang and Jet) merits attack rolls more than Reflex saves, as well as accounting for individual shards. Each d6 of damage can represent a shard, and the target area can either be a single opponent or a cone in which the shards can be allocated (my original idea).

As for Tentacle, bumping the DC up is an important start (it stems the level 1 uber-power), but +10 per extra tentacle is too much. +5 would be better, I think. Make it the same for Octopus Form, though I would keep the 'bonus' tentacle you get for using them on the defensive. The seed is also vague as to what kind of action controlling the tentacles is, as well as whether they can be created and used on the same turn. My DM decided that it was a standard action to make them, and a standard action to use and maintain them all.

When it comes to Rise with the Tides, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to represent. I see that it's an icy version of the earthbender's seed; but it would require some very deep ice, and I think that the flavor of the old Spout/Freeze is more appropriate. I much prefer the new name, though, and that, at least, should be kept regardless of whether the seed changes.

[Pirate_King]

Perhaps overbending can be limited so it only goes to failed by 20 instead of 30, with the progression at 2's or 3's instead of 5? Pulling something of for which you failed the DC by more than you could conceivably roll anyway seems a little drastic, at low levels anyway.
Or maybe overbending could be a class feature gained by all benders at a certain level, say 3 or 4. Even as a martial artist, you have to admit you weren't capable of pushing yourself past healthy physical limits until you knew your limits in the first place.

edit: and perhaps add a feat that allows benders to overbend for the purposes of strengthening a seed that has greater effect when they beat the DC by a certain amount.

[Eighth_Seraph]

[DIGRESSION]

Spoiler

...actually, I learned to push myself too hard on accident well before I had any idea what I was doing. I just remember doing a whole bunch of double roundhouse kicks on some weighted targets, followed up with jump kicks on paddles. After forty minutes of similar drills, my instructor took me aside and forced me to sit down before I worked myself to death, since apparently I was working a lot harder than I usually did. I rested for ten minutes then got back into class. I collapsed from exhaustion at the end of class for no apparent reason after all of that.

[/DIGRESSION]

Anywho, I like the current system of overbending; and I do think that the current system has enough checks to keep things balanced; if the most recent factor is added. A fatigued bender can't take 10 and takes a -4 to all bending. After that, Con damage kicks in. This would be a good thing to playtest, though. In a party. In an adventure-esque situation. Let's wake up the ol' playtesting thread, eh?

[Mephibosheth]

Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph

When it comes to Rise with the Tides, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to represent. I see that it's an icy version of the earthbender's seed; but it would require some very deep ice, and I think that the flavor of the old Spout/Freeze is more appropriate. I much prefer the new name, though, and that, at least, should be kept regardless of whether the seed changes.

I was trying to make a seed that could represent represent this waterbending seed and be used cooperatively to do this. Originally I thought that you could combine Water Spout with something to get it, but I think having an official offensive version (much like Steady Stance) makes better sense. Plus, Water Spout just isn't cool/powerful enough to lift ships, even when used cooperatively. It also doesn't consider different sizes the way the new seed does.

I'll respond to the other issues later.

Mephibosheth

[Eighth_Seraph]

...huh. I originally figured that that was just a well placed Manipulate/Freeze by the entire Southern Water Tribe's waterbending force. I see what you're getting at here, and I agree. The addition of a Column clause to Rise with the Tides gets my thumb-up. Sorry if I'm being difficult.

[Darkbane]

I'll give a thumbs up to limiting overbending and bumping Tentacle's DC. I don't have any problems with changing Water Spout or Ice Shards, and I wholeheartedly support another round of playtesting.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Alright, let's worth with the problems, discrepancies, and suggestion I've found or have been brought up in relation to Tentacle and Ice Shards so we can make 'em nice and shiny, without any broken parts.

Tentacle

-Too many tentacles at low levels
-How much water does one tentacle require to make? Specifically, is a waterskin enough?
-Can a waterbender create a tentacle and use it in the same turn?
-Can a tentacle be attacked? If so, how do we handle it?
-Do tentacles threaten?
-Can a tentacle take the same square as an ally? An enemy?

Ice Shards (Ranged)

-Too much damage at low levels
-Do damage dice represent individual shards or the magnitude of the whole shower of shards?
-Reflex save or attack roll?
-Line, cone, or single target?

Surprise guest:
Blue Fire

-A DC increase of +30 for a one step improvement of damage dice? That seems like WAY too much; I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote it. I say we drop it to +10, which makes Azula feasible.

[Guyr Adamantine]

-How much water does one tentacle require to make? Specifically, is a waterskin enough?
-Can a waterbender create a tentacle and use it in the same turn?
-Can a tentacle be attacked? If so, how do we handle it?
-Do tentacles threaten?
-Can a tentacle take the same square as an ally? An enemy?

1. Answers
   How many waterskins is an arm?
   How did we handle the water golem?
   Yup!
   Depends on the size.

-Do damage dice represent individual shards or the magnitude of the whole shower of shards?
-Reflex save or attack roll?
-Line, cone, or single target?

1. Answers
   Depends on the player, but for the purpose of Deflect Arrows, you could always use the thumb rule that one attack roll means they are all part of it, so you deflect the whole attack.
   Attack rolls.
   Individual targets within the cone.

Surprise guest:
Blue Fire
-A DC increase of +30 for a one step improvement of damage dice? That seems like WAY too much; I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote it. I say we drop it to +10, which makes Azula feasible.

Dont! You'll screw my prestige class! Or rather make it a thousand time more effective but everyone will call it munchkin!

[hacim]

a level 20 air bender can launch an opponent less then 200 pounds 400 feet, dealing 40d6, maybe I got some rules wrong or misread, but if not, thats even stronger than coldfire, which can kill any bender in one shot 50% of the time

[Eighth_Seraph]

Well, there are some limiting factors to that.

1. Most adult humans (read: NPCs) will fall between 150 and 250 pounds, plus equipment, which will put the majority of them over that limit. Doesn't really do much against your point, but it's something to consider.
2. Maximum falling damage possible is 20d6 at 200 feet and higher, unless you're landing on something pointy.

What seed are you doing this with, Hacim? We need to know that before we can work on it.

Also, Guyr, when you gave me the 'answers' to my concerns about the Tentacle and Ice Shards, were you answering them officially or casting your vote in that direction? Because Ice Shards no longer uses a cone system as written, though I suggested that it be returned to the old targeting method.

[Guyr Adamantine]

Also, Guyr, when you gave me the 'answers' to my concerns about the Tentacle and Ice Shards, were you answering them officially or casting your vote in that direction? Because Ice Shards no longer uses a cone system as written, though I suggested that it be returned to the old targeting method.

I was merely giving my humble opinion.

[Pirate_King]

Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph

Surprise guest:
Blue Fire

-A DC increase of +30 for a one step improvement of damage dice? That seems like WAY too much; I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote it. I say we drop it to +10, which makes Azula feasible.

I'd say drop it to +20 and have it also deal damage to non-flammable objects(as blue fire seems to blast stone apart, though this could just add the explosion template), and require 6 or 8 ranks in knowledge (bending). We want to make Azula feasible, but not easy. She's all prodigious and stuff.

sorry I don't have much input for the water bending stuff, I've only been playtesting a fire bender, and in a faerun setting at that. It's had some interesting effects, like allowing him to make a firebending check opposed to a spellcaster's normal casting DC to use quench on a fireball.

[Mephibosheth]

Here are my thoughts on Eighth_Seraph's questions:

Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph

Tentacle

-Too many tentacles at low levels
-How much water does one tentacle require to make? Specifically, is a waterskin enough?
-Can a waterbender create a tentacle and use it in the same turn?
-Can a tentacle be attacked? If so, how do we handle it?
-Do tentacles threaten?
-Can a tentacle take the same square as an ally? An enemy?

1. To be frank, this issue should probably be resolved for all of the waterbending seeds. I think that we should use 5 ft cubes instead of any other measure of volume for seeds requiring more than a waterskin, simply because it makes things easier for DM's to map and measure. That said, I think that a single tentacle should require one 5 ft cube of water.
2. I would argue that yes, they can. A waterbender could probably form the tentacle and attack with it in the same action.
3. I think that tentacles can be attacked, and that they have an AC equal to 10+bender's Wisdom modifier+size modifiers, no hardness, and low HP (5-10 per tentacle). Waterbenders can easily form another one (the water used to make the tentacle is still there) anyway. Each tentacle should be attacked individually.
4. Yes.
5. I'd say they can't be in the same square as a creature.

Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph

Ice Shards (Ranged)

-Too much damage at low levels
-Do damage dice represent individual shards or the magnitude of the whole shower of shards?
-Reflex save or attack roll?
-Line, cone, or single target?

1. I support having damage represent a multitude of smaller shards. This differentiates it from the [i]Weapon/I] form of the seed and more accurately represents uses like this.
2. What about both? What if the default version of the seed was a ranged attack, but benders could enhance the DC by +10 or +20 to make it a line?
3. See above, though I don't really support a cone, or the old targeting method (attack rolls for multiple shards on characters within a cone). I can't remember ever seeing a cone in the show, and if we're going to go with attack rolls, I don't see a reason to limit them to within a cone. Without facing rules, it doesn't really make sense, imho.

Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph

Surprise guest:
Blue Fire

-A DC increase of +30 for a one step improvement of damage dice? That seems like WAY too much; I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote it. I say we drop it to +10, which makes Azula feasible.

I could support a DC of +25, but +10 seems too easy. That would allow a firebender to shoot Blue Fire Fire Blasts at DC 15 (i.e. automatically successful at level 1). Blue Fire is supposed to be a pretty intense ability, so I don't want to bring the DC down too far. Honestly, a firebender with a 14 Wisdom can make DC 35 (Fire Blast DC 5, Blue Fire DC +30) by taking 10 at level 14, so it doesn't seem too ridiculous as is.

[ErrantX]

Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph

Tentacle

-Too many tentacles at low levels
-How much water does one tentacle require to make? Specifically, is a waterskin enough?
-Can a waterbender create a tentacle and use it in the same turn?
-Can a tentacle be attacked? If so, how do we handle it?
-Do tentacles threaten?
-Can a tentacle take the same square as an ally? An enemy?

-I support the 5ft cube measurement system.
-Sure, why not?
-I'd say no, due to their not having any minds of their own.
-I don't see why not, it's limited to bending range.

Ice Shards (Ranged)

-Too much damage at low levels
-Do damage dice represent individual shards or the magnitude of the whole shower of shards?
-Reflex save or attack roll?
-Line, cone, or single target?

-Several shards per dice is my vote. They're small enough that it would require 3-6 to do a d6 damage.
-Attack roll, definitely.
-I like the idea that you can shape it with higher DC rolls into a line or possibly a cone, but under normal circumstances I think it should be a single target.

Surprise guest:
Blue Fire

-A DC increase of +30 for a one step improvement of damage dice? That seems like WAY too much; I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote it. I say we drop it to +10, which makes Azula feasible.

Blue fire is supposed to be frightening, I'd say no lower than +20, which I'm in favor off. It's low enough to make it worth it, but high enough to be discouraging right off. To do it reliably you'd have been level 9 or 10, so it's entirely reasonable.

As a side note @ Meph: Any change we could get the bender class posts updated on the board, or are we just having everything updated on the website? Also, are there plans to equalize the number of seeds for each class or are we set on leaving them unequal?

-X

[Pirate_King]

Originally Posted by ErrantX

-Several shards per dice is my vote. They're small enough that it would require 3-6 to do a d6 damage.
-Attack roll, definitely.
-I like the idea that you can shape it with higher DC rolls into a line or possibly a cone, but under normal circumstances I think it should be a single target.

I'm with X on the shards; they're essentially a bunch of darts, and a dart(that isn't made from ice) is D3. The magnitude makes it a D6

[Mephibosheth]

Originally Posted by ErrantX

As a side note @ Meph: Any change we could get the bender class posts updated on the board, or are we just having everything updated on the website? Also, are there plans to equalize the number of seeds for each class or are we set on leaving them unequal?

Sorry, I've gotten a little behind on updating the forum versions. I'll try to get around to that as soon as I can.

As to the equalizations, I'm in favor, and I haven't seen any major disagreement. Again, I'll try to get around to updating soon.

Sorry for falling behind.

Edit: The classes on the front page should be updated. I added Rise with the Tides, changed Ice Shards, and equalized the seeds known. Is there anything I've missed?

Mephibosheth

[Darkbane]

I think the problem Eighth_Seraph was pointing out with Blue Fire is that it doesn't really do very much. Sure, it makes the DC really high, but the only real boost it provides is upping the die size by one and making deflection a bit easier--not a benefit that's really worth the DC bump. So what can we add to Blue Fire to make it more worthwhile?

[ErrantX]

Originally Posted by Darkbane

So what can we add to Blue Fire to make it more worthwhile?

Bypass fire resistance/damage reduction? Save or catch on fire as well? Increase the damage die size by tacking on additional + DC's?

Throwing it out there.

-X

[hacim]

With regard to the air bender air blast, starting at tenth level they can do 20 dice worth of damage to creatures weighing less than 100 pounds, against any small light creature. This would mean, they could do massive amounts of damage with a basic attack, without upping the DC, making it so at mid-levels, if they combine it with other seeds, they can insta-kill any light creature. By 20th level they can use this on any creature less than or equal to 200 pounds. Considering that most characters in the avatar world focus on Dex, defense bonuses and feats, as opposed to physical armor they generally would be lighter than standard D&D characters. This would give air-benders an extraordinarily powerful weapon for nearly nothing. Besides that, it reduces, or even removes a DM's option of adding in a halfling-like race, because it would give the defensively minded air-bender, an attack to rival a fire-bender.

With blue fire you could add a damage die

By the way, I love the Avatar d20 system

[Vadin]

On Blue Fire: Are you looking for something to make it worth the giant +30, or are you looking to make the +10 worthwhile?

On the Air Blast: Why do it by weight, really? How many players actually know how much their character and its gear weighs altogether? Why not just change so it works on objects by weight, but only affects character by size (making weight irrelevant, and making things like powerful build a bit better than currently)?

[Ceiling009]

For Airblast, make it have a reflex save to be affected, same save DC as everything affiliated to bending.

[Goats_o_Mjolnir]

I think the fluff on the firebender entry needs to be altered slightly, watch episode 53 The Firebending Masters, and you'll see that true firebending is about life and positive energy through emotional control, not emotional outbursts, also I think the Sun Warrior should be a PrC