[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II - Page 8

levi · 02-05-2008, 12:58 AM

Wow, a lot's been going on since I last checked out this project. It's nice to have a new thread with all the writeups at the front. So far, all the proposed changes and additions seem pretty good.

I like the new air blast rules. The old ones where so long and complicated that I never really bothered to compleatly understand how they functioned. All the other blasts and basic seeds/forms where easy to understand, but air blast simply went on for paragraphs and I only ever skimmed it.

The other seed rebalancings seem to properly adress the issues that have been brought up. Speaking of which, I'm all in favor of another round of playtesting. (I missed out on the last one.)

The communal bending rules seem pretty solid. They provide a nice ruleset for allowing benders to cooporate. They provide enough of a power increase to make it worthwile, while not being overpowered.

I've only skimmed over the Bending Study feats, but they seem to off to a good start. While it is true that most of their abilities are extrapolations, rather than strictly based on the show, the existance of lighting redirection through Waterbending Study seems to imply that the others should exist, even if there isn't enough background on such things to make them one hundread percent accurate.

Mephibosheth · 02-05-2008, 01:59 PM

Welcome back, Levi. Thanks for the comments. I’m glad people (at least, those who’ve posted so far) approve of the new Air Blast rules.

Another issue I’d like to bring up for discussion is the ability of waterbenders to draw water from the air and from plants/animals (seen here). I propose the following feat to represent this ability:

Where there is life, there is water

Spoiler

To be honest, the amount of water produced by this feat is pretty arbitrary. I’m pleased with the limits of drawing water from the air (Hama only draws a very little bit of water in this manner), but was unsure how to work drawing water from life. This application can clearly supply larger quantities of water, but I wasn’t sure how much. At this point, unless anyone has major objections, I’d say stick with the 5 ft cube measurement.

On that note, here’s my idea for the minimum amount of water each seed should require:

Waterblast –one water skin (or equivalent)
Deflect Attack –one water skin (or equivalent)
Mist – one 5 ft cube – true, the area of the is substantially larger, but the water is also finely dispersed.
Water Whip - one water skin (or equivalent)
Tentacle – one 5 ft cube for Tentacle, two 5 ft cubes for Octopus
Ice Shards - one water skin (or equivalent)
Healing Water - one water skin (or equivalent)
Water Shield – one 5 ft cube for Plane, two 5 ft cubes for Hemisphere
Steady Stance - one water skin (or equivalent)
Rise with the Tides – two 5 ft cubes
Pressure - one water skin (or equivalent)
Water Walk – NA
Propel – NA
Armor – one 5 ft cube
Wave – one 10 ft cube
Golem – one 5 ft cube for Medium, +2 additional 5 ft cubes for each additional size category
Feel the Flow – NA
Plantbending – NA
Blizzard – NA (uses ambient moisture)
Bloodbendint – NA

Just a few things that have been on my mind of late...

Mephibosheth

Guyr Adamantine · 02-05-2008, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Where there is life, there is water

Your version is better. I just couldn't understand why only animals could be affected by Water from Life, it just didn't made sense.

Oh, and the new Air Blast is great.

Mephibosheth · 02-05-2008, 02:31 PM

Thanks for Guyr. I think I'm going to add the new Air Blast and the revised seeds to the front page and the website sometime within the next day or so, unless someone posts major objections between now and then. I'd still kinda like to hear from hacim on this issue...

In other news, you asked for it, and I'm going to try to deliver. I just initiated two new playesting efforts, so run over to "Finding Players" and check them out.

The first is a simple playtesting arena, much like Lord Tataraus' effort earlier. There are a few differences, however. First, of our new content, I'll only be playtesting the bending classes (at least initially). Second, there will be a combination of battles against parties, not just pairs or individual benders. We'll use a combination of NPC's (both bending and non-bending) and already-existing monsters to playtest, hopefully giving us a grounding in already-existing and tested content. Check it out!

The second is an actual campaign, set against the defeat of Chin the Great (see the Avatar Day episode for background info) and the disintegration of his empire. Everyone who wants to roleplay in the Avatar world, here's your chance. Check it out!

Mephibosheth

Guyr Adamantine · 02-05-2008, 03:32 PM

This is gonna be fun...

ErrantX · 02-05-2008, 03:48 PM

I like the feat Meph. Good work.

As far as some topics we have on the burner:

Weapons and Armor Proficiencies: I have no problems with the current weapon/armor profs for the benders as they stand.

Extra attacks: I say no to extra blasts per round, because that would lead to most combat oriented benders being of a two-weapon fighting build. Negative on the cheesing extra attacks. Blasts should be limited to normal iterative attacks based on one's base attack bonus -only-.

Quickening Bending: I'd say tentatively, this is okay provided that the DC jump is high enough to discourage all but the most potent benders from doing it, and only on low DC seeds and forms.

Lavabending: I didn't see a problem with the seed in the first place the way it all was, but here's a crazy idea: Why not allow both Firebenders and Earthbenders to take it? It's a natural fusion of both of their elements. Otherwise, if that's not feasible, I say it has to go with Earthbenders. It's molten -rock-. A firebender could play with it's heat, but once it's out of the volcano, it's earthbending time. A firebender could cause an eruption, but not control it.

-X

Guyr Adamantine · 02-05-2008, 04:28 PM

Lavabending: Earthbender playground.

Quickening Bending: The table Eight Seraph made was great.

Bending and Two-Weapon Fighting, Flurry of Blows, Rapid Shot, and other ways of increasing number of attacks: No way, except for Rapid Shot.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Simple weapons and armor.

ErrantX · 02-05-2008, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guyr Adamantine

Quickening Bending: The table Eight Seraph made was great.

Bending and Two-Weapon Fighting, Flurry of Blows, Rapid Shot, and other ways of increasing number of attacks: No way, except for Rapid Shot.

8thSeraph's table was pretty good, actually. It must be found so we can use it!

As far as Rapid Shot goes, would that stack with Firebender's Firestorm? So a Firebender could pop off an extra 2 attacks at -4? I don't have a strict problem with that, I guess. Rapid Shot oddly doesn't offend me either.

-X

Mephibosheth · 02-05-2008, 05:12 PM

Lavabending: I'm completely on the fence about lavabending. The only example of lavabending in the show is a firebender (shown here). On the other hand, lava is earth, and could make sense as an Earthbender ability. If I had my way, we'd simply scrap the seed until we get some more evidence, but I'm happy to go with the general consensus on this one.

Quickened Bending: I'm with X on this one, especially when I say my support is tentative. I'm only ok with it if the DC increases are large enough to limit it to high level benders. Eighth_Seraph's chart is the right idea, but I think the penalties need to be steeper. I also don't support bending as a Swift action. It just smacks too much of caster cheese to me. How 'bout something like this:

Original Action	New Action	DC Change
Full-Round	Standard	+10
Standard	Move	+20

Edit: FYI, Eighth_Seraph's table

Extra Attacks: I agree. No extra attacks for FoB, TWF, even Rapid Shot.

Weapon Proficiencies: I support the current proficiencies. Bending is grounded in martial arts, and I don't see a reason that needs to be unarmed combat. I also don't see any evidence that soldier NPC's are multiclass bender/fighters. Allowing them to use armor and weapons doesn't really increase their power levels, but it does give them some more options.

Vadin · 02-05-2008, 05:33 PM

This is going to sound weird, but...
what happens when mommy was an Earthbender and daddy moved water?

I'm going to working under the assumption that the benders of the different nations are cross-fertile, of course, but beyond that potential...what happens? Can the kids bend both elements? Probably not, or there would be more Avatars running around. Not at all for one? Seems too boring? Better yet, maybe mostly one and a little bit of the other through traces manifested via the first one. For example...Earth+Fire = Ability to lavabend, Earth+Air = Ability to sandbend, Earth+Water = Some water seeds usable with mud, etc.

Some heritage feats would probably do this nicely (were this implemented).

Ceiling009 · 02-05-2008, 05:33 PM

Actually, I'd allow Rapid Shot to allow an extra attack with blasts, as it is a ranged attack. I mean, they do have medium BAB, so a -2 to get another attack, is a decent minus. I think it's okay, on the other hand, FoB and TWF shouldn't allow extra attacks with blasts, but with unarmed attacks, if for some reason they have it should allow it.

About Hybrid Benders, the show doesn't have any cannon supporting it, but I figure it's more one or the other really, if the child has the ability bend at all, what they could bend would be based on their spirituality, IE, if they're deeply rooted to earth, they're an earthbender, if they're deeply attuned to freedom and air, airbender, so forth and so on. You could always put in heritage feats in the non-canon stuff...

ErrantX · 02-05-2008, 05:41 PM

I like that Quickened Bending chart of yours Meph, because it allows someone to put out two bends at once if they need to at substantial difficulty (one as a standard, one as a move). I'd consider a Quickened Bending feat as well that allows you to do that in the first place, perhaps.

Another topic of discussion: Armored benders? Did we end up deciding anything on that? I'm going to go back and check myself, but was that something we decided on?

-X

P.S. Also, Meph, in the OP under Motion, it specifies Waterbending check when prone, and it should be any bending check.

Guyr Adamantine · 02-05-2008, 06:01 PM

Quote:

New quickened bending table

Ouch, that hurt!

Well, you're the boss.

Mephibosheth · 02-05-2008, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guyr Adamantine

Well, you're the boss.

No, I'm not. This project has progressed far beyond the point where the "leader" (for lack of a better term) has absolute authority. I have definite opinions on how things should be, and I will support them, but I'm more than open to discussion and will go with the consensus. If there is no consensus, or the issue is being ignored, I'll make judgment calls, but I'm not the boss.

On this issue, my problem with Eighth_Seraph's table was that the DC's are low enough to allow low- and moderate-level benders to quicken their bending with a reasonable expectation of success. My fear is the same one I've always had; that benders will replace casters in completely overpowering more conventional characters. I think we've done a great job of preventing that so far, and more playtesting will only make things better, but we need to be careful with things like this.

So, in summary, let's discuss this and arrive at a consensus.

Mephibosheth

Eighth_Seraph · 02-05-2008, 08:28 PM

Interestingly enough, I'm with Meph on severely limiting the benders' ability to quicken their forms. During my playtest of Sokka's Master against a level 20 waterbender, my "make be patient and make sure he doesn't get near the water" strategy was foiled by a swift Wave (Transport). The lesson learned here is that quickened bending allows for some huge cheese when using forms that scale based on class level.

As for the increased amount of blasts per round, I would actually prefer to keep those out of the picture altogether. Regardless of the way this is decided, we still need to make a decision with the firebender. Say, for example, that we have a firebender/monk with Flurry of Blows and a +11/+6/+1 BaB. Firebenders can channel their Fire Blasts through unarmed strikes. I think we can all agree that FoB attack rates for the blasts is too much, but can a firebender in melee make the first three as blasts channeled through his unarmed strikes, then use the attacks left over as normal attacks? I'm actually not opposed to the idea, as it would mean a major loss of damage die for a firebender to go that deeply into the monk class.

ErrantX · 02-05-2008, 09:53 PM

I would simply state in Firestorm that it does not combine with any other method of gaining additional attacks (i.e. two-weapon fighting and flurry of blows). That way we can effectively eliminate loopholes.

-X

Mephibosheth · 02-05-2008, 10:07 PM

The problem I have with that solution is that an overwhelming barrage of quick attacks is the firebender niche. If you allow Rapid Shot and don't allow it to stack with Firestorm, you allow other benders to be just as good at that as firebenders. That's one of the reasons I support not allowing any methods of increasing the number of blasts. It's a simple solution that preserves the roles of the various classes.

My 2 cp on that issue.

Mephibosheth

Pirate_King · 02-06-2008, 01:31 AM

I've stated before that firebenders are unique in that they create their own element. Using a fire blast from each fist would be no different than firing two hand crossbows. With the penalties, what is so terrible about allowing fire blasts as two weapons? Same with fury of blows, and all the penalties would stack. Maybe we could even get rid of the firestorm ability to allow firebenders to use two weapon fighting feats, to showcase that unique quality of firebending, that it comes directly from the bender rather than needing to manipulate outside sources of the element.

exceptions here being sweat bending, (which requires quite a bit of strenuous activity and isn't so much a reliable source) and aang's "breath-ups" on avatar day and fire bending masters (I see his breath as more of a focus for all that air, anyway, rather than the source, there's something to be said about lung capacity)

ErrantX · 02-06-2008, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mephibosheth

The problem I have with that solution is that an overwhelming barrage of quick attacks is the firebender niche. If you allow Rapid Shot and don't allow it to stack with Firestorm, you allow other benders to be just as good at that as firebenders. That's one of the reasons I support not allowing any methods of increasing the number of blasts. It's a simple solution that preserves the roles of the various classes.

That's what I was saying. While Rapid Shot doesn't necessarily offend me, the TWF and FoB methods do, because any combat focused bender is going to take TWF feats regardless of their element. That's not what we're trying to accomplish. To discourage all Benders from taking Rapid Shot as well (because if a feat becomes so good that everyone takes it, and in this case almost everyone would as it's only one feat to gain that extra blast, it's too good IMHO), we should state that the only way for a bender to gain additional blasts is to be a level 6 Firebender. Everyone else can stare with envy.

-X

Pirate_King · 02-06-2008, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantX

To discourage all Benders from taking Rapid Shot as well (because if a feat becomes so good that everyone takes it, and in this case almost everyone would as it's only one feat to gain that extra blast, it's too good IMHO), we should state that the only way for a bender to gain additional blasts is to be a level 6 Firebender. Everyone else can stare with envy.

-X

So what about eliminating firestorm and only allowing firebenders to apply TWF rules? It certainly fits with their abilities with regard to how their element works, and Firestorm does basically imitate using two light weapons with the feat in question. Letting them attack with both hands to start with would be no different, the penalty would balance it.

ErrantX · 02-06-2008, 12:00 PM

Eliminating Firestorm would be bad because that would give the Firebender the potential of having 6 attacks if they built TWF, 3 main hand and 3 off hand attacks when they Greater TWF. Firestorm builds in one additional attack using Rapid Shot-style rules. One extra attack as a class ability is enough of an extra edge, allowing Firebenders to pull off 3 extra attacks would just be too much. That becomes quite a lot of damage by level 9 (when you'd qualify for improved TWF, 4 attacks of 3d6), and deadly by 15 (with greater two-weapon fighting, 6 attacks at 4d6).

-X

Mephibosheth · 02-06-2008, 12:43 PM

I'm with X on the TWF debate. It only really makes sense for firebenders to TWF, and I agree that the feat chain would make firebenders too powerful.

On the Rapid Shot debate, I'm not quite sure what you're saying, X. Are you supporting limiting Rapid Shot to ranged weapons (i.e. not bending blasts) or are you supporting a tweaked rapid shot that works for ranged weapons and Fire Blasts? Or am I missing the point entirely?

ErrantX · 02-06-2008, 12:47 PM

What I'm trying to say is, is that I'm okay with Rapid Shot working with Blasts so long as that's the only feat that does (and would stack with Firestorm), but no two-weapon fighting or FoB. But I'm fine to throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to extra attack feats. If it's an all or nothing situation, then I say nothing. But I'd be fine allowing Rapid Shot, provided everyone gets it.

-X

Ceiling009 · 02-06-2008, 02:36 PM

If you stack the minuses for firestorm and rapid shot, it's a -4 or all the shots... maybe a -2 if you manage to crawl up that entire chain (manyshot is a waste of a feat anyway (for bending... and well even archery...) Personally, I think rapid shot is a viable feat, but you have so little feats to play with as a bender in the first place, so things that you guarantee get are the skill focus feats, a few of the bending specific feats, so rapid shot becoming a hard choice for a feat is a good thing.

Lord Tataraus · 02-06-2008, 05:48 PM

Just to throw my vote out there, ditto X. No TWF or FoB for bending, but Rapid Shot stacking with firestorm to get an extra attack. I think 3/4 BAB and a -2 on all attacks is enough of a penalty to not be something everyone takes. Some benders do better without blasts and going straight battlefield control.

FlyMolo · 02-06-2008, 09:44 PM

In fact, previous playtesting shows that above a certain level, only idiot waterbenders use water blasts. The damage is totally irrelevant. As a 20th level WBender, I used waterblasts to channel Pressure, but otherwise ignored them. Wave and tentacle deal way more damage. Wave+freeze is a win button, and tentacle is also a win button, because of the ambiguity of the rules. There's nothing stopping someone from just making a bunch of them. I don't know if that's been fixed yet, but I hope so. Spamming tentacle+manipulate=An entire arena filled with tentacles. Each grappling, striking, and tripping every round.

@V Well said, Eighth. It clears up one more bit of cheese. RAW, it's broken, RAI, it's cool. Basically, rules about controlling previous created forms need to be clearly written out.

Eighth_Seraph · 02-06-2008, 09:55 PM

I'm completely on the fence here. I'm worried by the possibility for abuse with Rapid Shot, but I know that it'll be cleared up in playtesting, I'm sure.

Again, a question about the firebender arises. If a firebender has more unarmed strikes than he does Fire Blasts due to Flurry of Blows, can the firebender do his full Unarmed Strike flurry full attack while using a Fire Blast for the attacks normally allowed solely by BAB?

Example

Spoiler

I also have a proposal that we start moving deep into flavor-based mechanics for the classes now that we're just applying the spit 'n' polish to the crunch. The first thing I'd like to propose is a Concentration check for firebenders to stop Fire Blasts that miss their target. If the check fails, then the blast continues to the end of the bender's "safe" bending range. There is a precedent*, and I think it's a good way to put the philosophy of fire as a "living" element into the class. The blast would be considered unguided and suffers a 50% miss chance on targets through any squares it passes through, as if the bender were blind. Thoughts?

Molo: That strategy shouldn't be possible. A waterbender must actively control the tentacles she creates, and I meant to write the seed in a way that made implicit that a waterbender can only control as many tentacles as she makes. We'll want to make that explicit, then.

*Many thanks to avatarspiritmedia.net for the dozens of screenshots that Meph and, recently, I have used to illustrate our points for all this time.

Zeal · 02-07-2008, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph

I also have a proposal that we start moving deep into flavor-based mechanics for the classes now that we're just applying the spit 'n' polish to the crunch. The first thing I'd like to propose is a Concentration check for firebenders to stop Fire Blasts that miss their target. If the check fails, then the blast continues to the end of the bender's "safe" bending range. There is a precedent*, and I think it's a good way to put the philosophy of fire as a "living" element into the class. The blast would be considered unguided and suffers a 50% miss chance on targets through any squares it passes through, as if the bender were blind. Thoughts?

I've been following this project for a while now and I'd like to give all of you kudos for your work on the project so far, I've used the classes here for several NPCs and a character and they've worked out well, about on par with ToM classes.

Anyways, to the point I was originally going to make. The missed fire blasts continuing past their intended targets seemed only to apply to Zhou (sp?). If I remember correctly, he was known for a lack of control. This implies overbending to me. The rules you suggested seem to be a good way of handling it.

Guyr Adamantine · 02-07-2008, 09:20 AM

The rules about Firebenders channeling Fire Blasts in their unarmed attacks is not in their descriptions.

EDIT!, great OP!

Pirate_King · 02-07-2008, 10:41 AM

I think a firebender should only be able to "take back" missed shots if he's got the Intensity seed, to use quench. Zhao's lack of control was not paying attention to where he was aiming and the power he applied. Part of a balanced RP character would be knowing when it is safe to use his bending.